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#107550 - 12/05/08 01:39 PM New DOI regulation related to hand guns.
Fets Offline
newbie

Registered: 06/20/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Cleveland, OH

http://www.doi.gov/news/08_News_Releases/120508.html

Didn't see a discussion on this yet, what does everyone think?

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#107551 - 12/05/08 02:03 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Fets]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
Some will love it, some will not. I'm in the latter group.
_________________________
--Rick

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#107552 - 12/05/08 02:18 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Rick_D]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
The first time someone's kid gets killed by a camper who thought they heard a bear or someone gets shot because they complained about someone else making noise, we'll see what a good idea this was. It will happen and probably sooner than later.

Rangers have enough to worry about, let alone people running around the parks carrying handguns.
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#107553 - 12/05/08 03:04 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: TomD]
Dryer Offline

Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
Quote:
It will happen and probably sooner than later.


Maybe, or the inverse could happen. Not much. People have been carrying guns illegally in national parks for decades. The law is talking about trained, CHL holders only being allowed, and the stats show them to be ultra-law abiding, with very few incidents. Time will tell. (unlicensed people will still illegally carry, no doubt)

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/ConvictionRatesReport2006.pdf
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#107554 - 12/05/08 03:23 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Rick_D]
Pika Offline
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1814
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
I don't like the idea very much myself. But, I suspect that the requirement of a concealed carry permit (CCW) from the state in which the park is located will reduce the number of gunslingers considerably. Moreover, a person who holds a concealed carry permit has to have attended a class on the legal issues of the use of deadly force and also has to show some minimum competence with a pistol. This should markedly reduce reckless behavior with guns.

In Arizona, anyone not a convicted felon or adjudged mentally incompetent can obtain a CCW. But, at least when I got mine, the permit holder had to pay for and attend two eight-hour days of class and show a minimum level of accuracy with, and safe handling of, the weapon before the permit was issued. You are also fingerprinted and the state runs a FBI check to be sure you are not a felon. I think that the effort required to get a CCW and the sobering lectures on criminal and civil liability surrounding use of a concealed weapon will ensure a reasonably high standard of responsible behavior. As far as I am aware, no holder of a CCW in Arizona has yet used their pistol in any criminal endeavor or unjustified shooting. I'm sure that will change but at present, CCW holders seem to be a pretty responsible group of citizens.
_________________________
May I walk in beauty.

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#107555 - 12/05/08 04:48 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: TomD]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
This fellow, for example, has a concealed carry permit:

Article
_________________________
--Rick

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#107556 - 12/05/08 04:50 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Dryer]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
The problem with rules like this is they encourage vigilante justice. The new laws regarding self-defense have resulted in store clerks chasing people down the street after shoplifting and gunning them down for taking some beer or the homeowner who sees someone stealing his neighbor's tv so he goes out into his yard and kills them. Both of these are true events. Whether someone gets charged or not isn't even the point. These laws encourage people to get into gunfights or shoot people for minor offenses.

I wouldn't be keen on someone stealing something out of my tent, but at the same time, I don't think I would be justified killing them for it. The NRA thinks otherwise.

http://tinyurl.com/6hbspx

No doubt there are plenty of stories about gun owners rightfully protecting their property or themselves, but too often, the victims are innocent bystanders. Fortunately, in the case of Plaxico Burress, the only person he managed to shoot in a crowded nightclub was himself and he had a permit at one time in Florida.


Edited by TomD (12/05/08 04:57 PM)

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#107557 - 12/05/08 06:32 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: TomD]
Tango61 Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 931
Loc: East Texas Piney Woods
TomD,
I believe the two incidents you refer to regarding vigilante justice were not performed by CHL individuals. If I am mistaken, I will gladly stand corrected. As Dryer points out, CHL folks are by and large ultra-conservative in their use of fire arms.

The one thing that is not total clear in this ruling is reciprocity. Texas has agreements with several other states regarding CHL. They way I read this that it is only in that state (e.g. Grand Canyon would only accept Arizona, Davy Crockett NF in Texas would only accept Texas).

I would prefer that if I had a CHL in Texas, I could legally carry in any national park or forest where that state has a reciprocity agreement with Texas (e.g Oklahoma, Louisiana, New Mexico). Of course, it might be a moot point if I could get a CHL from Arizona just based on my CHL from Texas and a background check. Heck, I'd even take a rules/regulation test from AZ if they would accept my training hours and shooting scores from TX. I'm just using AZ as an example. This could be with any state.

Just my $0.02.

Tango

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#107558 - 12/05/08 08:02 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Tango61]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Tango, the incidents I referred to where in the story I linked to and were not so much about a CWP or CHL as you call them down your way, but the relaxed "self-defense" laws that open up a whole argument as to what is "self-defense." Running after someone and shooting them, is hardly self-defense in my opinion.

In the case of the neighbor, I think he had called the cops and they told him to stay inside. Instead he took a shotgun, went outside and shot the two burglars in his neighbor's yard or at the street. They were unarmed, but he wasn't charged. That makes no sense to me.

The last thing I am interested in is wondering if the next person I come across in a national park is going to think that I'm somehow a threat to them, pull out a handgun and shoot me, then claim self-defense. If I'm dead, they have the perfect alibi.


Edited by TomD (12/05/08 08:06 PM)
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#107559 - 12/05/08 09:20 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: TomD]
Dryer Offline

Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
I know of no 'relaxed' self defense laws. I do know about the "Castle Doctrine" and the right to defend one's property (home) with deadly force. With few exceptions, it's used rarely and the line between defense and murder is very thin. The CHL classes spend a majority of time teaching that deadly force usually results in a lifetime of grief and is a dire last resort, and that non-violent conflict resolution is prime. This is why many CHL holders choose not to carry, or carry with discretion....they've been educated. Think if it as "a well regulated militia". The data speaks for itself.

Quote:
The last thing I am interested in is wondering if the next person I come across in a national park is going to think that I'm somehow a threat to them, pull out a handgun and shoot me, then claim self-defense. If I'm dead, they have the perfect alibi.


They would likely be charged with murder. As I indicated before, you've already come across such people and probably never new it. Illegal carry has been happening in national parks since parks were parks. What happens now is that CHL holders are allowed to carry, unlicensed lawbreakers now face much stiffer penalties if caught. I'm fine with that.

Tim brings up a good point regarding reciprocity. Most states now recognise each other's licensure. Also, in Texas, it's lawful to carry a concealed firearm in you car, with no license. Apparently that doesn't carry over to national parks, which is probably a good thing.
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#107560 - 12/05/08 09:25 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: TomD]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
I don't get the CHL part. Its just wrong to allow concealed and not displayed weapons. I usually use a shoulder holster over my coat. Its more American to display your weapon.

That said, people have used other rights like self defense of home as defined as including vehicle and RV, as a reason to carry anywhere. I never heard about having your guns broken down being ok in federal parks. I thought all guns except for LEO were forbidden.

Here inBend the percentage of people with a CHL is high - I think the local college adult learning section has a one day class. Sometimes I wonder if terrorists attact Bend, how many armed citizens would return fire with loaded concealed weapons. You would have to be insane to burglarize a home in central Oregon here in redneck and hunting country doncha know. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Ifn ya'all don't have a deer rifle then you aint fertilizer. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#107561 - 12/05/08 11:11 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Dryer]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
LA is infamous for road rage and car to car shootings, so being allowed to carry a weapon in the car would be a bad idea here. You'd have a lot of people up-armoring their cars if they could afford it. It would be like driving around Baghdad.
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#107562 - 12/06/08 04:38 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Dryer]
oldneez Offline


Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 7
Loc: North Carolina
I'm a new member, but I wanted to comment on this thread. I have a concealed carry permit and have never carried in a national park, because it's against the law. I have a friend who asked for my advice when he purchased his first handgun. He wanted it for home protection and to carry in parks when he goes hiking. I advised him that it is illegal to carry in the parks, and I suggested he take the CCW class to learn the various aspects of the laws regarding the use of deadly force. As has been stated, most the class is spent teaching that deadly force is only a last resort and that it will result in lengthy, expensive legal problems.

That said, if this measure is approved, I will probably quietly carry a small handgun in the parks of my state for my own protection and that of my family. We all like to think of the parks as a safe refuge from the ugly parts of life. Unfortunately, there have been too many crimes against hikers to believe that anymore.

To get a concealed carry permit you have to be fingerprinted and undergo the same background check as a LEO. It's not a simple process. I believe those with CCW permits are among the safest and most law abiding folks you can be around.

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#107563 - 12/06/08 05:39 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Jimshaw]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Quote:
I usually use a shoulder holster over my coat. Its more American to display your weapon.


In the woods or wilderness I think you should have your weapon as handy as possible. The idea of conceling a weapon is two fold. 1. If some thug gets the drop on you well, they have the drop on you and thats that. But in a carjacking situation, some thugs will just shoot you then take your car. Sometimes they will take your car etc and shoot you anyway. So conceiling may be good in having some element of suprise. 2. Keeping your gun hidden keeps people from feeling like there in the old west. Out of sight out of mind. You might add a #3 or so if you like. Just my thoughts. In a public park like yellowstone etc. I don't think that guns are needed. But in the wilderness, well, thats another subject...
_________________________
Enjoy your next trip...

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#107564 - 12/06/08 05:57 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Jimshaw]
Dryer Offline

Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
Quote:
I never heard about having your guns broken down being ok in federal parks. I thought all guns except for LEO were forbidden.


I ran into that this year at Big Bend N.P. When I checked in, the ranger asked if we had any firearms, and if so, they must be unloaded, broken down, and stored in the trunk (i drive a 4runner...no trunk....but i didn't have a gun anyway). I think the idea is designed for people passing through in their RV's going cross country.


oldneez said:
Quote:
I have a concealed carry permit and have never carried in a national park, because it's against the law.


Exactly. You are a law abiding citizen. All the data (see my link way up there somewhere) about crime and CHL holders shows them to be extra-law abiding, and I believe that data helped in the National Park decision. When I took my CHL class, I was quite impressed by the mix of people in the class and the overall good will. We all had to pass two background checks, get fingerprinted, pass a shooting test, then a written test. It took almost 6 months for the process to be completed. There were a couple of people culled out of the class due to past legal issues, one child support delinquency and one outstanding traffic warrant. Everyone walked out educated and warned of consequences. Unlike a typical street thug that bought a stolen gun and hijacks cars....but that street thug who preys on easy prey, now knows the prey isn't as easy as it once was.


TomD said:
Quote:
LA is infamous for road rage and car to car shootings, so being allowed to carry a weapon in the car would be a bad idea here. You'd have a lot of people up-armoring their cars if they could afford it. It would be like driving around Baghdad.



Yup, LA is always in the movies and cop shows. In 1998, Texas decided to go the Concealed Handgun License route. There was huge outrage that our streets would become battle grounds. The opposite happened....crime dropped. The number 1 opponent of the law is now a supporter, after the data started rolling in. I originally opposed the law and I'm a hunter since grade school.
The majority of cops here like the idea.....i was told to get licensed by a cop, and my instructor was a cop and retired chief. I believe the law is probably as close to the essence of the 2nd Amendment as we've ever gotten.
I think the difference is "law abiding" vs. "law breaking" people with regard to any crime, in parks or elsewhere.
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#107565 - 12/06/08 06:36 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Fets]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
I think you have far more to worry about an unlicensed individual carrying illegally than from a licensed individual carrying legally. I don't believe this law will affect the individual safety of those that don't carry one iota.

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#107566 - 12/06/08 06:43 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: oldneez]
scottyb Offline
member

Registered: 05/28/08
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas Hill Country
Quote:
I'm a new member, but I wanted to comment on this thread. I have a concealed carry permit and have never carried in a national park, because it's against the law. I have a friend who asked for my advice when he purchased his first handgun. He wanted it for home protection and to carry in parks when he goes hiking. I advised him that it is illegal to carry in the parks, and I suggested he take the CCW class to learn the various aspects of the laws regarding the use of deadly force. As has been stated, most the class is spent teaching that deadly force is only a last resort and that it will result in lengthy, expensive legal problems.

That said, if this measure is approved, I will probably quietly carry a small handgun in the parks of my state for my own protection and that of my family. We all like to think of the parks as a safe refuge from the ugly parts of life. Unfortunately, there have been too many crimes against hikers to believe that anymore.

To get a concealed carry permit you have to be fingerprinted and undergo the same background check as a LEO. It's not a simple process. I believe those with CCW permits are among the safest and most law abiding folks you can be around.


This is a prime example. Anti-gun laws only effect law abiding citizens. They have no effect on criminals other than to embolden them in knowing that their prey can not protect themselves. When the CWL law passed in Texas, it was partly due to one of our legislators passionate support. Her parents were victims of the Luby's masacre in Kileen, TX, where the gunman rammed his car into the building, then mythodically waked around and shot the defenseless people.


Edited by scottyb (12/06/08 06:51 AM)
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Just because you don't take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you.... Pericles (430 B.C)

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#107567 - 12/06/08 08:45 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: scottyb]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
I've never felt compelled to carry a gun when bping. I used to manage a minimarket for many years and at times wondered if I ought to have a weapon at work. Company policy didn't allow that, so the point was mute. We only got held up once, in all the years I was there and the perp used a wrench. Now, with all the laws, I worry about even carrying one of my guns to the shooting range, a few miles away to practice. I guess I am ok, as long as my gun is located away from my ammo when transporting, such as the ammo in the trunk or bed of my vehicle, depending on what I am driving. Over on The Backpacker last year, Prosecutor mentioned what to tell the law after you shot someone in your house or in self defense. Something police respected while they hauled you to jail. Shooting and killing someone is something you will have to live with the rest of your life.

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#107568 - 12/06/08 09:29 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: oldneez]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
I don't get how a piece of paper makes a person safer? In a lot of places, gun permits are handed out as political favors and even where there's a set of criteria, fools still get them.

Quote:

Marysville man held in shooting of daughter, 6

By Sonia Krishnan and Christine Clarridge

Seattle Times staff reporters

The father of a 6-year-old Marysville girl who was fatally shot at her home Sunday had been drinking double shots of vodka while he cleaned his guns, according to probable-cause documents.

Richard Peters told Snohomish County sheriff's deputies he had drunk several double vodkas when one of the guns discharged, striking his daughter Stormy in the head, according to the court papers. The girl was airlifted to Seattle Children's Hospital, where she died early Monday, said sheriff's Lt. Jeff Brand.

When later questioned by deputies, Peters said he felt that at the time of the shooting he would have been too intoxicated to drive.

Peters, 42, was arrested and is being held on investigation of first-degree manslaughter. He is being held in the Snohomish County Jail in lieu of $250,000 bail.

Stormy was a first-grade student at Quil Ceda Elementary School in the Marysville School District.

Peters' other two children, an 8-year-old and a 3-year-old, have been removed from the home by Child Protective Services, according to Rebecca Hover, spokeswoman for the Snohomish County Sheriff's Office.

Peters was at home with his wife and three children on Sunday night when he sent Stormy upstairs to fetch a Colt Double Eagle .45-caliber handgun from his nightstand. Snohomish County sheriff's investigators said Peters told them he took out the magazine, pulled the trigger and the gun went off.

Peters called 911 at 7:26 p.m. to report that his daughter had been shot in the head at their home in the 4500 block of 83rd Place Northwest. He told a 911 operator that he and his daughter were cleaning guns when the girl was shot, deputies said.

Peters later told deputies the Colt has a "hair trigger."

According to the probable-cause document, deputies said neither of the couple's other children were in the room at the time of the shooting. They reported that they found vodka and a spent shell casing in the room.

Detectives completed their on-scene investigation Monday, Hover said. They removed other firearms from the house, but she did not specify how many weapons or which types.

According to deputies, Peters told them he had been in the military, was "very proficient" with firearms and that he had both a license and a permit to carry concealed weapons.

He also told deputies that all of his children handle weapons, according to court documents.

According to deputies, Peters told them this wasn't the first accidental discharge he had experienced while handling firearms. He said a shotgun accidentally fired during a "pumpkin shoot" in Darrington the day after Halloween when a friend handed him what he thought was an unloaded shotgun and he pulled the trigger, firing a round. No one was hurt.

Neighbors on Monday described the Peters family as "wonderful people."

"This is a terrible tragedy for the whole neighborhood," said neighbor Erika Smith.

She said the Peters children were among a group of five in the close-knit neighborhood who played together constantly. The death of the 6-year-old has been devastating for them all, she said.
_________________________
--Rick

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#107569 - 12/06/08 11:01 AM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Fets]
Bearpaw Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/25/04
Posts: 1732
Loc: Tennessee
This won't change much except to give Americans the rights they are already guaranteed in the Constitution.

In the early 90's, many poeple decried the "bloodbath" that would ensue when states began authorizing concealed cary permits for law-abiding citizens. It never happened. In fact, violent crime rates in the great majority of those locales have dropped.

Of course, this won't change any one's opinion, so I'll leave it at that and bow out of this debate.
_________________________
http://www.trailjournals.com/BearpawAT99/

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#107570 - 12/06/08 11:04 AM not another gun thread [Re: TomD]
Goatee Offline
member

Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 258
Loc: Idahoo
I like going to the parks in the Fall to get away from guns but I guess they are allowed in church so.....
_________________________
Catch & Release unless you are starving!

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#107571 - 12/06/08 11:56 AM Re: not another gun thread [Re: Goatee]
aimless Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3292
Loc: Portland, OR
Gun threads are just a fact of life in outdoors forums. You can choose to participate or not.

I am not a gun owner and don't see that ever changing, but I think gun laws and regulations are everyone's business, so I often look in on the gun threads to see if that is being discussed. If so, I sometimes express an opinion, respectfully.

If all that's being discussed are gun specs and other technicalities, I have nothing useful to add.

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#107572 - 12/06/08 12:10 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: Bearpaw]
northernbcr Offline
member

Registered: 05/26/08
Posts: 125
Loc: bc/yukon border area
our biggst problem up here as i see it, is that people who work in the bush ie timber cruisers, miners, trappers are not allowed to carry handguns. they are the ones that need it. the rest of us can do well with bear spray.

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#107573 - 12/06/08 12:26 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: northernbcr]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
I think it would be better if people just carried sticks, and we all just lightened up a bit.
Until then I guess people have to make their choices, especially with their children.

So far at least the Grizzlies are doing their part, better than we are for the most part. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#107574 - 12/06/08 12:38 PM Re: New DOI regulation related to hand guns. [Re: JAK]
northernbcr Offline
member

Registered: 05/26/08
Posts: 125
Loc: bc/yukon border area
jak i agree with your statement that the bears are doing there part better than us. most of our problems are based on the fact that we have over protected our bears alowing the populations to get dangerously high and the bears losing there inherent fear of man.

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