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#117657 - 06/26/09 12:10 AM Re: how many days in your bear can? [Re: lori]
Pat-trick Offline
member

Registered: 06/22/09
Posts: 175
Loc: Portland, OR
It's easy to say "I've got excellent medical coverage, blah blah blah..." so maybe this will sound more convincing: every 3 months I see my medical doctor who spends about 30 minutes with me. I have a complete blood workup. He physically exams and test me. I'm scheduled for an another echo cardiogram to see how much heart function there is, and where it is, and to compare the results to my last one, three years ago. Are you people doctors?
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#117658 - 06/26/09 12:41 AM Re: how many days in your bear can? [Re: Pat-trick]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By Pat-trick
It's easy to say "I've got excellent medical coverage, blah blah blah..." so maybe this will sound more convincing: every 3 months I see my medical doctor who spends about 30 minutes with me. I have a complete blood workup. He physically exams and test me. I'm scheduled for an another echo cardiogram to see how much heart function there is, and where it is, and to compare the results to my last one, three years ago. Are you people doctors?


Does your doctor know you are following advice from a book? Does he/she approve?

I am not a doctor but I do know that if I do not have adequate fats and calories and protein, I will need one very soon. Hiking has altered my metabolism - I do it every week. I eat more, drink more, and need more than I used to. And I do discuss everything with my doctor and she approves.

Look - no one is criticizing your choice. It's your choice to make. Call it concerned questioning, because I don't understand the reasoning behind your theories. I've often seen the harm it can do, trying to use some book written by some guy - anyone can write a book. Anyone can claim people with blood type O needs to eat more grains than proteins, or only eat grapefruit to lose a lot of weight fast - oh, there are some fascinating reads on the used bookshelves.

If the book you're living by meets your doctor's approval and it makes you healthier, more power to you. I'm all for being healthy. It just doesn't sound right to me to deprive a human body of the things we know it needs, especially when I've only needed MORE of those things, not less, since I've started this whole hiking adventure. Not to mention all the other more experienced hikers on whose experience I draw to inform my own endeavors - no one is focused on decreasing oils in the diet, they are instead focused on increasing caloric intake in the most compact fashion.
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#117660 - 06/26/09 08:30 AM Re: how many days in your bear can? [Re: lori]
Pat-trick Offline
member

Registered: 06/22/09
Posts: 175
Loc: Portland, OR
"Does your doctor know you are following advice from a book? Does he/she approve?"

Yes, I've told my doctors about Dr. Ornish, and the higher they are paid, the less they care. In other words, my surgeons have never heard of him. At least they wouldn't admit to it. I get my healthcare through the VA system. The problem with Ornish is, people get better without surgery, and that's a LOT of money being diverted from surgical teams and hospitals. He's not embraced generally by the medical community for this reason, I think. The VA in particular is about 20 years behind the times in terms of adjusting to what research shows, I thought. It's a bureacracy. Change takes time.

"I am not a doctor but I do know that if I do not have adequate fats and calories and protein, I will need one very soon."

What is your source for knowing that you need to eat fats, besides the ones found naturally in food? I would like to go to it myself.

"Look - no one is criticizing your choice."

Really. From this end, it feels like I'm being pounded. I thought about it, and decided it's not about the oil, it's about my stupid attempt at humour with my signature: "stop the world and half you people get off". It would probably be a funnier play on the original to say, "stop the world, and all you people get off".

"It's your choice to make. Call it concerned questioning, because I don't understand the reasoning behind your theories."

Now it's "my theories". The VA's official recommendation for oil is 20% of calories from fat/oil. Ornish's program found that limiting it to 10% resulted in cardiac arteries opening. Since I have CAD (Coronary Artery Disease), I decided to do the 10% thing. The VA doctors do not hold Dr. Ornish in high regard, and some have not even heard of him. Their "antennae" are not tuned to research that saves money, or that is not thoroughly "gold standard". The gold standard is bypass surgery and drugs. Diet is a minor component, almost an afterthought, of their care of me. Anyway, this is not supposed to be a medical forum, so let me make a few remarks to answer the genuine concern that is I hope is driving this whole conversation.

1. In a previous post I pasted a link to an interview of Ornish, but I failed to mention that in the interview he said he did not advocate not using oil. He said he did recommend some kind of fish oil for Omega-3's. He talks about different diets for different people, for example a prevention diet, or a reversal diet. Heart patients have other needs, to limit the consumption of cholesterol, for example, for exercise, for a peaceful home, good relations, etc.
2. I have not specifically told my doctors that I am not consuming olive oil.
3. To satisfy the concerns expressed here, I will buy a bottle of evoo tomorrow and start using to sautee my onions and garlic and herbs.
4. On my next visit to the doctor (it's coming up soon), I will ask him about the oil thing.
5. Between now and that visit, I will look into the oil thing. If you have knowledgeable sources of information concerning the need for oil in the diet, I'd like to hear it so I can read it, too.
6. I think reading books is a good way to get information. Did you know that doctors had to read a whole bunch of books in order to become doctors? I myself have taken the pre-med curriculum in college, and everything was in books. Big books. Expensive books. But books they were, and it's okay to read books and learn from them, in my opinion.

"I've often seen the harm it can do, trying to use some book written by some guy - anyone can write a book. Anyone can claim people with blood type O needs to eat more grains than proteins, or only eat grapefruit to lose a lot of weight fast - oh, there are some fascinating reads on the used bookshelves."

I know. I must come across as pretty dumb. I'm not sure how to change that.

"If the book you're living by meets your doctor's approval and it makes you healthier, more power to you."

I've always considered that I make my own decisions, even in health care. I don't blindly submit to anything a doctor recommends. I think about what he/she is saying, I read the research, and I make up my own mind. I do thoroughly discuss things with my doctors, and grille them until I am satisfied that I have the information I need to make an informed choice. That includes questioning their suggestions. To make you happy, I will ask his suggestion about oil, and I will re-read what Ornish is saying. I trust him because he bases his suggestions on what the research is saying, not what the capitalist medical industry is selling. Oh good, now we're going into politics.

"I'm all for being healthy. It just doesn't sound right to me to deprive a human body of the things we know it needs"

Is this still about oil? "The things it needs"??? Surely folks are not against being a vegetarian? Against daily exercise? Against stress management? Against social support? That's all that Ornish is saying in "that book", and I cannot imagine any doctor being against any one of those things. Do you want me to ask my doc next time, "Hey, doc, should I go for high stress or low stress? I read a book that quoted scientic research as saying that high stress is strongly linked to heart disease. Am I that much of an idiot that I have to ask him? Come on, give me some credit here. He probably hasn't even read about the study.

"Not to mention all the other more experienced hikers on whose experience I draw to inform my own endeavors - no one is focused on decreasing oils in the diet, they are instead focused on increasing caloric intake in the most compact fashion."

Are they heart patients? Is this a backpackers forum for heart patients? Are these more experienced hikers you mention heart patients or heart doctors? Everyone ought to limit their fat/oil intake to be healthy. Can anyone argue with that? Look at the incidence of obesity in American children. Vegetarians have less heart disease than anyone, vegans even less. These are facts. That's just the way it works. If ya smoke, you're more inclined to heart disease. It's a fact. Stressed out? Zap! (maybe)

So I'll use a little oil starting tommorrow, I'll do more reading because I believe in reading, and I'll get the facts. And I'll report them here. How's that sound? Can everyone relax now?

I would like to ask, are you sure that you yourself have all the facts about heart disease and oil consumption? Are you a cardiologist? Have ya read some books about it? I'm not sure I have all the facts, which is why I will do more research (reading books) and have discussion with my doctor. HOWEVER, I will be the one doing it in the end. I will decide on a course of action based on ALL the evidence, and it will be me who implements the decision. Truthfully, I don't think experienced hikers know about the biochemistry of metabolism. I think they know how to thrive in the woods. When I have questions about my diet in order to reverse heart disease, I won't be asking any of them, no matter how long they have hiked. Hiking is not medicine. I won't buy a hiking book to find out, either. I'll probably buy a book that is based on research that was published in the AMA Journal of Medicine, though. Research that is specific to the reversal and maintenance of heart disease through healthy living is exactly the book I want to read, because it is based on facts and I want to get better through healthy living . Why? Because I am responsible for myself. Scientific research tells us what the facts are. The people who do the research write books to tell other people what facts they discovered, through reproducible and verifiable means. It's called The Scientific Method. Other scientists can set up the experiment/study and check the facts themselves.

I don't do fad diets. I'm just a guy who eats whole, unprocessed foods as much as possible. Yesterday I had a huge salad for lunch: lettuce, mung bean sprouts, lentil sprouts, and ranch dressing. The dressing, a double serving, had 32 grams of fat in it, 5 grams of it was saturated (14%). A little high, but I cheat sometimes. So I got oil, but it wasn't out of an oil bottle. There is oil in other foods I eat. I still assert I am eating oil even though I don't buy it, but I will do what I said above, to make sure, and then report back. If I have to, I'll drink it right out of the bottle. But I would have to have verifiable facts that I need to do that first.

Are we good now?
Will a GoLite Lite-Speed large size hold a BV500?
If an MSR Pocket Rocket cannister (7.75oz) will bring 15 liters of water to a boil, how many liters will it bring to a boil and then simmer for 45 minutes?
Can we change the subject, in other words... i'm having too much fun.


Edited by Pat-trick (06/26/09 08:39 AM)
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#117692 - 06/26/09 10:15 PM Re: how many days in your bear can? [Re: Pat-trick]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
I think the issue lies with the amount of calories you need to hike, not the oil percent. People are looking at your hiking plans and see "thru-hiker" as the plan. But, you might fit a different mold. Thru-hikers generally are expending more energy than they can eat, because they are hiking long miles, and can only carry a limited amount. You will be carrying a limit amount, but maybe not hiking as long. We all don't really know how much energy you will need each day. That is for you to figure.

I think you will be good with 10% of calories from fat. I just would be worried that you get enough calories. If you are lean now, then you will notice sooner. If you are a little heavy, you won't notice for a while, which might be a good thing. Anyways, I would just plan to have a diet reassessment every so often to either change the amount of calories covered, or calorie binge for a few days (this could mean eating a lot more vegetables and whole wheat for a few days to calorie dump before heading out again). In other words, when you resupply, try being in a town where you can buy more food. If you feel like you are lower on energy, eat more quantity (same fat percentage) before loading up.

Moving on....thanks for the link to Ornish. I enjoyed it, and plan on using some of his ideas. Maybe not when weekend hiking, but definitely every other day. thanks
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#117828 - 06/30/09 04:51 AM Re: how many days in your bear can? [Re: finallyME]
Pat-trick Offline
member

Registered: 06/22/09
Posts: 175
Loc: Portland, OR
I think I'm getting TOO much oil, actually. My cholesterol #'s were up a bit last workup. I do aim for 10% fat content, or less.

I'm a big dufus. I had a little problem before joining the forum and thought living like a wild man would be the solution. I'm no way a thru hiker. I'm settled down now, and can say that I'm probably an occassional backpacker wannabee. I DO live just a couple miles from a local wilderness area, and I want to go to the top of the ridgeline behind my house. It's the tallest mountain in a 10 mile radius. (Jay Mountain, New York)
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#117887 - 07/01/09 09:16 AM Re: how many days in your bear can? [Re: Pat-trick]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
Patrick. Sorry for the thread drift. This is interesting stuff.

You asked “I've never heard that before. I've heard that in the general population there is a statistical link between olive oil use and lower bad cholesterol, but I've not heard that the oil itself lowers the bad and raises the good.”

This is very common knowledge among your doctors and especially dieticians. After heart surgery your doctor will send you to a dietician where they really train you about diet---- practically becoming a vegetarian. My dad had to go through this so now I’m way more wary of my eating habits.

Here’s a typical summary of olive oil use: http://www.healthcentral.com/cholesterol/c/59/2543/fat-good-bad/
“The people of Crete eat a tremendous amount of olive oil, a monounsaturated fat. Monounsaturated fats such as olive or canola oil have a good effect on cholesterol by raising the good HDL and lowering the bad LDL.”

I hope you don’t think that I suggest drinking evoo. Just use it properly. Your exact calorie ratio of carbs, fats, and proteins cannot be given by anyone here. We’re just pointing out that you need all 3. The ratio can be determined by your doctor with a dietician.

-Barry

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#117898 - 07/01/09 03:12 PM Re: how many days in your bear can? [Re: Pat-trick]
Keith Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 1664
Loc: Michigan's Upper Peninsula
Originally Posted By Pat-trick
Doc says no oil, period. For people with heart disease, any oil is bad.


No doubt generally good advice. However, I would counsel a healthy skepticism for any "one size fits all" medical/dietary recommendation. In this case you are doing something that the good doctor may never have considered as he contemplated the overweight cubicle denizens that comprise a large contingent of the folk he was targeting with his advice. Since you are doing someting different (and, BTW, extremely healthy), I'd suggest you consider how you need to modify his generic recommendations to fit your circumstances.
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#117906 - 07/01/09 05:03 PM Re: how many days in your bear can? [Re: BarryP]
Pat-trick Offline
member

Registered: 06/22/09
Posts: 175
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By BarryP
Patrick,... You asked “...I've not heard that the oil itself lowers the bad and raises the good.”

This is very common knowledge among your doctors and especially dieticians...

“The people of Crete eat a tremendous amount of olive oil, a monounsaturated fat...

-Barry

Thanks for pointing out that I need calories from fat. I know that. I currently and for the past 4 years, since my quadruple coronary artery bypass graft surgery, have been getting more than 10% of my calories from fat. None of my 4 times a year blood work-ups have shown any abnormalities. My total cholesterol had been at ~100 until this past year, and now it is creeping up.
It's probably not a coincidence that I've been hitting the ice cream during this time. NOt much, but I'm susceptible to high cholesterol. Cholesterol levels (the bad one) will rise as consumption of dietary cholesterol rises (eggs, shrimp, etc), and it will also rise as consumption of saturated fats rises. So I follow a diet that has been scientifically proven to lower the bad cholesterol. I also exercise, because that has been scientifically proven to raise the good cholesterol, which acts as a transportation system for the bad cholesterol to be processed in the body, and removed as needed.

I read the article by young Dr. Kang, and was alarmed to read that he calls olive oil a monounsaturated fat. It is not. It is absolutely, positively NOT a mono-unsaturated fat. It CONTAINS 55-83% monounsaturated fats, depending on the particular oil, but it also contains saturated fat and polyunsaturated fat, AS DO ALL OILS. To his credit, Dr. Kang notes that saturated fat raises LDL cholesterol (the bad one). However, he ought to know, as should anyone who eats food, that ALL OILS ARE A MIXTURE OF SATURATED, MONOUNSATURATED, AND POLYUNSATURATED FATS. And my impression of the article is that he was speaking to the general population, not to the specialized, specific population of recovering heart patients. I am ALL FOR THE USE OF OLIVE OIL BY THE GENERAL PUBLIC.

Canola oil has the lowest percentage of saturated fats of all the oils, beating olive oil in the contest. Canada has made canola oil its "national oil" for this reason. For regular healthy people, using canola oil or olive oil to cook (in reasonable quantities) is fine. However, I personally am a person who has: high cholesterol (I take Simvastatin, and I do not eat saturated fats of any kind - except when I cheat, which is probably too often). I eliminate cooking oils from my diet because they contain saturated fats. If they did not have saturated fats, I would probably use them, because I like the flavors. And Dr. Ornish would probably say it's okay, too.

Dr. Ornish states in his explanation of the scientifically-proven program to reverse heart disease, that the reason to refrain from the use of cooking oils, is to eliminate saturated fats, which are scientifically proven to raise cholesterol levels and contribute to heart disease and heart attacks.

I AM NOT TELLING ANYONE ON THIS FORUM TO NOT USE OIL. Please, keep on doing what you do. I just happened to (unwisely) mention it in a post.

I DO GET A HEALTHY PORTION OF CALORIES FROM FATS. Fats are found in foods. Avocadoes and nuts and seeds have LOTS of fat. So does anything dairy. Brown rice has fat in it. Beans have fat. It IS possible to have adequate fat content in the diet without adding cooking oil, even my diet, which is vegetarian. It would amount to getting 10% of your calories from fats if a person ate a vegetarian diet without adding cooking oils. Since this diet, combined with daily exercise of the aerobic variety, stress reduction, and social support, IS SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN TO REVERSE HEART DISEASE, I am following it. If you or someone you know has heart disease, I would highly recommend this program, including all four facets of it (diet, exercise, stress reduction, social support).

I do respectfully request that you acknowledge that this no-added-fat diet is for me only, as a person trying to reverse heart disease, and is not intended for healthy people who walk around the world with a ultra-light house on their backs. DO NOT FOLLOW THIS DIET IF YOU ARE HEALTHY. IT IS AN EXTREMELY RESTRICTED DIET FOR MEDICAL PATIENTS ONLY, WITH A MEDICAL RESULT AS ITS GOAL.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion. I need to consider more carefully the things I say on this forum. Sorry!

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#117907 - 07/01/09 05:17 PM Re: how many days in your bear can? [Re: Keith]
Pat-trick Offline
member

Registered: 06/22/09
Posts: 175
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By Keith
In this case you are doing something that the good doctor may never have considered as he contemplated the overweight cubicle denizens that comprise a large contingent of the folk he was targeting with his advice. Since you are doing someting different (and, BTW, extremely healthy), I'd suggest you consider how you need to modify his generic recommendations to fit your circumstances.


Au contaire, Keith! The doctor wasn't speaking to the general overweight citizens when he said "no added oil". He was speaking to the heart patient with life-threatening, ongoing disease. Please read the post I just made in response to Barry. I made a mistake by mentioning my diet, and folks naturally assumed I was recommending it for backpackers. NOOOOOO!!!! I'm so sorry. I have to limit ALL SATURATED FAT, but you don't. Saturated fat is found even in olive and canola oils, although it is in minimum amounts. Thus they are considered "healthy" oils. But for someone with heart disease, ANY OIL IS UNHEALTHY, because it contains some saturated fat. Following my diet has been scientifically proven to reverse heart disease. But it's not for regular folks. Please, continue to use oil, and let me be the first to remind you, there is a definite link between heart health and the use of oils that have very low % of saturated fat (olive, canola, etc).
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#117909 - 07/01/09 05:37 PM Re: how many days in your bear can? [Re: Pat-trick]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By Pat-trick

Canola oil has the lowest percentage of saturated fats of all the oils, beating olive oil in the contest. Canada has made canola oil its "national oil" for this reason.


Well, actually I think we've made canola our "national oil" because we grow tons and tons of it so it's *CHEAP* here. EVOO is pricy smile




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#117915 - 07/01/09 06:51 PM Re: how many days in your bear can? [Re: Pat-trick]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By Pat-trick


I hope this clears up some of the confusion. I need to consider more carefully the things I say on this forum. Sorry!



One of the problems I had in this conversation, as I noted in my PM, was that I myself have a tendency when stressed or overtired (as only someone in a rapidly sinking company can be as we all careen merrily toward layoffs, not that this excuses anything) and to not error-trap my tendency to bluntness. I could have worded my own responses better.

My main concern was that you (and anyone else departing from the General Consensus Of Dietary Needs For Hikers(tm)) are doing so under supervision of qualified medical professionals. Maybe you mentioned that somewhere, I may not have noticed in my bleariness, but my own myopic sense was not thus.

EVOO is such a popular and generally good way to pump up calories and fats that it struck me as "new and unusual" for someone to avoid most oils, when the rest of us (well, some of us) are adding it into oatmeal on long hikes.

I applaud your efforts to get out there - a lot of people with health issues hike and do well. I have a few of them in my hiking group, one recovering from back surgery and trying to work his way into backpacking again, another trying to lose weight while addressing some other issues. It can be done, don't lose heart. One overnighter at a time.
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#117967 - 07/03/09 12:13 PM Re: how many days in your bear can? [Re: Pat-trick]
Keith Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 1664
Loc: Michigan's Upper Peninsula
<quote>Au contaire, Keith! The doctor wasn't speaking to the general overweight citizens when he said "no added oil"</quote>

Pat-trick . . .
Clearly, I jumped to an unwarrented conclusion. This was in part from not understanding your situation and in part from interpreting your regimen as absolutely no fat. Thanks for explaining things.

--Keith
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#118001 - 07/04/09 12:43 PM Re: how many days in your bear can? [Re: lori]
Pat-trick Offline
member

Registered: 06/22/09
Posts: 175
Loc: Portland, OR
i get plenty of fat and calories... one look at my abdomen will convince ya! i'm 6'0" 225 pounds, and don't lack for much at all, ha ha. laugh grin laugh
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