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#108746 - 01/04/09 09:24 AM Fuel Dilemma
SilasDogood Offline
newbie

Registered: 01/04/09
Posts: 3
Loc: Florida, USA
So, I'm finally breaking down and buying a backpacking stove. I've got a fair idea of what I want, but I'm unsure about having to haul fuel. Can I refill them anywhere propane and propane accessories are sold? Do any of the big chains do a swap-out program like for a gas grill? Should I bypass all that and just use something else?

Thanks!

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#108747 - 01/04/09 09:42 AM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: SilasDogood]
Bearpaw Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/25/04
Posts: 1732
Loc: Tennessee
Most backpacking stoves don't use propane.

There are 5 primary categories:

1) White gas (Coleman fuel) - still the most reliable in cold weather, but somewhat heavy. High power flame.

2) Cannister - contains a mix of butane and other gases. Simple to operate. Relatively light. High power flame, but drops in intensity in cold weather. You cannot get these refilled that I know of.

3) Alcohol - denatured alcohol burns itself reasonably well. Often the stove is a homemade affair made from a couple of soda cans shaped so as to maximize their heat retention and air flow. Weighs less than an ounce. Lower power flame.

4) Solid fuel - esbit, trioxane, etc. "Heat tabs". Light them and they burn. Stoves range from a 1/4 ounce to 2 or 3 ounces. Simple, very light, stinky. Lower power flame.

5) Wood burning stoves - some with battery powered fan (zipstove); others with special air flow design to maximize oxygen and heat (bushbuddy). can soot up pots very quickly. Only requires natural fuel. Medium to high flame.

There are proponents of all types here.

I probably use the cannister stove most often nowadays. On long-distance summer trips, I still like the light weight and simplicity of my esbit stove. In really cold weather (20 F or lower) I carry the weight of my white gas stove (MSR Whisperlite) because cannister take a good bit of futzing and warming to work well when it gets this cold.

Alky stove users will certainly let you know about the benefits of the alky stove. They're intriguing but not quite right for me.
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#108748 - 01/04/09 09:49 AM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: Bearpaw]
Pika Offline
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1814
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
There are also "multi-fuel" stoves that will burn fuels ranging from white gas to diesel fuel. They are a bit more expensive and have a greater "fuss" factor than do any of the others Bearpaw mentioned. Like Bearpaw, I prefer a canister stove except in cold weather.
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#108751 - 01/04/09 12:01 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: SilasDogood]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
I like using the canister stove, it is quick and easy to set up and take down. I have been able to use a small MSR isobutane canister for eight days by only heating water for the evening meal. Most folks dispose of the canister when empty, I have seen a refill gadget to refill them off of a larger propane bottle, may not be suitable for us bpers as we use a mix that is good in cooler weather. I'm assuming you will be bping in FL where warmer weather is the norm, about 12 here this morning. I've been doing a little checking on alcohol stoves and Esbit fuel the last few weeks, Esbit is the most efficient weight wise, but smells bad and leaves a residue on your pot. Check out the Caldera Cone system, I finally looked into it this last week, sounds very efficient, they have a "keg" that contains the wind screen, alky stove beer can pot in a plastic cylinder. You supply the pot, they send you the system matched to your specific pot, around $70 I believe. One of the people I bped into Dewey Point in Yosemite mentioned it to me also last week.

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#108752 - 01/04/09 12:09 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: Bearpaw]
Folkalist Offline
member

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 374
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
BP, nice summation. Very useful for both newbies and more experienced hikers looking to change-up their options. thanks
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#108757 - 01/04/09 02:25 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: Folkalist]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Great summary, Bearpaw!

For the OP, propane (being more explosive) requires much heavier canisters than does butane. Propane canisters are far too heavy for backpacking.

The isobutane canisters cannot be refilled, but they can be recycled. Punch a hole or two in the canister (do this outside, obviously, after making sure (with the stove part) that all fuel is gone) and let it sit outside for a day for everything to evaporate. At least my local recycling folks haven't objected yet. Some outdoor stores will recycle your used canisters, too.

The "multi-fuel" stove is pretty much the same as the white gas stove (many of the "white gas" stoves will use kerosene, the common fuel in other parts of the world). IMHO, too heavy except for cold winter use, when canisters wimp out and you need to melt lots of snow for water.
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#108758 - 01/04/09 02:26 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: Bearpaw]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Bear Paw

I have to argue a point and add another. There certainly are canister stoves that work well in cold weather, like my Coleman xtreme, but there is the other one where you turn the remote canister upside down. I predict there will be more cold weather canister stoves because of 3 things, They light without priming, shut off completely thus not giving off toxic fumes, AND you cane easily simmer on them.

I got out my ancient XGK (white gas MSR) and lit it this week. It lit pretty easily even in cold wind, but in really bad weather a white gas stove is nearly impossible to get primed and therefore maybe not lit. The XGK does put out enough heat for winter camping, an MSR Whisper-lite is very marginal. I have no experience with any of the new stoves besides the Coleman Xtreme and the 2 burner model.

BTW "Camp stoves" do not burn Propane, they burn a propane/butane mixture which can be put into a thin walled bottle. Real propane stoves that sit on a green 2 pound bottle work pretty well, but may require occasional warming of the bottle.

White gas will get on your hands, possibly causing frost bite, but in any event, you will smell like white gas or Kerosene if you use these fuels.

Its best to have a 15,000BTU stove in the winter and dual burners means melting water and cooking at the same time. My dual burner weighs 8 oz more than a single, but uses only one fuel bottle.

Jim
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#108760 - 01/04/09 03:33 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: SilasDogood]
Jim M Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/03
Posts: 430
Loc: Kitsap Peninsula, WA
As you can see here, everyone has their own opinion depending on their experience, what kind of backpacking they do, and how light they want to travel. The constraints; cost, weight, cooking time, bulk, fuel weight, fussiness, availability and compatibility vary from stove to stove. Your particular situation may very from season to season and trip to trip. I think the canister stoves are so popular now because they do have more volatile fuel mixes (work at lower temps than the old butane stoves), they are relatively inexpensive (MSR Pocket Rocket for example), the require less fuss than other stoves, they cook fast enough, and fuel and stove weight are sort of average (More than alcohol stoves, less that gasoline, and simpler to operate than either), safer than other stoves, albeit sometimes less stable. I have owned all types over a few decades, and that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Don't spend too much money on your first stove, you will probably replace it or add to your inventory before long. (all experienced backpackers own more gear in their garage than they could possibly carry even 10 feet)


Edited by Pliny (01/04/09 03:36 PM)
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#108761 - 01/04/09 03:41 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: Jimshaw]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Silas, there is a big difference between a propane camping stove and a backpacking stove which uses a butane/propane mix, ususally around 80/20. Propane is lighter than butane. It has a lower boiling point than butane and requires higher pressure to be liquified in the canister, which is why propane tanks are steel rather than aluminum.

Backpacking stoves, as noted above, use small non-refillable aluminum canisters. The canisters contain the gas at a much lower pressure than a propane tank. If you shake a canister, you can feel and hear the liquid butane sloshing around in it. Backpacking canisters can be recycled and should always be carried out from your campsite. The most common canister has a Lindal valve that enables you to unscrew the canister from the stove for travel or storage. There are several other valves, but the Lindal is the most common. Some GAZ stoves have a non-threaded valve and the Coleman Jim has uses an entirely different cartridge and valve.

Here are two good sites with the scientific info on various fuels-
Zen Stoves
Fuel FAQ

For the average beginner backpacker who is hiking in three season weather (above freezing), I would recommend a canister stove. They are relatively cheap, easy to use and lightweight. Look throught the sponsors' sites, especially backcountrygear.com for different models.

FYI, I have different stoves for different uses-I have 3 liquid fuel stoves and two gas stoves, including a Primus Micron and a Coleman. I've made alcohol stoves just for fun, but don't have much use for them.



Edited by TomD (01/04/09 03:55 PM)
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#108764 - 01/04/09 06:29 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: Jimshaw]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
I've had a Coleman xtreme (single burner) for about 4 years now and it is a good stove. I've used it in pretty cold temps, below 30F for sure. The only issue I have with mine is that the fuel control valve is difficult to adjust down to a low simmer. Not impossible, just a bit of a pain.

I think it's still lighter to carry a "Pop can" stove and alcohol though when the temps are above 40F. But the Pop can stove is hard to light when it's cold. I wasted a lot of fuel on my last trip dealing with that problem. I've been thinking of possible solutions since.

First I'm going to try and fashion a sort of saucer to set it on. The saucer should hold a enough fuel to get the stove hot enough to light off in cold weather.

I thought I might also try making something that will hold a votive candle under the stove to help heat the fuel in cold weather.

It seems that there should be a simple, easy, and lightweight method to improve cold temp performance for these.


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#108765 - 01/04/09 06:50 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: billstephenson]
JimM_PA Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 90
Loc: PA
I use aluminum flashing for a windscreen. I made an aluminum base for the alcohol stove by cutting a circular piece of flashing that is a little larger in diameter than the base of my pot. I bent the edge of the flashing around the base of the pot to form it. I fill the stove to the desired level and include some alcohol on the base. Lighting the alcohol on the base preheats the stove. I've used this setup in winter (temps in the 20's) on day hikes. When finished, the windscreen wraps around my pot, and the base fits under my pot in the bottom of my pot cozy. So far I have only used this setup for freezer bag cooking, and it works well for that purpose.

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#108766 - 01/04/09 07:07 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: SilasDogood]
Wolfeye Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 413
Loc: Seattle, WA
I've used old fashioned liquid fuel stoves, a Gigapower gas canister stove, and one attempt at an alcohol stove. You can refill liquid stoves by buying more fuel, but these stoves are not light; I'd say their best use is for car camping. You can't refill hiking gas stoves, but you can pick up more cans just about anywhere that sells hiking equipment. Coleman stove fuel is easier to find, but those stoves and fuel are not really light enough for hiking IMHO. They're also ideal for car camping.

Most lighweight hikers end up using alcohol stoves. I think they're okay if you use a good windscreen, and if all you intend to use them for is for heating up water. I prefer gas canister stoves for real cooking, and for the convenience factor. Denatured alcohol is easier to find, though.

I'm not convinced alcohol stoves offer any weight savings over many gas canister stoves... I did a calculation of weight for a Giga stove with a full canister vs. a few of the popular alcohol stoves with an aluminum windscreen, pop bottle to hold fuel, and enough alcohol to match the canister (about 12 meals). They were about the same! Has anyone tried weighing both types of setups to see how they compare in real life?


Edited by Wolfeye (01/04/09 07:08 PM)

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#108768 - 01/04/09 07:28 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: SilasDogood]
SilasDogood Offline
newbie

Registered: 01/04/09
Posts: 3
Loc: Florida, USA
Thanks to everyone for their advice. I figured I'd end up using some kind of canister stove as a few extra ounces won't kill me. I have officially been educated by some tremendously knowledgeable people. Thank you again.

The propane was a joke, a "King of the Hill" reference. Must remember "tone in head" does not equal "tone in text". I was really just curious about the re-usability of the fuel canisters. Thanks again for all the help.

Silas

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#108770 - 01/04/09 08:22 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: billstephenson]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Bill. Look at Jim Woods' Super Cat winter alcohol stove. Also look at Jason Klass's website. One of these stoves-Jason's I think, uses Kevlar string wrapped around the can as a way to preheat the stove. You squirt fuel on the string, then light it. There are some designs that use a pan. Look on the Zen Stoves site. Should be a couple there.

Search for Jim's and Jason's names and their posts should show up.


Edited by TomD (01/04/09 08:23 PM)
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#108775 - 01/04/09 09:02 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: Jimshaw]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

For the original poster, I echo the sentiments of most of the rest here - buy a canister stove. Something like an MSR pocket
rocket, or Snow Peak gigapower. Something small, light, and easy. You can fiddle with alcohol or esbit later - and white gas or kerosene is for special purposes - like deep winter.


Originally Posted By Jimshaw

I got out my ancient XGK (white gas MSR) and lit it this week. It lit pretty easily even in cold wind, but in really bad weather a white gas stove is nearly impossible to get primed and therefore maybe not lit. The XGK does put out enough heat for winter camping, an MSR Whisper-lite is very marginal. I have no experience with any of the new stoves besides the Coleman Xtreme and the 2 burner model.


I've never had any trouble priming any of them, as long as I was a bit patient in serious cold, and they weren't clogged up with crap (which my MSR's have all had a tendancy to do if I've left crud in the lines). With the whisperlite I typically just prime it twice below -20 before attempting to open it up. My ancient XGK only goes to spike camp, and only gets primed with alcohol because it eats kerosene - and my deeply ingrained pyromaina does not extend far enough to like repeatedly priming an XGK with kerosene.

But not enough heat?? Heck, I find the whisperlite has tons, but the XGK? now ok, mines an old round one, but I'm pretty sure it throws something close to 18K BTU's on kerosene, it can't be that much less on white gas. - Got the wrong jet in the old beast?
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#108776 - 01/04/09 09:28 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: SilasDogood]
Bearpaw Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/25/04
Posts: 1732
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By SilasDogood
The propane was a joke, a "King of the Hill" reference.
Silas


Just remember Bobby Hill's famous words: "My daddy says butane is a bast*rd gas". It's all that mixing that keeps it burning in colder weather. grin
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#108779 - 01/04/09 10:04 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: phat]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Phat
my XGK is the original big round model with the yellow pump. It has so much body work that the gas at the bottom sort of has a windscreen enough to make it work.

Anyway a question for you and Jak and others way up north. I have been in 50 mph winds and trying to prime my liquid gas stove. I either had to light it in the vestibule and risk a flare up, or dig a hole, put the stove inside its own mini snow cave and reach in and light it. I have been in driving snowstorms where we simply gave up on lighting the XGK. I have sometimes taken it into the tent and warmed the preheat cup with my lighter then taken it outside to prime, but the stove isn't truly windproof until its lit. Al it takes is a spark to light a canister stove.

And we also maybe didn't mention - if you do cook inside a tent or vestibule, use only a canister stove and have adequate ventilation.

For snow melting I prefer an XGK or Xtreme stove with a 2 liter Ti pan with an MSR heat exchanger on it inside a windscreen. I turn the heat down until the flames just come up to the top of the pan. This makes the most efficient snow melter that I know of.

I guess finally - I have put SS and Ti pans of the same size by the same manufacturer side by side on snow and poured an equal amount of boiling water into each. The water in the titanium pan cooled off much more quickly.

Jim
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#108782 - 01/04/09 10:30 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: Jimshaw]
thecook Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 541
Loc: Minnesota
Jim,
I've never had problems with my whisperlight in the winter, even down to -15 F and a stiff wind. Of course, I've never used it in the kind of blizard conditions you described and I'd never try to use it in a tent. For the whisperlight, I set up the windscreen before I prime and use the space inside the windscreen to strike the match or lighter. That way, the wind does not put out my ignition source. In warmer weather, I never fill the priming cup more than 1/4 but in really cold weather it may take a full priming cup to get the stove to light cheefully. The MSR stoves were cranky beasts before the shaker jets came out. Since then, I've never had a clogged jet or fuel line with white gas.
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#108787 - 01/05/09 02:12 AM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: thecook]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Hey Jim, Didn't you have the tin foil windscreen around it? I still have mine since my stove hasn't gotten all that much use, even though it is one of the old round ones. Is there anything hotter than an XGK?

Mine has the old yellow pump too, in spite of my best efforts to melt it down into a puddle of plastic. eek

XGK cranky? Buy a Nova if you want to see cranky. frown


Edited by TomD (01/05/09 02:14 AM)
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#108792 - 01/05/09 08:50 AM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: thecook]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
Man, I've never come close to filling the priming cup on my Internationale even a quarter full. The most I have done is leaked enough into the bottom to see, sometimes I have to leak more in until it takes off at the burner. No issues starting at below zero temps, although I have never used it in high winds like Jim was trying to do. My stove is over 25 years old.

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#108795 - 01/05/09 10:58 AM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: Jimshaw]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

I do find that if it's howling, I have to dig a hole / find a crevice / rock down the windscreen etc, in order to prime it. I don't find that really any different from the canister other than the lack of priming. I can't run my canister stove directly exposed to howling winds even when it is warm enough to do it.

My last winter trip I actually took my new/old garage sale svea - again, two good primes in shelter before I even tried to lite it. it lit up fine with no pumping.

I do vestibule/tarp/tent very carefully cook in winter, but
I actually typically carry a bottle of methyl alcohol to prime with for these situations - habit left over from kerosene stoves - it doens't flare up and lets me do things like warm up a svea or whisperlite without tons of soot and flaring.
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#108798 - 01/05/09 11:37 AM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: Wolfeye]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
“Has anyone tried weighing both types of setups to see how they compare in real life?”

Alcohol for 12 meals = 9 oz (in weight; .75 oz/meal, this includes ~30% extra)
Alcy stove, windscreen, pot support = 1.5 oz
Alcy container for 9oz = 1 oz
Total weight on 1st day = 11.5oz
Total weight end of 7th day = 2.5oz depending on how much alcy left over.

Average carried weight = 7.0 oz/day

Giga fuel container full weight = 7oz (burn 1/4oz)
Giga stove = 3.6oz
Total weight on 1st day = 10.6 oz
Total weight on end of 7th day = 7.6oz

Average carried weight = 9.1oz/day

A good alcohol setup is always lighter than canister.

When people first try an alcohol stove, they may base all their conclusions on it. So if it’s a poor performer people give up. Titanium alcy stoves are also poor performers. If an alcy stove doesn’t have to be primed and can be easily lit at 0F, then it’s a good setup IMHO. Plus, with alcy you don’t have to worry about using a ½ or ¼ filled canister and thus requiring a 2nd canister for backup. And money is saved smile. Also, with alcy, fuel containers are reusable smile. Another bonus with the alcy is cold performance is much better than the Giga.

-Barry

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#108806 - 01/05/09 01:12 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: BarryP]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Actually SGT rock's site had some very good comparisons on
a per-day basis for exactly this type of stuff. Yeah.. have a look Here

My experience tends to hold it out - I am lighter total with alcohol and a good alky stove rig (penny stove) for about 6 person days, doing 2 cups of water in the morning and 2+ in the evening. Above that, a light canister stove (a -la MSR pocket rocket or snow peak) starts to be lighter, depending on the size cartridge you take. So barring other factors I'd say if you're out for 7 or more person days as described above at a time, a canister is lighter. There are of course other factors that might make you do alky on a longer trip - fuel availability, etc. Were I ever to attempt a long thru hike in canada where I were resupplying myself, I would still do alcohol, because I can get it (as heet type stuff) in every gas station in the country. I can't get isopro canisters everywhere.

As you mention as well, it also depends on if you're looking at the max weight carried, or the average over a long trip.

White gas stoves have always been in total too heavy to compete - even though in theory the fuel is more efficient -
haven't checked that out with my 9 oz borde stove yet smile





Edited by phat (01/05/09 01:14 PM)
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#108898 - 01/07/09 02:23 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: phat]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
“Above that, a light canister stove (a -la MSR pocket rocket or snow peak) starts to be lighter, depending on the size cartridge you take.”

Alcohol for 26 meals = 20 oz (in weight; .75 oz/meal, this includes ~30% extra)
Alcy stove, windscreen, pot support = 1.5 oz
Alcy container for 20oz = 1 oz
Total weight on 1st day = 22.5oz
Total weight end of 14th day = 3oz depending on how much alcy left over.

Average carried weight = 12.8 oz/day

Giga fuel container full weight = 14 oz (includes 2 containers, burn 1/4oz /meal for 26 meals)
Giga stove = 3.6oz
Total weight on 1st day = 17.6 oz
Total weight on end of 14th day = 11.1oz

Average carried weight = 14.4oz/day

No matter what, it still appears good alcohol setup is always lighter than canister. On day 7, alcy setup starts going lighter and that’s why the overall average is lower than giga/canister. And 0.75oz (not fl. oz) /2C-H2O meal is pretty generous for a good alcy stove.

-Barry

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#108905 - 01/07/09 03:46 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: BarryP]
Eric Offline
member

Registered: 09/23/02
Posts: 294
Loc: The State of Jefferson
One caveat on the alcohol vs canister question. Some land managers consider alcohol stoves, along with solid fuel stoves, "open fires" since they don't have a shutoff valve. This means you can't use them during fire season when open fires are banned.

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#108913 - 01/07/09 06:17 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: BarryP]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By BarryP

No matter what, it still appears good alcohol setup is always lighter than canister. On day 7, alcy setup starts going lighter and that’s why the overall average is lower than giga/canister.


as I mentioned, it depends if you look at max weight or average. You're correct for any sane number of meals I believe, about the average.. There's good reasons to care about both - the average for obvious reasons, but the max to know what you're gonna carry on your heaviest days. By the time I'm at day 7 I care less about the fuel burn because I've eaten so much food out of my pack that I'm practially levitating down the trail (tie a string to me and float me in the macy's parade.... woot!)

Quote:

And 0.75oz (not fl. oz) /2C-H2O meal is pretty generous for a good alcy stove.


I budget the same, although I wouldn't call it "generous" when starting with water that's usually a couple degrees above freezing even in august. I find that number matches my practical in field use with a penny stove.. Your starting water temp matters a heck of a lot smile

But in any case we digress - I still carry alky on almost all my trips - I'm paranoid - I don't even trust the stupid lindal valves on the canisters not to ruin my trip smile





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#108914 - 01/07/09 06:18 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: Eric]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
my alky stove has a shutoff valve. I drop it's lid on it and it's off.

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#108921 - 01/07/09 06:42 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: BarryP]
Spock Offline
member

Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 679
Loc: Central Texas
Boy, I almost don't want to get into this, but if weight is the issue, Esbit beats everything else. Using the BPL folding Esbit burner with oven liner windscreen and base, the rig weighs 0.9 oz. A regular Esbit tablet weighs 14 g or about 0.5 oz and will bring 3 cups of water to a rolling boil under almost any realistic conditions and will do 4 cups most of the time. It takes 0.25 oz to boil 2 cups down to the single digits. Just blow the flame out when the water boils and save it for the next meal. Or use 0.25 oz tabs such as Coghlans.

So using the criteria stated in earlier posts:

Fuel for 12 meals @ 2 cups per meal with 33% reserve for that extra cup of tea = 4 oz.
Fuel container (small z-loc) = 0.1
Burner, windscreen, base = 0.9
Total first day = 5 oz.
Total last day = 1 oz.

If you stretch that to 26 meals, at 0.25 oz fuel per meal and a 33% reserve = 8.7
Fuel container = .1
Burner, windscreen, base = 0.9
Total first day = 9.7
Total last day = 1 oz.

Its really hard to beat that.


Edited by Spock (01/07/09 06:48 PM)

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#108922 - 01/07/09 06:47 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: Spock]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada


Esbit beats almost everything - if you can stand the smell smile picking up three rocks to set your pot on and building a twig fire underneath it beats Esbit. but isn't exactly LNT



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#108923 - 01/07/09 06:53 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: phat]
Spock Offline
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Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 679
Loc: Central Texas
Sure, Phat, but Esbit is LNT - if you don't count the smell. That's a trace, I guess.

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#108925 - 01/07/09 06:57 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: Spock]
phat Offline
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Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
well, that and when I get too close and ralf my cookies onto the forest floor... that's a trace too wink
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#108930 - 01/07/09 07:42 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: phat]
Spock Offline
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Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 679
Loc: Central Texas
But think of all the weight you save. That big dinner you don't have to haul around.

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#108936 - 01/07/09 08:36 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: Spock]
Folkalist Offline
member

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 374
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
But, but, but, he HAS to have the big dinner. He sleeps in the woods in CANADA! He'll freeze to death if he doesn't have the big meal to keep him alive. Or, er, I think that's what MNS told us about food and staying warm? crazy
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#108938 - 01/07/09 08:44 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: Folkalist]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Must be MNS - she's up in the cold without all he builtin reserves - me - I have evolutionary ties to the walrus..



Edited by phat (01/07/09 08:44 PM)
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#108940 - 01/07/09 08:46 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: phat]
Folkalist Offline
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Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 374
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
grin
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#108978 - 01/08/09 12:41 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: TomD]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Tom, Thanks for the leads to that info. Both those guys have really done some great work there.

That "Super Cat" design is really quite incredible and I've got to make one.

I still want to try one of those little "tea candles" under a pop can stove to see how it affects performance. If it doesn't blow-up it should make it burn hotter smile

Bill
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#109038 - 01/09/09 08:22 AM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: billstephenson]
leadfoot Offline
member

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 954
Loc: Virginia
tealite stoves are good for less than 2 cups of water. Just fill and burn. I think it's the easiest way to go. I tried that method for a 6 day trip and it worked just fine.

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#109050 - 01/09/09 12:33 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: SilasDogood]
ttaboro Offline
member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 18
Loc: Middle Tennessee
I built the tea light stove from Jason's website last spring. I thought it worked pretty good. I never could get my water to a rolling boil though.

A later post of his suggested a "wash tub" from Hobby Lobby, it goes in a dollhouse. This actually holds a bit more fuel than the tealight and is sturdier. Still couldn't get my water to a rolling boil but it did have some bubbles coming up. I did the set up he shows on his blog...with an integrated pot stand. It all fits nicely in my Heiny pot and is super light.

I'm using my JetBoil over the winter but the tea light or wash tub stove worked well enough that I'll probably use it again in warm weather.

Millette

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#109059 - 01/09/09 01:47 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: ttaboro]
hoz Offline
member

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 138
Loc: midwest
I found a cheaper alternative to the "Doll House Washtub" stove.

In the kitchen section of Bed, Bath and Beyond I found small metal "ramekins" with a fluted edge that holds exactly 1oz alky.

They have bigger sizes also, but the 1oz looked good formy IMUSA mug.

The surprise? They cost 29 cents!!!

I put a "lid" of aluminum foil on the top and cut a 1" hole in the middle to further concentrate the flame.

Boiled 2 cups of water easily.



Edited by hoz (01/10/09 08:41 AM)
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#109077 - 01/09/09 07:44 PM Re: Fuel Dilemma [Re: hoz]
ttaboro Offline
member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 18
Loc: Middle Tennessee
Shoot...I bought two of those wash tubs!

I'll have to try the idea of concentrating the flame that may be my problem with not getting a good boil.

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