...and never the twain shall meet, or so it seems on lightweight forums. We're all in one of these "camps" and once we gravitate there, we tend to stay. Why I dunno.

But I think Henry Shires over at TarpTent, and the folks at a few of the other cottage tentmakers seem to have convinced a few to their way of thinking with their beautiful, UL silnylon creations.

TARPING> I understand the romance of tarping. Learning a variety of tarp configurations is very handy. I've done most from airy to nailed down for snowstorms. It's cool (sometimes literally) but I've long ago become a tenter.

TENTING> Good tents are fast to set up and bugproof. Single wall tents are light and, if well designed, cool and don't get much condensation in MOST situations. I love to see well designed tents in use. They are clever sculptures in fabric. My NF Tadpole is a good example.

HAMMOCKS> And, though I've slept in canvass hammocks aboard a tall ship I crewed on for three summers (U.S. Brig Niagara) I just can't understand backpack hammocking UNLESS I'm in a wet jungle or swamp.

Hammockers, enlighten me.

Eric

BTW, Who knows, someday we may see a Tarptent hammock that has an innovative design answering a hammocker's many needs. Who knows...

A more accurate description of my hammock is a suspended tent. Basically I have a single person tent with a large rainfly that happens to not touch the ground. It is very stable, dry, and bug free unlike what most would think of if I just said a hammock. The biggest difference between the hammock and tent is comfort; I sleep better in my hammock than I do in bed. Does this help?

OK, that does not seem like that much of an answer.

Labor Day weekend I hiked with 3 guys. At a potential campsite they rolled out pads to test for level, rotated the pads, walked in circles and scratched their heads. In the mean time I have found my 2 trees and marked them with hiking poles and rigged the group bear bag. After a conference they decided that the site was OK. They started putting up their tents. I hung my hammock and fly, laid out my quilt, then went for water. They were still rigging their tent when I returned.

We got a light rain at about dinner time. I cooked under my rain fly sitting in my hammock. They stood under a tree with their rain jackets on and watched their stoves.

I had to wake up a couple of guys the next morning. They said that they had only slept about a half hour at a time and not gotten much sleep. I had the food returned to camp and the bear bag gear stowed before they crawled out of their tents.

The rain pack up technique is the same bor both shelters. You pack either under your hammock rain fly or in the tent then quickly put the wet shelter in the outside mesh pocket. There is much more room under the hammock rain fly and I do not need to crawl around.

During bug season I use a Warbonnett BlackBird, but prefer the Claytor No Net.

I figure that normally I carry about a pound more to sleep in a hammock. The complete weight of the Claytor No Net, MacCat Deluxe rain fly and pads is 58.4 oz. A TarpTent Sublite, 60" Big Agnes Insulated Air Core and Ridgerest ground cloth is 56.7 oz.

For a thru-hiker a hammock is probably not much of an advantage. When I hike in the desert I sleep well on the ground AFTER the second night. The big advantage is that it allows us week-end warriors to sleep well.

IMO tents have an advantage for snow camping. Hammocks can not take advantage of the insulation from snow.

Shelters are like all our gear-- it needs to be matched to the hike. I primarily use a hammock, but I also use tents when they work better. I guess I do not understand the gear polarization

Like "Food" said, comfort. I don't think I've camped in a tent in 15 years. Hammocks just suit me..I sleep better in a hammock than my bed at home. I didn't become curious about hammocks because of backpacking/camping. While in Cozumel, Mexico, I visited our guide's home and there were net hammocks strung up all over, no beds. So, I bought a couple and tried them...then took them camping. There is one on my back porch now. I considered the Mexican hammocks a bit on the heavy side and made my own from ripstop, using a plastic tarp as a fly.
Then Hennessey came along and that's what I've been using.
The fact that you can pitch them on the ground like a tent is an added benefit, if you run out of trees.
As "food" indicated, its quite nice not having any ground concerns at all. As long as you have rope long enough to connect two trees, you're good. My wife loves 'em too.

In a tent, I was cold, sore, and tired - did not sleep a wink at night, rolled around all night trying to be comfortable, ended up frustrated and contemplating a very heavy down mat and a very expensive non-mummy bag.

In a hammock, I sleep all night, unless there are random noises to wake me up. I don't need the bag. I don't need a flat spot. I don't sleep in a banana shape, roll around all night, or get cold.

Recently I picked up a NeoAir as I was going over the Sierra Crest and the chances were good that I would end up on the ground under my tarp somewhere. I did, and while it wasn't as bad as the 1.5" pad on the ground, and I did get some sleep, it's not as good as the hammock. I didn't need to use the hammock as a bivy as the bugs are mostly gone late season. Since there are some regions where it may be harder (not impossible, just harder than I care to fiddle with) to hang a hammock, I am contemplating a tarp tent in addition to it. However - for trips several nights long, where most nights I will be able to hang, you can bet I'll be out in the hammock. Any night spent off the ground is one where I'll get a full eight hours in comfort.

Hammocks do get a lot of sarcastic comments out here in Cali, but as long as I'm sleeping I don't care about skepticism from my hiking group about falling out or getting blown around in the wind. I'm the one sleeping comfortably, waking early, and sipping coffee as the sun rises and they're all moaning about getting up. I was perfectly stable and hardly swaying in the wind while a friend's tent was flapping and straining at the stakes - pitched the hammock head into the wind, staked the tarp to the ground with the end closed, no problem. Cooked on my alcohol stove under the tarp in the dead space while the wind howled. Another campout, a friend had to pack up the muddy, tracked-in-wet-leaves tent to take home to wash and dry - my gear never hit the wet ground. My pack hangs with me in a gear hammock, my clothes are in the hammock shelf (only the Blackbird has a shelf, there are hammocks with pockets) and my shoes sit in the middle of the 10x10 dry spot under my tarp. Everything packs under the tarp and stays dry, and the tarp comes down last to be tucked in a side pocket.

On a recent three day, a friend who will swear by tents because he doesn't like bugs got ants in his tent. I've never had ants or other bugs in the hammock. I treat the straps with permethrin.

Actually, once someone is interested in a hammock, 8 times out of 10, they sell the tent and never look back. You may never understand until you try it, but the difference between a camping hammock and sleeping on the ground is night and day. Some people don't care to bother figuring it out, for others it's the solution to enjoying backpacking without soreness and suffering, so is it any wonder they embrace it like a religion? I wouldn't be backpacking otherwise.

So, lori and food described my sentiments. I do it for comfort. Someday I may have enough cash for a DAM, and then I can compare. But, sleeping on the ground has never been fun for me.

Lori you hammock camp in california? Whats the highest you have hammocked in the sierras? Also what was the lowest temperature? Oh and do you use and under quilt?
I have thought about getting a hammock for sometime now. I like the option for sleeping well at night, and when trees cant be found just pitch the rain fly. Every time i go hiking i always seem to spot a place where a hammock could be hung.

Thanks

Ps- i use a tarp, its floor-less and also serves as my poncho. Light, multi purpose. I also made a light bug-netting that keeps bugs out.

The set up you describe is a mirror image of mine, with the exception of a Warbonnet SuperFly for my tarp.

The Tarptent Sublite, as dear to my heart as it is, cannot compete with hammocks. Even in winter i will be using my Warbonnet or Claytor No-Net with and under quilt. More room, comfort and ease of use with very little weight penalty. As winter sets in, you will end up saving weight with a hammock over a traditional 4 season tent set up with thicker pads.

BF

I learn something from everyone I hike with. I am looking forward to the PNW hike.

I have never slept in the Sublite. I got it as a dedicated Grand Canyon tent and loaned it to a guy for my May Canyon trip then he borrowed it again for a Labor Day mountain trip.

I set up the hammock at 10,000 feet just east of Donahue Pass, between a couple of small high elevation trees in the subalpine meadows. I would have gotten through the wind okay except it was the beginning of that storm that blew through the first week of August - the trees were stablized by my weight in the hammock but not enough to keep the tarp from flapping around and keeping me awake. Since I was relatively certain it was weather and not just high altitude wind, I didn't want to just take down the tarp, so took everything down and pitched the MacCat in a flying diamond pointed into the wind. I had the NeoAir and was fine until about 2 am when a fierce gust snatched the tarp D rings off the groundhogs - note to self, put bigger rocks on the stakes when winds are 40-50 mph!

If I had been by myself I would have simply headlamped off into the night in search of a more sheltered spot, but I would have been out of sight of the tent dweller group I was with. I usually use a JRB underquilt but this was one of those multi-9000ft+-pass outings, and I felt the pads would make it easier. Temps routinely dip into the 30s and the JRB 3 season quilts are more than adequate to the task. I will be going out in October to high elevation Sequoia NP, and anticipate using both quilts, the Neo Air, a GG 1/4" foam pad, and possibly a tarp tent, depending on whether I can get myself another job soon.

I don't buy into the "one or the other" syndrome. I have used and continue to use tarps, tents, and hammocks in different situations. For no bugs, super light trips I take a tarp. For trips with my family I usually take a tent as it is significantly lighter for me than putting all of us in hammocks. (I'm the pack mule for the family). For winter trips in Minnesota I go with a tent or even build an igloo if we aren't moving every day. For a good nights sleep, a dry spot to store gear or cook, a comfy chair, and just plain coolness I take a hammock. For all three I keep tweaking, looking for the best combination of gear that gives me a light load and a comfortable nights sleep.

As funny as it sounds, i've never slept in one, either and i co-designed the darn thing based on my old TNF Dandelion tent!
http://www.freewebs.com/bigfootpictures/unknownorthfacetent.htm
Never even seen one up close. I'm much happier in my Blackbird than any tent i've ever used, though. The only type of tent that i would even remotely be interested in would be a teepee or 'mid style for winter camping (Golite, Oware, MLD, etc).

BF

I'll add my $0.02 to Lori's comments regarding elevation and temps.

While I haven't come anywhere close to 10,000 feet I have been down to 23F in my hammock.

I used a 3/8" ccf pad, with a fleece blanket on top of it, RayWay alpine quilt, layers of clothing and emergency reflective blanket on the outside. All covered by a home made tarp pulled down tight. I would have used the same gear if I had been in a tent.

I now have a Exped DAM 7 and really enjoy it in the hammock. I use it partially inflated and it really adds some welcome degrees. I also have a home made "hammock sock" that can add 5-7 degrees.

As others have said, I use a hammock for comfort.

I also have tents and use them when the need arises. Those times are getting fewer and farther apart.

My son also uses a hammock and prefers it. He's trying to convert others in our troop.

Tango

I am trying to decide if i want to use a hammock on a thru hike or not. I fell asleep in one last night...with a little help. I am sure after a long day of hiking it would be like sleeping on a cloud. Heck my sleeping pad feels that good...until i wake up at 1 in the morning.

See i am going to attempt to thru hike the pct next season. Plan on test running a bunch of gear later this month, maybe a hammock will be included. Can i rent on from anywhere?
Thanks

I concur completely. I do spent the majority of my trips in the hammock but not all. I tent in the winter. I tent if I'm a lot of time above treeline, I tarp it if I'm trying to go really light and there are no bugs, etc.


Now as for being enlightend? well Eric, you just have to try it. You can't be enlightened until you do, and you'll either like it or not. This is not your bend in the middle ship hammock, a good camping hammock you can lie flat in.

My two big reasons:

1) Comfort.

2) Epic Camp sites and morning views from in your bag you just can't get in a tent:

Yep, I swing both ways too. Or is it all three ways? I sometimes use just a bivy which is neither tarp, tent nor hammock.

I use a hammock when it's practical. When it's not I'm on the ground.

When I'm on the ground I use a tarp when it's practical. When it's not I use a tent.

That sums it up for me.

I haven't tried camping in a hammock, but I get very uncomfortable after 15-20 minutes in the backyard variety. Primarily, I need a bug-free space for me and my dog, and for that reason I need a tent--preferably a Tarptent with lots of ventilation and views out more than the door. My dog is part of my sleep system (keeps my feet warm), and if he were separated from me, both of us would whine all night! I may switch to a tarp for fall camping, once the bugs are all gone (they appear still to be lingering in the Cascades).

An insulated air pad takes care of the unpleasantness of sleeping on the ground. Food, I found your friends' "committee" (remember the one about the camel being a horse that was invented by a committee?) approach to putting up their tent really amusing. I can get my tent up in less than 5 minutes, including removing major sticks and stones from the tent site. No, I don't cook or eat in my tent and I recommend you not cook or eat in your hammock, either, unless you want a bear passing in the middle of the night to think you're a burrito.

In the end, each of us picks the style that suits us as individuals. HYOH, YMMV and all that.

Here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxevtxnkmkk

BF

Hiking HQ has a hammock 101 section. I found it helpful.

I gave up tents years ago for the flexibility of tarps. A few months ago I finally took the plunge and bought my first backpacking hammock. I bought an Eagle's Nest Outfitters' Single Nest and I had the first good night's sleep while backpacking ever!

I took it with me this past week on a four night excursion to North Manitou Island and slept wonderfully all four nights. My two frequent backpacking buddies had advised me that I should try placing my ridgerest closed cell pad under me in the hammock to combat cooler weather. They were right on target! I used my 40 degree bag like a quilt to cover me on top; the only time I ever got cold was when I moved about in my sleep and raised the edge of my bag. Last night when I got home I even found myself wishing I could set up my hammock in the bedroom, as I found my Sleep Number bed to be less comfortable!

I will continue with ways to extend the range of my hammock, like I did on the last night of our North Manitou trip, where I set up my tarp over it in case of rain. We lucked out and had no rain, but it set up with far less paracord than I would normally use and only two stakes!

For those few of you on TLB with a Warbonnet hammock, here's how to convert it to 4 seasons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvWKmjFHvdQ&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hammockforums.net%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D10646&feature=player_embedded#t=88

I'm DROOLING

BF

I believe I've been enlightened... enlightened but not sold. Thank you all for the information. I noticed the word COMFORT kept appearing in many posts. Being a confirmed Hedonist I may just give a hammock a try - again.

Eric

Don't forget to lie kitty corner in the hammock to avoid feeling like a banana

Bananas? We haven't done those have we?

Yes, lying correctly in the hammock will make or break the experience.

I think that lying straight in the thing for the first night would probably break you from ever doing that again. I use a hammock but not every time I go out. I have a tent and I have a tarp and I use them all at one time or the other..I like my hammock set-up and if I could get my wife to go that way too I would use it more often....sabre11004....

I try to lay on a diagonal when I sleep in my hammock. Problem is I can't control how much I toss and turn all night long. I can't get comfortable no matter what I am sleeping in. For those of you that can just stay in one position all night you are lucky

I dunno, I probably look like a sack of mad cats when I'm asleep in my hammock. What kind of hammock are you tossing in?

While reading about "sleeping diagonally" in a hammock I thought, "Gee, why not use hiking poles for spreader bars at each end, kinda like the TT Rainbow does, only captured in a fabric tube."

Is this a bad idea? My L.L. Bean rope hammock has wooden spreader bars and I love 'em. Obviously this would have to be designed in from the inception - (wouldn't it?)

Eric

WBBB and a Speer..doesn't matter. I can be in my tarptent and still do that

There are a variety of hammock designs that use spreader bars including bridge hammocks. The problem is that no matter how you spread the ends of a regular hammock it will still sag in the middle, causing you to look like a banana if you sleep straight. By sleeping on the diagonal, across the curve, you can find a place that is, if not completely flat, pretty darn close. In contrast, bridge hammocks work like a suspension bridge with the support, and its curve, above you.

That's called a bridge hammock, and the design is more like a fabric bathtub than a gathered end.

Jacks R Better has one - http://www.jacksrbetter.com/BMBH.htm

So the Jacks 'R Better Bridge hammock uses extra tubes you have to carry.

Does any hammock maker utilize hiking poles?

Eric

Same as Ewker here.
I appreciate how so many hammockers are bewildered that not everybody is in love with their particular contraption, but as a dedicated tosser (you knew that) AND turner my brief experience with the HH Ultralite ( or similar name...) was not my cup of tea, possibly because I usually drink coffee when hiking.
Franco

The poles are optional - you can use your trekking poles, I believe.

I can appreciate (certainly!) that some do not like/get hammocks... I hike with an older gent who is convinced he will get motion sickness, and that after meeting someone who reports severe motion sickness and yet she sleeps in a Hennessy. What I don't understand are the legions of people who have not TRIED them, who will post time after time that hammocks are cold, make you banana-ish, are not feasible at all, blah blah blah. The only other pieces of gear I've seen dismissed out of hand this way are water filters and alcohol stoves. One by folks who don't think backcountry water sources are contaminated, the other by folks who are either all about convenience or taken in by another set of myths.

Most of the common complaints about hammocks are not true, or are only true if you do not bother to do ANY research at all and just go pick up whatever hammock is cheap. All you have to have to be warm in a hammock in normal 3 season conditions is the stuff you used in the tent - pad and sleeping bag. You are simply using them a little differently - deflate the thermarest a bit, open the bag and use it like a quilt.

Lori, I hear what you are saying. It is a fascinating phenomenon. I also agree that it is similar to the complaints about alcohol stoves. We hear how they don't work in the cold, etc... I disagree about it being similar to the filter debate since I have not seen any research or data to support the contention that the backcountry water IS indeed contaminated. I once asked a water quality researcher about the water in the adirondacks and he was unaware of even any studies concerning biological pathogens like giardia or crypto. All research seemed to be about acid rain, and the ecological health of the system.

Secondly my experience (which is limited to the Adirondacks, forests along the FLT, Allegany in PA, Algonquin in Ont) tell me differently. Apparently I do everything wrong since I sleep in a hammock (even in winter), use an alcohol stove (even in winter), and drink water right from the source without treating it. Of course I have the experience, and knowledge to back up my gear choices. Thus I do not recommend others just do what I do.

Lori, not sure who you are directing that too but my comment was about tossing and turning all night long no matter if I am in a tent or a hammock.

Yes you can use a pad and sleeping bag (as a quilt) and sleep in a hammock but there is more to it than that. A hammock takes a lot more tweaking than a tent does. I have used a tent for yrs and have tried the hammock for the past 2-3 yrs. There is still tweaking that goes on even now. I never noticed I was doing that until a person said I wouldn't mind trying a hammock but you are always adjusting it in some way and I do. There are folks who say they can hang it right the first time. I don't totally agree with that since every hanging situation is different (unless you never get out of your backyard like some do).

The main thing is that folks should get out and enjoy being out in the woods. Who cares what you use for a shelter. Seems it does to some and that applies to tenters and hammockers alike.

I am almost positive that its the person. I mean i can sleep just about anywhere. Hammocks and tents are fairly intuitive and don't require a whole lot of tweeking. Now i have just set up a hammock in the back yard and at the local lake, but i have never had problems with how i hang it. Same with the tent, you face the correct direction to the and if you need to repitch before bed. Then again this is for me and i am not picky.

I really want to get into hammock camping, i just dont have the funds and just got a new ground dwelling set up(which i like).

To me there is a difference between a "should I get a tent/hammock/tarp" thread and a "what hammock should I get ?"
I think that is fair enough for me (anybody) to state why hammocks don't work for me ( apart from in the afternoon sun in my backyard) in the former, however I never post comments on the latter type. Same for bivvies/tarps and various other shelters I don't like.
I also get annoyed with some that jump in with negative comments every time a brand or a type of gear is mentioned.
(including people that have a go at ultralighters IN the ultralighter specific forums)
Franco
BTW, I use and enjoy, the Caldera Cone (alcohol) and don't usually purify my water either.

Many will point you in the direction of http://www.imrisk.com/testhammock/testhammock.htm to make a test hammock. It is a great idea. I would suggest for $10-$15 more get a "travel hammock". I think the company is now called Grand Trunk something or other. I still have my original travel hammock. It goes in my day hike pack for those times I find a place I want to just relax. Nice to sit in for lunch too.

I must be doing something wrong, then. I don't tweak. I set up the hammock and sleep in it. Sometimes the trees are closer together or further apart, but that just does not seem to matter a bit. I hang, put on the underquilt, throw in the top quilt and clothes, and go fishing. If it looks cloudy or it will be very cold at night I put up the tarp too. When I started using figure nines on the tarp, someone asked if I enjoyed all the adjusting - I told her no, but it was my first time, and five or six setups from now, I would be enjoying other things a lot sooner. I was right.

I watched someone put up a tarptent this weekend. It looked dead simple too. However, the pitch was not taut at all, and I think he was lucky there was not any serious wind or rain. I've seen some loose tent flies on REI Half Dome tents. Everything needs tweaking, not everything gets it. Some things are subject to more expectations than others.



It doesn't matter to me what people use - I go out with tarpers, tenters and hammockers alike. It's just interesting that there is this perception that hammocking is like rocket science or something, when it's really more a matter of what you are willing to do, and what motivates you to do it.

From what I've experienced and seen, tents seem to me on a par with the tweakage, if you really intend to set them up to be weather-worthy. And setting up a tarp is simple until the conditions change - I watched someone fighting for an hour and a half to nail down the tie outs and edges of a spinnaker tarp in the wind. She's now shopping for a tent. Then there's a guy I hike with frequently who usually takes a bivy - he brought an ENO and hung with me, for the first time, with his thermarest and sleeping bag. He did it "all wrong" - trees were too close together, not enough sag, and he didn't have a tarp, even. He said he was comfortable. I certainly didn't lecture him on the use of tree straps or how banana shaped he looked in the hammock - he was fine with it, okay, so am I. The lady with the spinnaker tarp, unlike so many with spinnaker tarps who are satisfied, is driven elsewhere by tweaking. The bivy dweller with the hammock hung all wrong is fine. The difference in tweak factor has nothing to do with the hammock, tarp, or bivy. It's what they are willing to tolerate.

weather worthy tarps take tweeking, yes. I just cant believe people get worked up about what kinda of shelter, skis, clothing etc people use. I dont like blind criticism.
Anyway...i was thinking of making a test hammock. If i like it ill get a speer.

HAha more talk...uh pea-pod or yeti? GO!

i'm intrigued, so started checking out suppliers. i have no idea if i'll like hammocking or not - how good are these?
http://www.gofastandlight.com/NO-SEE-UM-Mesh-Tent-Hammock/productinfo/HA-E-NOSEE/

the price certainly is nice.

Yer keerect about "what you're willing to tolerate" Lori. I just bought a Tarptent Moment B/C it looks dead easy to pitch completely taught every time.

My former TT Contrail was easy to pitch but took, as you say, some "tweaking" to get nice and tight. And tarps ALWAYS take tweaking to get them right. But when they are right they are really nice.

I have to find someone with a good backpacking hammock to test it out. When I slept on a ship's hammock I was dead tired and just getting horizontal was enough to put me to sleep.

Eric

It weighs the same as a Blackbird, it doesn't look like it's been shaped to be on the diagonal, it has additional rope ties on the netting instead of an integrated ridgeline (an integrated ridgeline will also help you get the same amount of sag in the hammock every time), and it looks a lot like Speer's expedition hammock. 57 inches is narrow for a hammock that isn't shaped for a flat lay, if you want that. Also you'll need to buy tree straps for it, and a tarp.

But, a lot of people like Speer style hammocks. They work as well as any other, and better than some.

Well, if you ever get to Central California, I go out every single month. A post asking to try someone's hammock at hammockforums will net you invites to the hangouts, but many of those are on the east coast.

I agree with Lori in that all shelters have some sort of tweaking that goes on as you learn about them. With hammocking the under insulation has been the thing that I've had to tweak the most. I would think site selection is pretty big in tweaking tent and tarp setups. You don't want slopes or areas that collect or funnel water.

I've had very little trouble getting a good hang out of my blackbird but it has a set ridgeline that makes it pretty easy.

KY Chris

So speer hammocks aren't diagonal sleeping hammocks?

I need someone to explain a BB vs and speer. Does the double layer of the BB really help? I have a hard time paying 160 for just hammock.

A double layer gives you a place to put the pad. Throwing the pad in a single layer works, but I can tell you from experience that if you use a quilt and don't have something between your base layer and the pad, you'll stick to ccf. Pads also have a habit of shifting on you, or in the case of a thermarest a little too well inflated, squirt out from under you; the pad pocket defeats this tendency. In a tent, I was the one rolling off the pad; in a hammock, I didn't have a lot of trouble with a ccf even in the Hennessy, other than my long johns sticking to it. I could have fixed that with a sleeve made of ripstop over the pad, but chose the Blackbird for additional reasons.

A Blackbird has a footbox to make it easier to put yourself on the diagonal. Most gathered end hammocks have a "ridge" that can be dealt with by laying on the diagonal, and the wider the hammock/the more sag you use, the easier this is.

The Blackbird has tie outs, a shelf, a lot of room (least claustrophobic I've encountered), a fixed ridgeline (sets the sag of the hammock regardless of the distance between trees), and a full bugnet with a full length zipper that's integrated in such a way that it doesn't impact the lay of the hammock whether you actually zip up at night or throw the netting back. (Last six overnights I haven't bothered to zip up.) The rings/straps of the Blackbird (on the strap option) are easier to fiddle with to raise/lower or center the hammock - but any hammock can be updated to rings or a ring buckle on the suspension with little effort.

Speer type hammocks are fairly simple and lack a lot of the features possible with the Blackbird. Brandon also customizes the Blackbird - puts the footbox on the other side if you want, or uses heavier or lighter material you provide, etc.

I can tell you that if you order a Blackbird and don't like it, you can make a little money - they disappear off ebay for more than you pay new. Some people don't like the waiting list. I watched one sell at hammockforums.net within an hour of posting - bam, gone.

This is not to sell you on the hammock - I just have no experience with a Speer. Lots of people like the Speer just fine. I just have no reason to get one now that I have a Blackbird, no weight savings there to be had, nor does it have some of the other features I've grown accustomed to having. If I were to recommend to someone who has no inclination to tweak or geek on the hammock, it would be a Blackbird every time, simply because it's so straightforward, no knots to tie, good workmanship, and the strap option has worked so well with our huge California pines, firs and cedars.

Speer hammocks are end gathered hammocks and are designed to slept in diagonally. This is also the simplist form of hammock to make for yourself. The Blackbird is an asymetrical hammock with side pull outs. It is unique in that it has a foot box and shelf.

I see. I really like multi use gear. Like i have the gatewood cape as rain gear and a tarp...really more like a floorless tent. I was thinking of making an 8x8 tarp to be a rain fly and a poncho. The big problem is i am not sure how much protection a 8x8 offers. I know the 8x10s are great but may be to large to make a poncho? What might be some thoughts on this issue?

Ill add almost three pounds if i switch to a hammock.
Speer set up-38oz
under quilt- 12-17oz
rain gear-14z
Oh yes and the comfort factor is worth the weight, just trying to keep it light and safe.

I am open to trying out new ways, but I have yet to see either a tarp or a hammock being used by anyone else on any of my backcountry trips. The vast majority of my trips are within 50 miles of the Continental Divide from Colorado to British Columbia. When I have tarped, I have been the only one.

Click the link in my signature and look at some real weights. I use a speer type hammock and have for years. I sleep diagonally in it just fine. My speer weighs 731 grams all in. My tarp with stakes and lines for overtop of it weighs 616 grams. I don't use an underquilt. I use a wide blue foam pad (about 250 grams) in the hammock and an integral designs silponcho (262 grams) as an underhammock windblock which I can also stuff insulation into (such as space blankets or some poly batt insulation). Heck, ask food - he saw me three purposing it last week, and I was warm down to the low 40's in nasty wind with no insulation other than the pad and the poncho

But don't get me wrong. Hammocks are *heavier* I could take the same rig and save the 700 grams of the hammock and sleep on the ground. I just would not be as comfortable. If you have a light pad that you can sleep on comfortably, you will have a lighter load with a tarp or solo tent than you will a hammock. On the other hand you won't get me out of my hammock usually except for weather below -10C, or a distinct lack of trees.

Oh yeah my pack weight might be around yours. I like the idea of using poncho as a wind breaking "taco". The only reason i consider weight is because i am attempting the PCT this coming summer and pack weight is kinda important. I think it would be wicked to hike the PCT in comfort and style

What I have decided is to see the benefit cost ratio. Like if i sleep so well in a hammock I can pump out more mile because I am rested. I my mind I say yes, but in practice this might not be true. I just plan on buying a hammock and doing a few over nights, then put it in really test for a week long. Basically I plan on using the hammock for all other backpacking trips.

I also can decide on trying out an air sleep pad for my ground set up...maybe ill sleep just as well

Phat what might be the reason that you dont use an under quilt? I plan on using a sleeping pad regardless if i get an under quilt or not. Also what the dimensions of your tarp? Its great because you are using all the idea with the space blankets and batting with the "taco". How is that working out, any problems or tip?

Weight will be important to you on a PCT hike, but I think if you ask some of the experienced thu-hiker types here (I am not one of them) you'll find they tend to keep a few creature comforts and not go for strictly the lightest weight possible on a long hike like that.



If you are thinking benefit/cost or benefit/weight I think you are on the right track.



I don't use an underquilt for three main reasons

1) It's a heavy, single use piece of gear. My blue pad is lighter by a lot, and my poncho is used for more than one thing. Oh, my blue pad is also my packframe...

2) I can (and semi regularly do) go to ground and sleep under my tarp on my trekking poles on the blue pad. This is very useful when I'm on a multi-day trip with a day or two above treeline.

3) I've figured out how to stay warm without it!


tips? Try it first on short trips, make sure your insulation goes up high enough on the sides to warm your love handles.

Note, my poncho works well for this because it is an integral designs silponcho which has a stretchy shockcord sewn in the bottom hem of the poncho. this means that one end gets tied tight to one end of the hammock with cord, the other end is tied by the shockcords and stretches..

Cool, good info.
Not sure i have love handles...

I might just stick to home made gear and test it all this winter... ill have to post my set up when i get it worked out.

Thanks

I disagree with you on this point, buddy. I use a Jacks-R-Better No Sniveller and it is both my 3 season under quilt AND my puffy insulation jacket when the weather gets colder.

http://www.jacksrbetter.com/Wearable%20Quilts.htm

You are correct when you say that hammocks and under quilts are heavy when compared to a plain old ground set up ( tarp, quilt/bag and pad), but i find that the weight penalty is minimal. In my case, about a pound was added by using my hammock/under quilt/tarp combo versus a pad/quilt/tent. But, BOY AM I SLEEPING BETTER

BF

I also think that some under quilts like the yeti aren't all that heavy around 12oz? Also you can still use an UQ on the ground...under the sleeping bag

Yeah my problem is i have a very light ground system ha ha, not to bad of a weight increase, possibly around 2-3lbs. For sure ill try and find light weight ways of staying warm.

Hammock ships monday

Waste of a quilt - the compression will do away with any warmth. Put it over the sleeping bag, it will do you some good. Get a better pad or add a foam pad for more warmth underneath.

Oh... i ment above the user and under the sleeping bag...like a liner.
Anyway camped out along the river last night though i was in a rope hammock we all slept well with i nice brisk jump off the bridge into the river...good morning wake up.

You can add me as a newbie hammocker. I ordered my double 1.7 Blackbird last weekend, two weeks for delivery. Although it would have been of little use on my recent adventure, 9 nights on the ground in Grand Canyon sold me. The jury will be out, but I was determined to try something different.

Umm . . . where are you going to find hanging opportunities in GC??

A decent tarp like the Speer Winter Tarp makes for MUCH better room than a tent. A simple lift with trekking poles creates a very spacious front porch from within a hammock.



This setup allowed for excellent views of the surrounding area and withstood two nights of significant thunderstorms this past weekend.

Same place I found to hang above 10,000 feet - in trees. It only takes two.

You'd be surprised at the places hammockers find to hang. Sometimes you can make do with a couple rocks. Some hammockers take pads just in case and bivy on the ground. It all depends...

Not likely or at least a pretty low percentage of the time. That's why I said it would have been of little use.

I did however get some very creative ideas from the HF bunch, using rock climbing gear as anchors and anchoring one tree to another for reinforcement. In reality, in GC along the river, it would have been a challenge, not impossible.

My GG White Lightening, which I did use in GC, will be a perfect fit for my new hammock and will remain my shelter of choice in the desert. I do like that "front porch" idea.

Keith,

I have hung in the Grand Canyon. The corridor and threshold areas are not hammock friendly. It helps to hike solo.

On a river trip a hammock stand would be worth it.

Got my speer hammock in the other day. Haven't been able to set it up because the tree trunks in my backyard are much to big. I might go to the local lake and try it out there.

I am rigging up an underquilt from a existing down quilt at home. It covers from my head to my feet. As far a i can tell i dont think i want to try a synthetic UQ but u may rig my synthetic sleeping quilt in the same way.

CANT WAIT!