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#108036 - 12/18/08 10:40 AM Large Group Backpacking (Safety Concerns)
Juice Offline


Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 4
Hello everyone, first post here!

My name is Kyle, I am 18 years wise (Hardly wise) and have been backpacking since I was about 10 years of age, so I have a little bit of experience. I am attempting to get together a group for backpacking the "Bruce Peninsula" trail, known as "The Bruce" I have done it once before so I am familiar with the terrain and dangers (Including an encounter with a black bear). So I know what to expect, so long as we stick to a trail. The trip is designed with beginners in mind and is meant for the people who have never backpacked before that are coming long. My only issue is that 90% of the people coming are people I do not personally (Friends of friends) know or people who concern me being on such a trip. I am only inviting people I can trust, but I can't say so much for other people.

The majority of the people, being teenagers I am expecting there to be rowdiness and perhaps a little bit of drinking or smoking marijuana to occur; of course given the area (Cliff's and drinking don't match) I want to try to keep it to a minimum. I don't want to exclude people from the trip, but at the same time I don't want anyone getting hurt. So I have compiled the following solutions.

A: Four selected, experienced backpackers trained in First Aid, CPR etc. Two at the front and two at the back of the group with walkie talkies; this would help minimize the risk of someone wandering off the trail and help keep a sort of pack mentality between the forward and rear lines. Also provides leaders for each side of the group, front will adjust their speed according to the rear lines.

B: In the same token, have a selected group leader per tent section (every 2-3 tents have one leader) to watch over the people, must be responsible, not drink nor smoke. Will be required to carry a flashlight, flares and whistle. Is in charge of maintaining their group in one section of the site and not allowing anyone to wander. Makes sure their groups food is all hung up and that their cooking and cleaning their ware's properly.

C: Two main hike leaders, experienced backpackers whose main purpose is to supervise the entire group and watch for any kind of unsafe activity.

A few idea's I have come up with so far, before the Hike I also want to have a larger group discussion outlining basic rules and stuff, safety issues that we may have. Only reason I want the stuff to be so rigid (not trying to ruin fun, allowing as much as I can) is because many of these people are first time backpackers who are unaware of the many dangers they cannot see; the fact that we are going to be hiking near cliffs and I want to minimize injuries or sickness; also no deaths as a personal preference. Does anyone have any ideas? Or comments to my ideas?

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#108037 - 12/18/08 12:50 PM Re: Large Group Backpacking (Safety Concerns) [Re: Juice]
dkramalc Offline
member

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 1070
Loc: California
One possible addition to part A: when I've hiked with one particular group, the rule is that if you go off the trail for any reason (usually potty stops) you leave your pack at the edge of the trail, on the side you departed from. When the rear leader reaches your pack, they stop and wait for you, thus ensuring that nobody gets left behind. If for some reason you get lost, at least they will know which direction you headed and from what point.

Also, if the front leader reaches a fork in the trail (why can't I stop thinking of Johnny Carson here?) they stop and wait until the next person reaches it, and so on down the line, so that nobody hits the fork and has to make a decision on their own which way to go. For river/stream crossings, same procedure, so that nobody has to cross unassisted in case of a slip. Generally any kind of a crossing is a good place to everyone to stop for a break and wait for the stragglers, help them across, etc.

It sounds like you are being very responsible about ensuring the safety of your group - good for you!
_________________________
dk

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#108038 - 12/18/08 02:34 PM Re: Large Group Backpacking (Safety Concerns) [Re: Juice]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
Hello everyone, first post here!


Hmm. Welcome Kyle! and while some may disagree with me, congrats one one of the better thought out first posts I've seen in a long time. You sound like you've put some thought into this a lot more than many who just figure they'll take some gear into the bush for an extended 4:20 break.

Quote:

My name is Kyle, I am 18 years wise (Hardly wise) and have been backpacking since I was about 10 years of age, so I have a little bit of experience. I am attempting to get together a group for backpacking the "Bruce Peninsula" trail, known as "The Bruce" I have done it once before so I am familiar with the terrain and dangers (Including an encounter with a black bear). So I know what to expect, so long as we stick to a trail. The trip is designed with beginners in mind and is meant for the people who have never backpacked before that are coming long. My only issue is that 90% of the people coming are people I do not personally (Friends of friends) know or people who concern me being on such a trip. I am only inviting people I can trust, but I can't say so much for other people.

The majority of the people, being teenagers I am expecting there to be rowdiness and perhaps a little bit of drinking or smoking marijuana to occur; of course given the area (Cliff's and drinking don't match) I want to try to keep it to a minimum. I don't want to exclude people from the trip, but at the same time I don't want anyone getting hurt. So I have compiled the following solutions.

A: Four selected, experienced backpackers trained in First Aid, CPR etc. Two at the front and two at the back of the group with walkie talkies; this would help minimize the risk of someone wandering off the trail and help keep a sort of pack mentality between the forward and rear lines. Also provides leaders for each side of the group, front will adjust their speed according to the rear lines.

B: In the same token, have a selected group leader per tent section (every 2-3 tents have one leader) to watch over the people, must be responsible, not drink nor smoke. Will be required to carry a flashlight, flares and whistle. Is in charge of maintaining their group in one section of the site and not allowing anyone to wander. Makes sure their groups food is all hung up and that their cooking and cleaning their ware's properly.

C: Two main hike leaders, experienced backpackers whose main purpose is to supervise the entire group and watch for any kind of unsafe activity.

A few idea's I have come up with so far, before the Hike I also want to have a larger group discussion outlining basic rules and stuff, safety issues that we may have. Only reason I want the stuff to be so rigid (not trying to ruin fun, allowing as much as I can) is because many of these people are first time backpackers who are unaware of the many dangers they cannot see; the fact that we are going to be hiking near cliffs and I want to minimize injuries or sickness; also no deaths as a personal preference. Does anyone have any ideas? Or comments to my ideas?

[/quote]

It sounds like you are thinking it though, and I commend your efforts to think about it ahead of time and keep everyone safe and have fun - so first off, you're miles ahead of many young groups who hit the trails just from my seeeing this post of yours.

Here's a few general suggestions:

0) Consider a "break in trip" of a day in and out before starting a multi day trip - you could pick a short in and out to test both the people, their gear, and the personalities. I know you don't want to exclude people, but you should bear in mind that if somone who you don't completely know is going to be a real jerk, or is horrendously equipped, or has a totally incompatible attitude with the rest of the group - take a leading role and just say no. A good time to do this would be after an initial "test run" before you start the "real" hike. You may not have to say no to someone, but believe me you're better off having the guts to do it than
put up with days of someone making everyone miserable, and while you might get called some names about doing it, consider the rest of the group and many may actually thank you if you have the guts to do it,
perhaps after some discussion with the other experienced members of your group that you trust.

1) watch out when the group gets spread out. Your "tail end charlies" need to make sure they don't potentially push slow hikers too much, or push people with feet problems. You will have them. your experienced people at the front need to deliberatly hike slower than their optimum pace, because many w ill think it's a race - you should have this discussion with your experienced people too, because many may even unconciously think it's fun or manly to show how much they can hike the rest of the group into the ground - so plan and stick to a very easy itinerary <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

2) bring plenty of blister pads and stop and check feet once an hour on the first couple days. newbies will "tough it out" rather than put on a blister pad turning something you can deal with into a potentially big problem when halfway down the trail and walking on hamburger. Make sure everyone has good socks and comfortable proper footwear.

3) Check packweight at the start. while weed is a lot more weight efficient than booze, many will be tempted to bring a lot of booze, and the result can be giant heavy packs that will make the experience not good.

4) Plan on having a bailout option on day 1 (and other days if possible) if you have a large group if you can do it. ensure that someone is ready to go back to an extra vehicle at your starting trailhead, and perhaps drive it to the end of your hike and camp out to wait for the group, or back to town. It's easier than taking someone the whole way whose feet or gear or mental state isn't going to handle it. Since this may be *likely* you should take one of your experienced responsible people who *plans on not completing the hike*. who is just gonna go in and out to the first campsite or two, and then walk back to drive back to town or meet you at the end. I have personally done this with big groups going with an experienced person to do something gnarly. I didn't feel like snowshoeing up a mountain, so I was the backstop guy at low camp, walked in early, had a nice solo night to myself, dayhiked the next day. met the group, and took the people that it was going to be a bit much for on a little alternative, then out.


5) you've talked about managing the "fun" and "rowdiness" - and like anything in moderation I think it's fine. - just remember that if you're in sites with other backpackers they will not appreciate rowdiness late into the night, so try to respect everyone else while still having fun. Remember many are out there for peace and quiet so choose your campsites appropriately, and your "quiet down and mellow out" time appropriately. Having said that, if you're thinking this far ahead you're probably gonna be fine.

If cell phones work take a couple and turn 'em off unless you need 'em. If you had a PLB with that group it'd be great, but I don't know of anyplace that rents them yet in canada, and they're expensive <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have fun, don't get hurt, and don't make anyone else have a bad hike. Them's the basics.


Edited by phat (12/18/08 02:56 PM)

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#108039 - 12/18/08 02:44 PM Re: Large Group Backpacking (Safety Concerns) [Re: Juice]
ohiohiker Offline
member

Registered: 07/20/07
Posts: 127
Loc: Ohio
Good planning!

Do everything you can to persuade/trick everyone into carrying a pealess whistle and flashlight on their person (not their pack) at all times. (I even carry these every day on my keychain.)

Ditch the flares, especially with smoking and drinking going on. Signal fires and signal mirrors are generally better attention-getters. See this site for more info on survival gear:

http://www.equipped.org/srvkits.htm


Edited by ohiohiker (12/18/08 02:48 PM)

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#108040 - 12/18/08 03:34 PM Re: Large Group Backpacking (Safety Concerns) [Re: Juice]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Remember to have fun. It is easy to be so intent on keeping everyone safe that you fail to have fun yourself.

Check restrictions on group size. Lots of places limit group size to conserve the resources.
_________________________
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."
Yogi Berra

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#108041 - 12/18/08 05:18 PM Re: Large Group Backpacking (Safety Concerns) [Re: Juice]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
As a leader of organized trips for a club, we require everyone to sign a waiver. If your group can be construed as "organized" you want to be sure you are not liable for problems, since you are the de-facto leader.

I think there are limits to group size for everyone to have a successful trip. I would be reluctant to have over 20 people, even if there are no regulatory restrictions. You may think about breaking this into two trips of smaller group sizes.

It also helps to have a sign-in and sign-out roster. Everyone signs in with thier name and who to contact in case of an emergency. Then at the end of trip, everyone signs out.

You also need to have an emergency plan. If someone gets hurt, what are you going to do? Who is going out with them. Who is going to be contacted if they really need evacuation. If this is thought out before hand it is a lot less chaotic when stuff goes wrong.

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#108042 - 12/18/08 06:36 PM Re: Large Group Backpacking (Safety Concerns) [Re: Juice]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
If kids are going you have concerns about, I would ask for their qualifications. At your age, you are going to have some who know it all and have no respect for authority, you. Sounds like you are going to be up front with them though. I hope the cliffs and other dangerous spots are away from your campsite. I had a fellow store manager at the time, loose her daughter at a underage campout/party. She walked off a cliff.

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#108078 - 12/20/08 02:09 AM Re: Large Group Backpacking (Safety Concerns) [Re: hikerduane]
Juice Offline


Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 4
Thanks for the input everyone! I really like some of the idea's put forth, a lot of stuff I didn't think about (Forks in the trail, packs at the side; a bail out option)

My "Bail Out" plan was going to consist of the few backpackers in the group that are experienced, but not in charge of much to escort and go with the people that decide to bail before the end; the Bruce Trail is really straightforward and there isn't much to it. At best I would say its beginner due to the fact it is a trail with allotted sites. Yeah, most of our people will have cars; if they don't then the Bruce Trail supervisors (The people in charge of the actual trail) do have vehicles to bring people to the nearest town in I believe.

I was planning on doing a simple field day, where we walk around the city, the forests etc with full gear and packs to get the feel for the walking/packing requirement. I am going to hold a day about a month before the trip where everyone is required to answer some simple questions about general measures and safety, and show us (The more experienced hikers) how their going to pack their bags, what they do when we bunk down for the night; etc etc. I will exclude people if I need to, but I would rather not. But lets face it, I don't want people who have issues with authority on this trip; I need people who can follow the rules on the basis of the people chosen to lead, because they are more experienced (Obviously)



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#108129 - 12/21/08 03:25 AM Re: Large Group Backpacking (Safety Concerns) [Re: Juice]
Wolfeye Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 413
Loc: Seattle, WA
It sounds like everybody has given excellent advice, and I think you're also on the right track. My only experience leading large groups of young people (college age) was for paintball, not hiking, but here's what I learned:

- Make sure you're legit. Checking up on group size limits and having a mandatory waiver (you can find generic ones online) are a good start. You can probably pick up a lot of information at a local ranger station regarding do's and don't's as well as have-to's.

- Give them structure. Spell out the plan before you start, and announce things like lunch at the right time. Communication will be an issue for hiking because large groups tend to really string out, so it would be a good idea to make sure your leaders stick to the schedule too. Don't depend on the walkie talkies - they often only function on line-of-sight, so signals may disappear depending on terrian. Also, try to pick leaders who people will listen to. People usually will follow leaders who are friendly and know a lot about what they're doing.

- If you're looking for comprehensive first aid/CPR, you might be interested in WFR training. That's Wilderness First Responder - it's in between first aid & EMT training, and is often a requirement for camp leaders.

- Be prepared for cuts & scrapes, or worse. Young reckless people who aren't used to the outdoors will often fall & get hurt, and the people with big first aid kits will become popular. Also check if anybody in the group has any special medical conditions. (My paintball club once "lost" a guy who turned out to be diabetic, and we were afraid he'd collapsed in the woods somewhere. After searching for a while, he showed up back at the cars; turns out he'd gotten lost in the woods and found a road, then hitchhiked back.)

Hmm. That about covers it. You can find lots of books on hiking for beginners, and some might be useful resources for teaching newbies.

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#108139 - 12/21/08 11:46 AM Re: Large Group Backpacking (Safety Concerns) [Re: Wolfeye]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
Also let them know about LNT practices. If around water, let them know at the start to bury poop and toliet paper if not packing it out 100'-200' from water depending where you are. Pace it off to show them if needed and like one post, have fun.

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#108158 - 12/21/08 07:58 PM Re: Large Group Backpacking (Safety Concerns) [Re: hikerduane]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
A few more suggestions:

1. Someone has to be in charge, especially with newbies. By that, I mean one person who can call off the whole thing if need be and everyone must agree to that before going.

2. Weather check-you MUST do a weather check and get forecasts. Last winter a group similar in nature to yours-a bunch of people who met online-got caught in a very bad storm in the PNW and only were saved by a huge rescue effort-helicopters, snow machines and a 100 person rescue party.

Why did that happen? Because the leader failed to check the weather and they were unprepared-lack of skills and proper equipment. No one got killed or seriously hurt, but that was only because of the big search effort and a bit of luck with the weather. Two or three more days of the storm and most likely they would have been dead-the whole lot of them.

3. Gear Check-before the hike, not the day of. People need a checklist of what to bring and what not to bring. I would ban alcohol and drugs for the obvious reasons. People get careless and don't pay attention when drinking or getting high. Magnifies the chances of someone getting hurt.

You need to make sure that the newbies are properly equipped with at least the basics of the "Ten Essentials" plus rain gear, some kind of insulated clothes, adequate sleeping bag, adequate shelter, stoves, food, etc. They don't have to spend a lot, just bring sensible gear-no jeans or cotton hoodies. Substitute poly track suits and wool sweaters with some kind of jacket or poncho, even a cheap plastic one.

If needed, a trip to a discount store or Goodwill for cheap wool gear (probably easier to find up your way than fancy synthetics) for people on a budget. Get wool gloves and a beanie/watch cap too. You can find lots of things you may need at an Army Surplus store-look for CF (Canadian Forces) gear. I see it online all the time.
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#108183 - 12/22/08 04:07 PM Re: Large Group Backpacking (Safety Concerns) [Re: TomD]
Juice Offline


Registered: 12/18/08
Posts: 4
Been thinking this trip over a lot over the past two weeks; I think its decided we will probably limit the group to a maximum of 20 (First come first serve) 5-10 of which need to have some to a lot of experience. The people I have chosen to be leaders are Ex-Army, Still Army, friends with experiences the same as mine and whom I personally trust. And Scouts. I have a rather good site for backpacking, of which a guy recounts the important things to remember (Great for newbs) which I am handing out to the people; it covers how the packs should be done, what to and not to bring; importance of: etc.

We have 3-4 surplus stores in my area that sells excess army clothing (Thermals) I am probably going to be picking up a pair of them for myself, urging the others to buy some as well. I will also more than likely be picking up a tac vest; first hand experience tells me those vests are very convenient for keeping multi-tools, knives, first aid kits and other doo-dads for quick access.

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#108214 - 12/22/08 10:32 PM Re: Large Group Backpacking (Safety Concerns) [Re: Juice]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
I will also more than likely be picking up a tac vest; first hand experience tells me those vests are very convenient for keeping multi-tools, knives, first aid kits and other doo-dads for quick access.

You have a good plan going and have received a lot of good advice. After your shake down hike, you will probably loose the vest and all the multi-tools etc that you really won't need. I find that if you know your gear well and have prepaired well. You will only need a knife most of the time.
_________________________
Enjoy your next trip...

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#108279 - 12/24/08 08:05 PM Re: Large Group Backpacking (Safety Concerns) [Re: Juice]
Tango61 Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 931
Loc: East Texas Piney Woods

Juice,
Be sure and check the "credentials" of those who are/were Scouts. I am an Eagle Scout, an active Assistant Scoutmaster and have 30+ years of camping and backpacking.
I have been around a lot of Scouts and I wouldn't trust some of them (in the outdoors) as far as I could toss 'em.
(I guess you could say the same about the Army guys, too).

Maybe this sounds harsh, but better safe than sorry.

If you've already done so, please disregard.
_________________________
If you think you can, you can. If you think you can't, you can't. Either way, you're right.

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#108505 - 12/30/08 04:15 PM Re: Large Group Backpacking (Safety Concerns) [Re: Juice]
jpanderson80 Offline
member

Registered: 07/28/06
Posts: 292
Loc: Memphis, TN
Welcome! They members here will give you plenty of great advice. (like leaving the flares at home!)

I do lead groups of teens and have had lots of fun doing it. It's been anywhere from middle school to Juniors and Seniors in high school.

Aside from the other advice here, I will mention two things. New hikers get siked out a lot of the times. They think that it will be too hard or too long or that the food is terrible. Remind them that you will be walking. It is nothing more than that. I'm sure they walk every day.

The other item... good food will turn a miserable trip with terrible weather into a "remember that time when we hiked in the rain all day". Any comfort foods will make people at ease. It works wonders. Just a candy bar itself will change peoples attitudes, especially teens.

Have fun.
_________________________
I always forget and make it more complicated than it needs to be...it's just walking.

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#108570 - 12/31/08 06:53 PM Re: Large Group Backpacking (Safety Concerns) [Re: Tango61]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By Tango61

Juice,
Be sure and check the "credentials" of those who are/were Scouts. I am an Eagle Scout, an active Assistant Scoutmaster and have 30+ years of camping and backpacking.
I have been around a lot of Scouts and I wouldn't trust some of them (in the outdoors) as far as I could toss 'em.
(I guess you could say the same about the Army guys, too).

Maybe this sounds harsh, but better safe than sorry.

If you've already done so, please disregard.


I have been in the Army, and am an Eagle Scout, and unfortunately, I agree completely with tango. Just because someone is a scout or in the Army doesn't mean they are experienced backpackers. But, it does mean that they probably are a slight bit more responsible.

My advice, and I think TomD said it, is to do a pre-check of everyone's gear before, and the day of. I would ban alcohol and anything else you feel necessary (like big cans of chili). Everyone signs a waiver, and agrees to the stipulations before hand. Also, if you do a pre-hike of more than 5-8 miles, that alone will weed your group size down without you having to do anything else. If you tell everyone that you will do what I suggested, I would be surprised if you have more than 20. Shoot, I would be surprised if you had more than 10 that would agree to no alcohol, smoking, a waiver, and then finish the 5 mile walk with all gear and still want to go. Personally, I wouldn't take more than 10 people.

Oh yeah, and this is completely my humble opinion, but TAC vests are worthless, even in the army. I NEVER wore mine in Iraq. The Army wasted a lot of money on that piece of junk.


Edited by finallyME (12/31/08 07:00 PM)
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#108576 - 12/31/08 07:35 PM Re: Large Group Backpacking (Safety Concerns) [Re: finallyME]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
One issue not mentioned yet--make sure the area you're going to (with which I'm not familiar) doesn't have restrictions on party size. Most of the places I backpack (in the mountain west) have party size limits of anywhere from 12 down to 8. IMHO, 20 is an extremely large group. You'll have to work extra diligently on "Leave No Trace" practices just to keep the place you're visiting from looking trashed.
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#108963 - 01/08/09 12:57 AM Re: Large Group Backpacking (Safety Concerns) [Re: Juice]
Jim M Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/03
Posts: 430
Loc: Kitsap Peninsula, WA
Getting out with these people before the big trip is a very good idea. There may even be people who you will decide don't belong with your group. Knowing how they act and take direction on the trail is important. You can theorize and plan all you want, but if you have someone who is determined to get lost or make other people miserable then it is a bad deal. Good Luck. Remember that safety isn't something outside the process that you sort of add on or inject...it is every part of the process and how you do it and it is all your knowledge and skills that keep you safe.
_________________________
Jim M

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