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#120387 - 09/05/09 10:36 PM Ethics of buying equipment
Hobblit Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 19
Loc: Vermont
This is related to my post below. Let's say that there is only one gear store near you. Naturally you go there to see what they have. You try on a few packs, ask lots of questions, end up taking up lots of a salesperson's time.

Unfortunately this is an expensive store. So you go home and find your pack at Campmor for 40% off.

So what is our obligation to buy from our local store?

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#120389 - 09/05/09 11:08 PM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: Hobblit]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Depends how much I like having a local store in the area. For 40%, I might not decide I like it that much, on the other hand one thing you could do, is at least give them a chance. Go back in and say "Hey, I found the same pack for XXX at Campmor online, can you do anything for me?"

You never know, they might drop a bunch off. even if it's not everything, remember you have shipping to deal with, and the whole local store thing..

If they won't move on price it's an easier decision to make.

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#120390 - 09/05/09 11:21 PM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: Hobblit]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
Just realize that yes, you can save money by shopping online.

But there is the other side: if they go out of business you won't have a "run to" shop for last minute items like fuel.

It is something to ponder.

Where I live I buy nearly everything online....we don't have local stores. To get fuel I have to drive 30 to 45 minutes!
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#120405 - 09/06/09 12:35 AM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: Hobblit]
Echterling Offline
member

Registered: 08/21/09
Posts: 52
Loc: USA
I regularly spend far more for a piece of gear at a trusted store than I would online.

Why?

My time has value.

I know the sales guys spend a lot of time doing the research, using the gear, etc, and I can trust their opinions. The cost of my time to do all that would be more expensive.

I also like to be able to try things on, customize fit of packs, play with a tent, etc before I make a decision. I can't do that at an online store. I can also take gear home the same day from a brick and mortar shop. I value those things, so I pay for those things.

That isn't to say online isn't useful. If there are specialty items that the local store can't carry, then I have to go online to get it.

So, my advice is this: if you value the services you were provided, then pay for it. If all you care about is price, then stop using the brick and mortar store if they are more expensive.
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#120412 - 09/06/09 07:20 AM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: Echterling]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
Your local store must be very different than mine. In mine, the salespeople do not have very much experience with all the gear. they *might* have experience with what they happen to own, but I have found I spend much more time out in the woods and trying out different gear than they do. Another difference is selection, my local has very little except for the most popular brands/designs. Of course this perpetuates the cycle. Rarely is the gear I use, except for the small stuff, found in your standard brick and mortar. They can't carry the selection.

I agree with you about if the store provides a service, in mine they do not and I have gone to some in many other cities and have found them similar. It is not necessarily their fault.

Like you, my time is valuable; I save time by ordering online. I place my order and go about my business and they deliver.
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#120414 - 09/06/09 07:25 AM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: Hobblit]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
I agree with everyone else: if you're going to use the local store for advice, browsing, and tryout, I think you need to be buying things there if they carry them. They're not in business for their health, any more than you go to work every day just to pass the time.

I don't think you have an obligation, if they're not carrying something you want, to ask them to special order it. However, it's always an option.

I like Phat's idea of going to the store and giving them a chance to price match.

Also, if you buy online to take advantage of "rewards" such as REI's dividend or Moosejaw's Reward Points, talk to you dealer - maybe they'll make you a similar deal (Will you give me 10% off if I spend more than $500 here in the next 6 months?) My local store didn't wait to be asked; they set up their own reward program, giving store credit. I redeemed my $50, and spent some more while I was at it.

I still shop online, but I only buy stuff they don't carry.

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#120418 - 09/06/09 09:10 AM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: Glenn]
PerryMK Online   content
member

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 1391
Loc: Florida panhandle
Originally Posted By Glenn
I like Phat's idea of going to the store and giving them a chance to price match.


Factor in to that price match the cost of 3D preview of items.

I prefer buying locally (for what little I buy) for the preview factor. (try on, feel, see quality, etc.). I also prefer US made goods whenever possible. This isn't an anti-foreign sentiment on my part. Just like buying local supports local business and jobs and enhances my life when I want to see something firsthand, buying US made goods does on a larger scale. I suppose if I lived in France I'd be more inclined to buy French goods.

My 2¢


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#120419 - 09/06/09 09:43 AM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: PerryMK]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
Like you, Perry, I try to buy US made goods too. Most however cannot be found in the stores as these manufacturers are often cottage industries; some are even 1-man operations.
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#120420 - 09/06/09 09:47 AM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: DTape]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
Originally Posted By DTape
some are even 1-man operations.

Some are even one-woman operations wink
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#120421 - 09/06/09 09:57 AM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: sarbar]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
Originally Posted By sarbar
Originally Posted By DTape
some are even 1-man operations.

Some are even one-woman operations wink


Ya know, I thought about going back and fixing that. Thanks. wink

Oh, check your PMs.
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#120422 - 09/06/09 10:01 AM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: Hobblit]
Keith Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 1667
Loc: Michigan's Upper Peninsula
Originally Posted By Pinecone
This is related to my post below. Let's say that there is only one gear store near you. Naturally you go there to see what they have. You try on a few packs, ask lots of questions, end up taking up lots of a salesperson's time.

Unfortunately this is an expensive store. So you go home and find your pack at Campmor for 40% off.

So what is our obligation to buy from our local store?


I'll try to answer in terms of the ethical question you raised. What it boils down to is that you are consuming services that you are not paying for.

Ethics is not about some ethereal, other-worldly approach to life -- it is about what is best for everyone over the long haul. The situation you describe is a short term advantage to you (until the store goes out of business) and both a short and long term loss to the store owner/employees and a long term loss to you.

I realize there are nuances that affect how this plays out -- maybe the store doesn't have/can't get your size/color/etc. Or, they are truly ignorant or have done something else not to deserve your business. Maybe they just don't have what you want. There are all kinds of good reasons not to spend you money at a particular store. I just don't think the scenario you have proposed is one of them.

FWIW my $.02 happy
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Human Resources Memo: Floggings will continue until morale improves.

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#120425 - 09/06/09 11:55 AM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: Keith]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

I don't think one need feel "guilty" about shopping online. I don't. I still do buy stuff locally, but the major stores where I live (MEC, Coast Mountain Sports, and Campers Village) for the most part do not cater to the lightweight crowd. MEC can sometimes do ok, (and sometimes they make some really nice gear that is very inexpensive) but they have a nasty habit of "herblocking" it, so something that starts out as a nice well thoought out piece of lightweight gear gets "yuppiefied" and has a lot of useless junk added on or changed.

In spite of the fact that a few (I recall mugs's "keep it pure" rant fondly) of us bemoan the fact that lightweight backpacking is becoming more and more mainstream, You still need to face the fact that most of the Big Box stores make their dollars doing two things:

1) selling heavyweight gear to people who come in and want to go backpacking, and want to carry everything "just in case"

2) Selling outdoor looking clothing to city dwellers who don't want to look like they are golfing when wearing casual clothing.

So me personally, yes I still buy stuff at the local stores, but I'm pretty vocal to them about it if they aren't meeting my needs. and things sometimes change - just bear in mind that doing that will require you voting with your feet on some purchases, and if the store is expensive, don't feel bad about it. The availablility of cottage industries on the internet is also a blessing, so support both.

_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#120430 - 09/06/09 12:31 PM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: Hobblit]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
I would feel guilty sucking up a local store's time asking about gear and then buying somewhere else.

That's why I don't do it.

IMO there are enough gear review sites out there to supply me with all the useful info I need. A few times in the past, I've posted here for information and opinions on potential purchases.

I don't buy anything online until I've done my online research.




_________________________
If you only travel on sunny days you will never reach your destination.*

* May not apply at certain latitudes in Canada and elsewhere.

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#120431 - 09/06/09 12:35 PM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: Hobblit]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
I support local stores if the price is within 10%. I also will use local stores if the item is one that really needs to be felt, tried on, etc. If we do not support local stores there soon will not be any local stores. I also watch sales at local stores - if you are patient, you often can get just as good a deal. I probably buy about 70% of my gear locally. Shipping costs are getting quite high and if you have to return something and pay shipping, soon you are not saving that much.

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#120432 - 09/06/09 01:11 PM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: Trailrunner]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
It kind of depends on the nature of the local store.

If it's a locally owned hiking/backpacking/mountaineering shop with high expertise, I'd patronize it, especially if it carries lightweight gear (not many do). You did utilize their skills and time, and that is worth the extra $30 (remember that Campmor's price doesn't include shipping), if what they have is what you want. It's well worth the extra money just to have the local store! Also note that the Campmor pack is undoubtedly a prior year's version on closeout so is probably not exactly the same pack that you tried on in the store (most manufacturers tweak their models frequently). If so, you may need to spend another $10 to send it back. About that time, the store's price won't look unreasonable. A small local store generally runs on a very tight budget for overhead and will suffer a loss from significant time spent with non-buying customers. In other words, if you spent an hour being fitted and then don't buy their pack, you have caused them to suffer an economic loss--akin to stealing. This would be fine if none of their merchandise met your needs, but in this case you're just trying to get the same pack cheaper.

If, on the other hand, the store is a branch of a national chain store (like REI, alias Really Expensive Items), I don't hesitate to walk out without buying anything even if they've spent a lot of time with me. I make it clear to the staff that what they have does not meet my needs, and why. As Phat says, they make their money from high-volume sales elsewhere (selling "sports" clothing and loading down unwitting beginners with super-heavy "traditional" gear while lightening their wallets). Unlike the locally-owned store, the chain store has budgeted plenty of overhead for time spent with non-buying customers, a miniscule amount compared with their total sales volume.
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#120436 - 09/06/09 01:38 PM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: Hobblit]
aimless Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3292
Loc: Portland, OR
So what is our obligation to buy from our local store?

The way you phrased your question shows the answer you'd prefer to get, but as most here have pointed out the amount of help you received from the store's staff and from directly trying on what it carries in stock is worth something to you. As you learn to appreciate that value, you will understand the need to reciprocate it, by becoming a valued customer.

There's no hard and fast rule about what you are "obliged" to do in return for their aid and assistance. Just recognize it for what it is and do what your heart tells you is best.

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#120441 - 09/06/09 02:15 PM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: Hobblit]
Pika Offline
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1814
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
I think that we all know what the word "fair" means. If you try to be fair with your local retailer then you are doing the right thing. If you know, or feel, that you are taking advantage of the local retailer then you may want to rethink your approach to buying equipment.

For me, the nearest good gear store is Summit Hut, in Tucson, about 40 miles away. Because of the distance, it is easier for me to buy on line if I know enough about what I am buying. If I need to look at an item, need to compare items, or need advice, I go to Summit Hut. If they are significantly helpful then I will buy the item from them. But, I will not let their clerks spend a lot of time with me and then buy the item cheaper on line. That is not fair.
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#120485 - 09/07/09 05:04 PM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: Hobblit]
Howie Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 481
Loc: Canora, SK, Canada
I have no qualms about buying stuff online. However, for me going into the stores and seeing what they have is more fun. So far I have found stores that carry a quality selection and have staff that know their business. Anytime I visit a large city I like to go out and kick some tires. In Vancouver BC, Canada there must be about a half a dozen hiking stores located on Broadway Street within a couple of blocks of each other. When I was looking for my first backpack I went to a store in Vancouver where they were having a sale. The young salesman there actually told me not to waste my money buying from him but to go to MEC. It has been my experience that there is a comradery among hikers that transcends the money making aspect of things. Hikers I meet have been happy to share what they know and make good recommendations. Many of these fellow hikers work in hiking retail.

Howie

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#120488 - 09/07/09 05:49 PM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: OregonMouse]
OldScout Offline
member

Registered: 03/17/03
Posts: 501
Loc: Puget Sound, Washington
Originally Posted By OregonMouse
In other words, if you spent an hour being fitted and then don't buy their pack, you have caused them to suffer an economic loss--akin to stealing.


While I agree with most of what everyone said (and I live on an island so I am no stranger to internet sales), I think this is really overstating it. How have I caused them "economic harm" if the salesperson is just standing around there anyway? What if I'm just standing around and shooting the breeze talking about the weather and the [insert your local professional sports team] for an hour, am I still "stealing." What if I haven't prevented them from making any other sales? OK, I'm hanging out at the mall because I got dragged there by my wife, am I "stealing" because I kill time at the local "anything" store? Where is your bright line? Is it ok to ask the salesperson any questions? What about 30 minutes? What about 15 minutes. At what point does legitimate curousity about a product tip into "stealing." BTW, when did "stealing" become acceptable if you do it to a chain store instead of a locally-owned store?

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#120491 - 09/07/09 06:28 PM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: OldScout]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
You have a point. A good salesperson will manage all his (or her) customers to the betterment of the store. That means if it appears that you simply are pumping for information and others are waiting in line, you may be "put on hold" for a while. The person who looks like he is going to buy probably will get most the attention. I think the only "stealing" is if you monopolize the sales person to the detriment of others when you have no intention of buying.

I have such poor luck with internet buying that I usually go to a regular store. In fact, my luck is so bad at either internet or store sales that I am about to do a lot more making of my own gear. All the "specfications" in the world do less for me than actually feeling and trying on the gear. But the brick and morter store is no sure thing either - they never have my size.

I am lucky- TarpTent is a 45 minute drive from my house! Wish other small manufacturers were so close. Because of internet shopping, most stores now have a much reduced inventory for us to look at. It is just a matter of time and I think most regular stores will be reduced to a kiosk for internet buying with a few gear gurus around to help out.

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#120572 - 09/08/09 09:21 PM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: Howie]
trekkin Offline
member

Registered: 02/05/07
Posts: 19
Loc: PNW
I own a small retail sales/service shop in a non-outdoors field, one in which a lot of people buy on the web instead.
We are trained specialists in our field, so often shoppers come in and pick our brains and try out our equipment, and then go away "to think about it", never to be seen again. In some cases they might have gone home, surfed the web, and bought the item cheaper, although it obviously was not the same one they tried so might have performed differently.

All I can say is that:
1. Yes we are responsive if someone approaches us with a valid web comparison. Sometimes we will match the price. Sometimes I will just say "I don't want to win the race to the bottom", and send them on their way.
2. To distinguish ourselves from the web we offer a year guarantee on our products (repair or replace). The only way we can do that is to offer quality stuff, and pretty soon people figure out that we don't sell any crap, and we start to get a loyal following.
3. We present a lot of products that are not available on the web, or at the very least the name is different.
4. We remember our loyal customers and do a lot of favors for them, like free adjustments, staying open late or opening on a normally closed day, or calling them when we find something special that they might like. In fact, more often than not we give them a little something (a discount or a freebie) to say thank you.
4. Conversely, we also remember the people who waste our time and buy elsewhere. They can fool us once, but the next time they come in we are liable to show them directly to the door.

So, there are two sides to this problem. You can develop a mutually beneficial relationship with a local mercant who knows your name, pays attention to your needs and works with you, or you can alienate them and they will avoid helping you in the future. Your choice.

Good luck getting help with your problems on the web. Good luck even getting the name of a real person that is willing to help you. Not the kind of world I would wish for.

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#120587 - 09/09/09 07:05 AM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: trekkin]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Originally Posted By trekkin
Good luck getting help with your problems on the web. Good luck even getting the name of a real person that is willing to help you. Not the kind of world I would wish for.


Great post and I agreed with everything down to here. Some web merchants do fit this description, maybe even the majority. BUT, some cottage manufacturers provide very good customer service. Six Moon Designs, Gossamer Gear, TarpTent, Mountain Laurel Designs, Trail Designs, zpacks, Jacks'R'Better, and OES have all given me exceptional customer service.



Edited by food (09/09/09 02:38 PM)
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#120593 - 09/09/09 09:21 AM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: trekkin]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By trekkin


Good luck getting help with your problems on the web. Good luck even getting the name of a real person that is willing to help you. Not the kind of world I would wish for.


I have emailed Grant Sible and each time he responds within hours. Gossamer Gear has excellent service, replaced the handles on my Lightreks free after critters gnawed them - absolutely tops. Good gear.

Same with the Jacks at Jacks R Better. Quick response, personable, professional. Maybe backpacking gear makers are just better all around because they're backpackers and I have yet to meet a rude or uptight backpacker?

Komperdell - nope. Not even a number to call. Granite Gear? Great service. It all depends on the company.
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#120960 - 09/15/09 08:37 AM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: ringtail]
ltwt Offline
member

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 28
Loc: MI
It's just a fact that today a business has to cope with internet sales. It doesn't do any good to wine and complain about it. Instead you need to spend your time thinking about how you can better service your target customer or you'll be out of business. As a 'store front' operation think about how to better advertise and how to provide better customer service. You're wasting your time remembering who's been in before and kicking them out. confused

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#120963 - 09/15/09 10:36 AM Re: Ethics of buying equipment [Re: ltwt]
Keith Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 1667
Loc: Michigan's Upper Peninsula
You are absolutely right that stores need to think about how they compete in an internet age. However, the original question was about what responsibility the customer may have. It takes all parties or stakeholders to make a system work.

In that sense, customers shouldn't whine when they no longer have brick and mortar stores to go into because they took the short-term advantage of saving a few nickels on the internet. The point was not so much that we as customers don't have options that we can exercise but that to go into a store , take the salesperson's time, try on an item and then directly walk out and buy the item online is abusing the system.

I'm not for making a whole list of rules, but I am for calling a spade a spade as far as recognizing that some people abuse the system. I also am for encouraging a reasonable sense of fair play and responsibility on the part of customers.
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