Uh, yeah... ICS is an interesting game here too. Mostly though when it comes to searches, WE are the ones who have experience running searches so we're able to convince the "Paid" folks that we're the best resources for the IC team. We have several folks who do a great job being IC and when they show up most other agencies either defer or create a unified command with us. Actually, the Park Service is the worst at letting go the reigns even though, surprisingly, most of them are way less qualified at running searches. The FD is next in line because IC originated with the FD and therefore they still feel like they own it. The 212th are Feds so we can't even participate... they keep to themselves. The Troopers will usually let us step in once their CO tells them they have to (since we are part of the Troopers), and all the other search groups tend to be grateful when we show up. Yes, IC can get interesting.

Spare me reading back through these posts.
What is ICS? or IC?
Thanks.

ICS = Incident Command System

IC = Incident Commander

This is the structure that is used to organize major events. It is standardized nationally (through FEMA) so anyone from any organization can jump in and play. That doesn't mean it always WORKS right... the system only works as well as the experience of the people participating.

MNS

I had to smile when I read this (I am retired NPS myself), but I encountered the same situation in Arizona. It will vary from park to park, depending to a large extent on staff personalities. Rangers are basically generalists, doing a lot more than SAR, but usually not getting as much experience as the local volunteer group.

It always puzzles me when turf concerns trump safety/welfare considerations.

This is precisely what caused me to leave. I was a member of a local dive S&R team for years, serving a stint as Capt, and also on the board of directors. The level of experience on that team (excluding myself) far surpasses any of the SO, PD, and FD teams. In fact a couple of it's senior members trained the leaders of their teams. They are well equiped and ready to go on short notice, at virtually no cost to the public.

After 911 and the formation of Homeland Security, the competition for grant money, became a big money grab. We were viewed as the competition and would only get called once the agencies abandoned their searches. It didn't help matters when on a few occasions, we were successful where they had failed. We were always gracious and never made a big deal about it.

The breaking point, for me, was when a teenager jumped off a cliff and never surfaced. It was a holiday weekend and we had volunteered to post divers at one of the popular parks. When the call went out, we informed them that we had divers geared and available. We were ignored and after the SO realized they couldn't mobilize a team until the next morning, we were called at 8 PM that evening. I lived within 15 minutes of the site and when I arrived, the game warden had found her body with a grappling hook. The mother was on-site and I will never forget the sound of her wailing. I cannot believe that they (SO) were willing to put off the search until the next day

Now, I only do Dive RESCUE , for a National boat racing association. No turf wars there and we are always welcomed.

So I just got back from the overnight training. 24 hours of maps, GPS and searching for a "suicidal" victim found hanging from a pine tree (someone's stuffed animal) and a couple of relatives who went out looking for "her" and got lost themselves. We also got to play with everyone's gear and learned basic firebuilding with about a zillion different starters. All the "career" SAR guys were terribly impressed... by the guy with the poncho tarp. Yep, we have an ultralight backpacker in our midst and he brought his alcohol stove and poncho tarp, and all the SAR dudes totally raved about it. Oh, they liked my basic tarp setup like a flying diamond all right, but the poncho got the attention.

The rest of the newbies are folks who think a five pound tent is light. I mentioned that I had five pounds of hammock, tarp and quilts that would be lots more comfortable than a five pound tent, two pound pad and two pound sleeping bag - that brought out the anti-hammock mockery. Next training I'm taking the hammock and keeping them awake with my snoring instead of sitting in the grass under a tarp while the dew collects on my face.

Man, ya got that right! Plus, the grant receiving entities will use you in drills to check off the required boxes, in order to keep their grant funded jobs...and you won't get a stitch of information again until the next drill.
This soured me on the entire Homeland Security bill..."contractors" are getting rich selling stuff via grants. That 'stuff' was not needed and mostly sits there taking up resources. Don't get me started! (i've done the rescue diver thing too.)
Fact remains...."Professionals" (law enforcement, FD, etc.) would rather not have "amateurs" in the mix, unless they absolutely have to have us.

Yes, you hit the nail on the head. The majority of my fellow rescue divers at the boat races are SO, FD, PD, and EMS, and they are a 1st class group of individuals. They thrive on keeping things within their comfort circle and don't like letting outsiders in. I guess because I have been doing it longer than they have, I somehow fit in.

SAR groups are like compost piles. They work best with the addition of new material....

Well, I think we've just about beaten the whole SAR turf wars thread tangent to death, LOL... it's pretty clear that SAR varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and it sounds like the team Lori is training with is pretty well established. I'm interested in hearing more as her story develops, especially the introduction of lighter gear to the SAR kit.

As a side note, most SAR teams have, or are adopting, SAR TECH II certification as a minimum requirement for operation-level members. SAR TECH II is a standard curriculum taught by NASAR. Part of their requirement is to carry a kit as they specify in the training (including 2 quarters to use in that payphone that you'll find on top of the mountain or in the middle of the wilderness), so the lightweight mantra may still take a few years to integrate.

Lori: any more training experiences?

MNS

One of the trainers mentioned the NASAR list - told us to google it. I wondered what the quarters were for! LOL!

I went today to a couple hours of walking around with a GPS with the main trainer. I told her I was looking at the 18 oz Tarptent Sublite for a couple of reasons, my own included, and I emailed Henry asking if he would do a group or SAR discount. The trainer was very interested especially since we tend to search all night and sleep a few hours in the morning (the premise being that people stop walking at night). The tyvek Sublite would provide shade without heating up like nylon does, and it would fend off rain well enough for a nap. It also works with the poles we all carry anyway. She tends to carry a full tent with her as she is like me, not really into hedging bets and preferring bugnetting.

She also was impressed by the poncho tarp but did say it would be shredded in minutes and the guy would be out an expensive poncho if he did wear it for rain gear - all the grid searching is through whatever is there, teams crawl through manzanita if they have to.

I'm probably heading up to the military surplus for pants and possibly some shirts - no sense shredding my nice light zipoffs. Might look at the rain options there as well.

Having been in several S&R training days & nights and one S&R in NW Pennsylvania I have some opinions on the gear needed.

Search & rescue gear, like military gear, needs to be robust and utterly reliable. Dri-Ducks do NOT fall under that definition. Even under other clothing I doubt they would hold up to repeated use.

Mountaineering clothing and gear will do fine and can be used for winter camping. And, of course, new or good surplus military gear will work just fine.

Eric

Yup... still tuning up the gear list, but I definitely have a trip to military surplus ahead of me. Not going to be relying on anything I want to keep for leisure backpacking for this sort of endeavor... Winter certs are a long way away for me, we have training once a month, so it's going to be a while for gearing up.