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#107436 - 12/05/08 07:12 AM $200 and 20lb challenge
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
I have to first credit phat for this idea. Moderators, if this belongs in another area, feel free to move it. Maybe it belongs in the beginner area. Anyways, there is a constant problem newbies and especially scouts face when backpacking. Getting the weight down, and not breaking the bank, and usually the bank has very small funds. Plus, you have to look at growing boys and not knowing how long this hobby will last. Well, for every challenge you need rules. The first two, it has to be under $200, and without food or water, 20lb. The 20lbs includes the clothes and shoes on the body, along with stuff to hold water and cook food. The location, 3 season Philmont. I believe the nighttime lows can easily reach 20F in 3 season (correct me if I am wrong). Plus, it rains every day (well, it did when I was there). MYOG is encouraged, but it must be easy for someone who has never made one before (and is between the ages of 12 and 18) to make it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I am sure I am missing something. I guess we will see how this goes. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Oh yeah, no sale prices, they aren't predictable.


Edited by finallyME (12/05/08 07:13 AM)
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#107437 - 12/05/08 08:58 AM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: finallyME]
Ender Offline
member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 779
Loc: ME
I really like this thread idea... I'll have to put some thought and research into it before I respond properly. Right off the top of my head though, I think the most difficult think to get into that weight and budget will be the sleeping bag.

I look forward to everyone's responses!

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#107438 - 12/05/08 10:36 AM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: finallyME]
Poma Offline


Registered: 10/01/08
Posts: 3
Loc: Michigan
Shop at your local thrift stores (think Salvation Army and such), they can be a very cheap gold mine for all sorts of goodies.

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#107439 - 12/05/08 11:40 AM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: finallyME]
aimless Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 2838
Loc: Portland, OR
If the premise is that the gear must be all-new at retail and whatever isn't new is guaranteed to be available, either lying around the house already or in plentiful supply at thrift stores, then I am skeptical the $200 limit can be met.

However, I do think our scout is going to be using a plastic tarp and ground cloth, in spite of all the rain he's going to face. Let's hope the scoutmaster knows how to pitch a tarp, because we can't assume the scout does, or his parents either. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

The sleeping bag is going to be tough. To get inside the budget & be warm enough means synthetic and we'll probably spend at least 5 lbs of our weight budget. I'll let someone else carry the ball on that one. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

As for the sleeping pad, a cheapie WalMart blue pad is the obvious choice. Our scout needs the ground insulation in sub-freezing temps. He might have to trim it down somewhat to meet the weight budget.

With all that rain, he'll need rain gear, too. And clothes that won't slurp water like a sponge. I'd consider a sil-nylon poncho, or else a Dri-Ducks type of papery rain suit. I'd check thrift stores for polyester or nylon shirts, pants and shorts.

He's probably going to end up with a Scout-style aluminum mess kit. There is a reason why it is a classic. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry I haven't researched actual weights and prices for these choices. I suspect I've already spent quite a lot of the $$ and weight budgets, even on these cheapie options. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

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#107440 - 12/05/08 11:49 AM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: finallyME]
Ender Offline
member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 779
Loc: ME
OK, to start with I would buy this pack...
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___90387

For $50 list price and 3lbs, 10oz, it's a decent pack. I had a similar pack growing up, with the plastic external frame, and it's still one of the most comfortable packs I've worn. I still have it in fact.

For a stove and cookset, I would make a Pepsican stove and stand, for a total of around 1 ounce. For the pot I would pick up a grease pot at KMart for $5, and 5 ounces. Windscreen would be a scrap piece of aluminum baking pan cut to size... free, and maybe 1 ounce.

For a sleeping pad I would get something like this...

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___41312

$10, and 8 ounces, and while maybe not the most comfortable, it'll be enough padding and will provide enough insulation.

Still haven't figure out shelter and sleeping bag yet, but so far that's the Backpack, Cook gear, and sleeping pad, for $65 and 4 lbs 9 ounces.

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#107441 - 12/05/08 12:06 PM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: finallyME]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
Sounds like fun <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But......exactly what gear do we include in our budget? For instance, is raingear part of the $200.00? Many scouts will already own some. Or is it just the big 3? Are items like navigation gear i.e. compass included? Is everything included in the weight total also included in the budget? How many shirts will each scout need? My point is, everyone's idea of required equipment is different, especially when it's not their own, and your answers are going to be all over the board.

You mentioned clothing on the body is included in the total weight. Does that also include items in the pockets? Or are we talking pure skin out weight? We'll be counting ounces to keep it under 20 pounds.

What is the duration of the trip? It sounds like fuel and other consumables(other than food and water) are included in the total so that makes a difference.

Sorry to be so doggone nit-picky but I work in a nit-picky profession and that spills over into my hobbies <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

The first item on my list is an alcohol stove of some kind, preferably the Super Cat. Light, dependable and almost free.
_________________________
If you only travel on sunny days you will never reach your destination.*

* May not apply at certain latitudes in Canada and elsewhere.

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#107442 - 12/05/08 12:47 PM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: Trailrunner]
aimless Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 2838
Loc: Portland, OR
Speaking of nits, we should have a sense of the physical size of this Scout, so we can figure out what kind of pack and sleeping bag he can fit into. Should we assume a modest 5'6", or is he a gangly 6ft?

I'm tempted to have his mom sew him a Ray-Way pack - just a big nylon bag with shoulder straps - except few moms have that kind of skill anymore, or the time to devote to such pursuits. The alcohol Cat stove idea is simple enough, though. Same thing with the soda-bottle reused as a water bottle - with another one as a fuel bottle. Those are practically free!

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#107443 - 12/05/08 12:51 PM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: Trailrunner]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:
My point is, everyone's idea of required equipment is different, especially when it's not their own, and your answers are going to be all over the board.


I think this is a great point. And, this is the BIGGEST problem with newbies and scouts. Both groups tend to take more than they need. Usually, the younger scouts' moms try to make sure their little baby has everything and loads him up with 4 pairs of extra clothes (all heavy cotton even). Is the discussion of what is NEEDED too much for this little post? Well, probably, so I will say this, boys don't change clothes unless forced to. They put on a jacket when cold, and take it off when warm. Anything more is asking a lot. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> As for trip duration, the average is a weekend, or two nights (although I am in the one night only group for religious reasons). So two nights out.

Don't worry about being nitpicky, I work in a nitpicky profession as well, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> .

The total weight is everything carried minus the nekked body. Another good point you bring up is that many scouts already own equipment. Or, their brothers or cousins have it. But, there are always brand new scouts with nothing, and clueless parents. Or that new person who has never backpacked before and has nothing as far as equipment. This is for them.

Thrift stores are hard to use because they don't always have something, like the ridgerest I bought for $3. But, there are things that they always have, like fleece, wool sweaters, nylon shirts and pants. If you can walk into any thrift store and find it, then it is legal to use in this scenario. The idea is, if you are scoutmaster, and you get a new scout, and their parents are asking what to buy, where do you send them for a guaranteed piece of equipment?
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#107444 - 12/05/08 01:35 PM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: finallyME]
aimless Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 2838
Loc: Portland, OR
(NOTE: I have edited this to reflect additional information about Philmont requirements, as described in a post further below this one.)

If we're starting entirely from scratch, here's a stab at a list of NECESSARY items:

a pack (and a way to keep its contents dry in the rain)
a tent (as per Philmont rule)
tarp to cover pack at night (as per Philmont rule)
a sleeping bag (or quilt or blankets) warm down to 20F
insulation underneath while sleeping (sleeping pad, clothing piled up)

cooking pot
stove and fuel (Philmont rule: cannot be alcohol-based)
eating utensil
water container
optional: a water purification method

toothbrush
light source (flashlight, LED pinchlight, LED headlamp, etc)
whistle (best way to be found when lost)
optional: pocket knife (usu. part of Ten Essentials)

personal rain protection (poncho, rain suit, etc)
warm hat (fleece, wool, etc)
torso warmth layer (fleece, wool, etc)
wind-blocking layer (rain suit, nylon wind breaker, etc)
gloves (too cold to go without these)

footwear (boots, shoes)
sox (probably wool)
pants (not denim, please)
shirt (polyester, please)
underwear

Note: the clothing system needs to be 100% adequate to prevent hypothermia in cold weather with some rain. That probably means something more than just one of every clothing item listed above.


Edited by aimless (12/06/08 08:18 AM)

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#107445 - 12/05/08 02:16 PM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: aimless]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Aimless, great addition. To add, I might need to specify the "rain everyday" I said originally. Having lived in the PNW and Rocky Mountains, there is a big difference. At Philmont, it rains everyday, but not all day. Generally there is an afternoon shower. It does not rain like in the PNW. A poncho is enough for standing around or hiking. As long as the tent is waterproof, then that is sufficient.

The reason I picked Philmont is because it is high on scouts go to list, and many scouts start backpacking because their troop gets a slot to go. So, for a lot of scouts, it is their introduction to BPing and they buy equipment specific for it. It also is a good example of covering many environments. It is mostly high alpine (like the Sierras or Rockies). It is dry and warm during the day (except when it rains) and drops around 30 at night in the summer.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#107446 - 12/05/08 06:02 PM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: finallyME]
Tango61 Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 931
Loc: East Texas Piney Woods

I'll throw in a few more "caveats" as we just went through this drill last summer.

(And yes, it still rains every afternoon at Philmont.)

Crew gear has to meet Philmont requirements so for some things your choices are somewhat restricted. Crews are made up of 8-12 Scouts/Adults. As a crew, we decided what we would take and who would carry it. We spent a year gathering and testing out different gear. Some of it we got through ebay, some from here on this forum, other through fund raiser$$$. Some of it was borrowed from previous year's crews.

Here is a link to a Crew from Arlington, Tx that has sent several groups over the years and seems to have it down pretty goood. This is a link for their home page and from there you can look at their crew gear lists and their personal gear lists. I used these as guidelines rather than absolutes. Some things we took, others we didn't. They do try to cut weight where they can.

http://crew445.org/philmont/2008/

I'm going to work on this over the weekend and see what I can come up with.

Here's the link to the Philmont website:
http://www.scouting.org/HighAdventure/Philmont.aspx

My goal next year is to take some of our Scouts hiking in Arkansas (now that we're in East Texas) and use more of the lightweight techniques that I've learned here.
We'll see how it goes.

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#107447 - 12/05/08 07:36 PM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: finallyME]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Too easy <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Sleeping
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___42050 - 2.7 lbs $55.00
blue pad - wal-mart (wide 27" for hammock use) 1 lb $8.00

shelter:
http://www.imrisk.com/testhammock/testhammock.htm 1.5 lbs $10.00
elastic ridgeline and muslin or mesh bugnet for above
(from walmart - sewing section - you just need a piece
of elastic, a cord, and a big piece of bugnet or veil, etc to drape
over, .5 lbs $10.00
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___20069 .7 lbs $65.00

Clothing 5 lbs?
from thift store down the block( and yes , I actually looked!)
2 pairs poly dress socks $2.00
2 pairs wool socks $4.00
fleece jacket $5.00
nylon swim trunks/shorts $5.00
nylon track pants $5.00
cashemere sweater $5.00
long johns bottoms:
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___05665 $8.00
plastic poncho (wal-mart) $3.00
I'm assuming the kid has 2 pairs of underwear, and a a pair of running
shoes, and two tshirts. a toque, hat, and gloves,

Alky stove (homemade)
small pop bottle for fuel
plastic spoon from Wendy's
Heineken Canpot .3 lb free

2x 1 litre bigmouth pepsi bottles .2 lb $3.00
(you drink the pepsi, then fill with water)

packing:
http://www.backpacking.net/makegear/sgt-rucksack/index.html $10.00
plus garbage back packliner .7 lbs

2x garbage bags for stuff sacks.

I got $180 and I'm *way* under 20 lbs... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
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My 3 season gear list
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#107448 - 12/05/08 08:05 PM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: phat]
aimless Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 2838
Loc: Portland, OR
In the spirit of constructive criticism:



This bag is rated to 35F, while spec required 20F. Also, the 'regular' price at Campmor is shown as $60, whereas the $55 is a (forbidden) 'sale' price. I'm not sure this would cut it for three season use in a high alpine setting, as described by our spec. Otherwise, excellent value and a great find!



I'm assuming the rainfly for the hammock would be rigged from the plastic poncho. A hammock may ("may") be a bit of a tough setup for a high alpine setting, where trees may ("may") be a bit stunted and sparse. Otherwise, an outstanding find!

In the interest of fulldisclosure, I could not have done half so well. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#107449 - 12/05/08 09:57 PM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: finallyME]
BpackerDon Offline
member

Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 87
Loc: Northern Calif
A few things to keep in mind when selecting your Philmont gear. Philmont has some restrictive rules (been there, done that)

1. NO tarps or bivys or hammocks for sleeping. For reasons regarding bears, Philmont REQUIRES a TENT for sleeping. They will, however, require a tarp to be set up for use as a rain fly to protect your packs, which are NOT allowed in the tents.

2. Food- you will resupply several times in your trek, and usually will not have to carry over 4 days worth of food at a time on your 11 day trek (Food pickup interval depends on the actual trek you choose)

3. Philmont strongly discourages ponchos as raingear. Rainsuit is considered a must. It rains a LOT, particularly past mid July.

4. Fuel- the choices sold at Philmont are limited and do NOT include alcohol fuel. They DO include white gas and Powermax fuel. So if you want to use alcohol, you must figure out a way to ship it to Philmont. Also, the way they provide the food, you will most likely be using LARGE pots- 1 or 2 GALLONS as you will be feeding a crew of 7 to 12 scouts and advisors, maybe divided into 2 cook groups. Pot size may not be appropriate for alcohol stoves

5. At some point, you will get a book from Philmont called "Guidebook to Adventure" Please read it in detail. It gives recommended gear lists, and lays out all the special rules.

6.For some really good info, including gear lists and Philmont trip diaries, check out:
http://www.troop111.org/highadv.html

Have a great Philmont trip!

Don

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#107450 - 12/06/08 06:50 AM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: BpackerDon]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
I think we should assume kids are starting from scratch, except when it comes to normal school clothes. Also, I don't think we should target the 12-18 year old age group for this, as that gets up into adult sizes. I am going to focus on the 12 year old, from 3 percentile to 97 percentile boys. That is from 4'5" boys up to 5'5" girls.

Finally, we MUST assume these kids will hike 20km a day, otherwise WE are off on the wrong track!

Growth Charts
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/about/major/nhanes/growthcharts/html_charts/statage.htm

Mark Verbers page on sleeping systems
http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/gear/sleep-system.html

I'm going to tackle the sleeping bag issue first, and update later. When we say 'easily reaches 20degF' I will assume it can get lower but will outfit for 20degF. That calls for 2" of loft, but not neccessarily a 20F rated bag. One problem however is finding a bag to fit the kid. There are fewer kids bags out there than there are kids sizes. A 5' kids bags might work for 50% of 12 years, but too small for about 40% and too large for perhaps 10%.

These might fit 50% of 12 year olds...

This one is 2" of loft, and only 1.2 pounds, but at $190 out of our price range.
It's also probably too roomy for most kids, but you might fit two in. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
http://www.westernmountaineering.com/ind...mp;ContentId=73

This one is >2" loft, and is 2.3 pounds for $80 which ain't bad.
http://www.backcountry.com/store/MHW0846...C_ID=WR_MHW0846

Or, why not make something to custom fit your kid?
http://www.questoutfitters.com/fabric%20lightweight-cart.htm
Nylon shell on outside, 2 layers of Primaloft, fleece on inside...
1.1 UNCOATED RIPSTOP 60"x 1.5yds 2.8oz for $11.25
4oz Primaloft Sport 60"x 4.5yds 30.0oz for $44.78
5.9 oz Fleece 100M 60" x 1.5yds 14.8oz for $16.13
=================================================
3 pounds for $75
That is actually about 2.5" of loft, top and bottom, which is overkill.


Good clothing for 20F and still hikable for 20km will add up, $-wise, unless they shop around. They could get by with what they might alread have for school, but the smaller ones will really be unneccessarily encumbered unless if they get dressed my their mother, unless they go with something like this...

skin layer - normally packed
200wt fleece pants - normally worn
underwear - this I will leave to their mom
skin layer top - normally worn
wool sweater - normally worn
LIGHTWEIGHT nylon rain jacket with hood and pants - normally packed
wool socks.wool mitts. wool hat. wool neck tube

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#107451 - 12/06/08 07:06 AM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: JAK]
Cesar Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 217
Loc: El Paso, TX
Quote:
When we say 'easily reaches 20degF' I will assume it can get lower but will outfit for 20degF. That calls for 2" of loft,


I may be wrong but I was under the impression that synthetic bags dont really have the same loft per degree rating that down does. So in other words a synthetic bag can be as warm as down but with less loft since depending on synthetic type. I think I read this on a discussion of clo values for climashield. So I guess a synthetic bag of 2 inch of loft might not be needed to get 20deg, but like I said I may be wrong.
_________________________
My gear is no where near lightweight

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#107452 - 12/06/08 07:13 AM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: Cesar]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
It could be argued either way. Not a lot of variation in warmth per inch.
I think it is simplest to assume that all insulation varies by weight but is the same warmth per inch.

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#107453 - 12/06/08 07:36 AM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: JAK]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Boots?

Boots for youngsters is a real issue, especially for the smaller kids. My 9 year old daughter is 48" tall, and weighs 50 pounds, and can easily hike 20km/day in snow, but only if you give her time, and it is much much slower in boots. We can safely average 3km/hr without hurrying too much, but not in the boots most place try and sell you. They must be for ATVers or something. I use the 20km/day for up to 4" of snow on a trail as a guideline. That's about 7 hours of travel and 1 hour of lunch for a 48" kid. If they want to do 10km and play for 3 hours that would be fine also. I just want to indicate how unencumbered they should be. I can't give you a canned solution here, 'cause their aint one. Last trip she wore here sneakers and was fine, but what kids really need is a lightweight mukluk or ankle moccasin, and they are really hard to find in smaller sizes, and hard enough in adult sizes also but not so critical. It's when they scale down adult stuff into kids sizes without really giving a thought to function that really bugs the crap out of me.

By age twelve, it is less of an issue but most kids boots are still wrong.
Most sneakers and trail runners hold too much water in non-drying conditions.

So here is another diy project...
http://www.thefarm.org/charities/i4at/surv/mocinstr.htm
Make the ankles high, and leave room for felt insoles and thick wool socks.

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#107454 - 12/06/08 07:58 AM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: BpackerDon]
Cesar Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 217
Loc: El Paso, TX
1. NO tarps or bivys or hammocks for sleeping. For reasons regarding bears, Philmont REQUIRES a TENT for sleeping. They will, however, require a tarp to be set up for use as a rain fly to protect your packs, which are NOT allowed in the tents.

Can this be an item that gets shared? Probably say 3-4 kids per tent? This way they can share the cost? If this is the case then the tent options have greatly improved. Either way I know Alps Mountaineering gives discounts to scouts. So if they split the cost of one of those tents then that would be a great savings.

4. Fuel- the choices sold at Philmont are limited and do NOT include alcohol fuel. They DO include white gas and Powermax fuel. So if you want to use alcohol, you must figure out a way to ship it to Philmont. Also, the way they provide the food, you will most likely be using LARGE pots- 1 or 2 GALLONS as you will be feeding a crew of 7 to 12 scouts and advisors, maybe divided into 2 cook groups. Pot size may not be appropriate for alcohol stoves

If this is the case Im assuming each kid would not need to purchase and lug around a 2 gallon pot. So how does this work do we need to account for the cost but not the weight? On the stove can split the cost of this as well? I got a whisperlight on ebay for 40$ plus $12 for 33oz fuel bottle at a local store. Again can this cost be split between 7-12 scouts?



As for bags I don't know what the difference is between thermolite extra and thermolite extreme but this bag has the same fill weight as the Mountain hardware for a lot less but is only rated at 25*. On the down side its not a name brand like MH bag.
Calypso 25*

for another 5ft bag there is also the TNF Tigger at 2lbs 1oz
TNF Tigger
_________________________
My gear is no where near lightweight

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#107455 - 12/06/08 08:00 AM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: JAK]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
I think there is a real opportunity here that most scout and guide troops and parents seem to miss, myself included up until now, which is to use the problem of inedequate gear and clothing choices as an opportunity for a few critical DIY projects as shared learning experiences. Great was to boost morale in a troop also, if everyone in a troop wears the same troop made moccassins, or bedrolls, or two-person pup tents, hiking staff...

OK, backpacks, once they've started down the road to functional gear and clothing choices...

http://www.primitiveways.com/pack_frame.html
Sylnylon stuff sack, custom fitted triangular wooden packframe.

If we follow my clothing suggestions, keeping the main insulation layers, the weight of clothing packed won't be very much. This leaves the bedroll, skin layers, rain layers, extra socks, blue foam pad, their half of a two-person pup tent, map, compass/whistle/thermometer, knife, matches, buddy burner, mug, spoon, canteen, their share of food. Hat and mitts go in pockets when not warn. So regardless of the size of the kid, they could slide their blue foam pad into their nylon stuff sack, then stuff in their bedroll and food and extra layers, and then tie it onto their homemade triangular wooden packframe.


Maximum Weight Guidelines...

Maximum Skin Out Weight (pounds) = Height(inches) x Height(inches)
e.g. 16 pounds for 48", 25 pounds for 60", 36 pounds for 72"

Packweight shouldn't be much more than 50% of that however, in my opinion.

So for the 'average' 12 year old, 12.5 pound pack and perhaps 4 pounds of clothing worn. That 12.5 pounds would include perhaps 1 pound of water and food for 1 day at a time, or 1.5 pounds. So the base pack weight would be 10 pounds.

1 pound for packframe and nylon pack bag
1 pound for blue foam pad and half of puptent
3 pound for sleeping bag or bedroll
1 pound for nylon raingear
1 pound for socks, map, compass/whistle/thermometer, knife, matches, buddy burner, mug, spoon, canteen
========================================
7 pounds, leaving 3 pounds to spare, perhaps 2 more days of food on a long trip


We must all realize this can be done, because it's been done for over 20,000 years !!!
Most of the struggle is in dealing with our post-modern consumerism. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
You would think that something like Scouts and Guides might be part of the solution. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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#107456 - 12/06/08 08:26 AM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: Cesar]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
OK. Here is my final list (projected 5 years into the future);
After 5 years of lengthy and thorough indoctrination training my kids hate tents and store bought gear, and by now they are a tough flame hardened unit. We take the greyhound down to Philmont, staring down anyone on the bus that looks 'sketchy'. When we get to Philmont we are somewhat bummed because we have to rent tents. So we rent the tents and hike 20km into the Philmont wilderness but pitch our tarps anyway in a tight bivouc formation, with the 'bear or ranger sentries' armed with their hiking staffs and opinel #7 knives and posted to cover 6 overlapping sectors. On the signal we all dive out of our beloved hoochies and into the darn tents. It was just the darned ranger this time. Dang. Maybe next time. Anyway someone whips out their buddy burner and offers him tea, and so we all share ghost and bear stories 'til the wee hours of the morning, then break camp and shoulder up our Ítzi the Iceman packframes and hike 20km deeper into the great unknown, as a fresh Philmont snow begins to fall.

Clothing:
Homemade Ankle Moccassins
Felt insoles
Thin Wool socks
Thick Wool socks
Long underwear bottoms
Light nylon rain bottoms
200wt fleece pants
Long underwear top
hand knit wool sweater (200wt fleece sweater until they get merit badge for knitting)
Light nylon rain top
wool mitts
wool hat
wool neck tube that can cover ears/nose/mouth/neck
troop uniform hat

Gear:
Homemade Triangular Wooden Ítzi the Iceman pack-frame
Large Nylon Stuff Sack for Pack (some kids just use their tarp)
Cord, pegs for tieing pack to frame, and for pitching their puptent
Blue foam sleeping pad
3 pound homemade bedroll (my kids like to call it a bedroll)
Sylnylon Tarp, with velcro seam, for 1/2 of puptent shared with buddy
Wooden Hiking staff - for pitching half of puptent, and striking cool poses
map
compass/whistle/thermometer
knife
matches or flint kit
buddy burner or hobo stove
stainless mug
stainless spoon (my kids ain't no gram weenies)
food for 3 days
water canteen
firstaid/repair kit
other stuff their scoutmaster forgot but they didn't

Special Winter Gear:
cross country skis/boots/poles, or homemade snow shoes

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#107457 - 12/06/08 12:03 PM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: aimless]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
In the spirit of constructive criticism:



This bag is rated to 35F, while spec required 20F. Also, the 'regular' price at Campmor is shown as $60, whereas the $55 is a (forbidden) 'sale' price. I'm not sure this would cut it for three season use in a high alpine setting, as described by our spec. Otherwise, excellent value and a great find!


Well, I'd supplement with some warm clothing in bed, but if you really want, go down a few - there were
lots of choices there in the middle weight range. Or better yet, have 'em build a ray-way style quilt
for that hammock, but I was being a bit lazy since I already put two DIY projects in there <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I also think the ratings are a complete crock of crap - but that's another story well discussed
already here <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Quote:



I'm assuming the rainfly for the hammock would be rigged from the plastic poncho. A hammock may ("may") be a bit of a tough setup for a high alpine setting, where trees may ("may") be a bit stunted and sparse. Otherwise, an outstanding find!

In the interest of fulldisclosure, I could not have done half so well. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Nope - that's what that nice 8x10 silnylon tarp is for - I could have gone 6x8 to save weight but I think considering the likelyhood of going somewhere rainy, having a bigger area to stand under out of the rain as well as keep the hammock dry is a very nice thing. particularly for a kid.
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#107458 - 12/06/08 12:23 PM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: Cesar]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
1. NO tarps or bivys or hammocks for sleeping. For reasons regarding bears, Philmont REQUIRES a TENT for sleeping. They will, however, require a tarp to be set up for use as a rain fly to protect your packs, which are NOT allowed in the tents.


Yeah.. because 1.1 silnylon is bear armor.. and I can't put a garbage bag over my pack and hang it? (
hello! I almost NEVER have my pack with me at night)

Quote:

Can this be an item that gets shared? Probably say 3-4 kids per tent? This way they can share the cost? If this is the case then the tent options have greatly improved. Either way I know Alps Mountaineering gives discounts to scouts. So if they split the cost of one of those tents then that would be a great savings.


Yes, absolutely it can, and by teaching people the only way to camp is in 4 person expedition tents we teach scouts a certain way to backpack that almost guarantees they will not be able to do it in later life. we're talking about getting them gear they can build on if they enjoy the sport, yet by making this decision (which is an easy one to make, because it saves money and is much easier on the leader to have say, 5 big shelters that work instead of worrying about each kid having their feces conglomorated) we're making sure nobody has the most basic of gear to go out with a couple of people.

Quote:

4. Fuel- the choices sold at Philmont are limited and do NOT include alcohol fuel. They DO include white gas and Powermax fuel. So if you want to use alcohol, you must figure out a way to ship it to Philmont. Also, the way they provide the food, you will most likely be using LARGE pots- 1 or 2 GALLONS as you will be feeding a crew of 7 to 12 scouts and advisors, maybe divided into 2 cook groups. Pot size may not be appropriate for alcohol stoves

If this is the case Im assuming each kid would not need to purchase and lug around a 2 gallon pot. So how does this work do we need to account for the cost but not the weight? On the stove can split the cost of this as well? I got a whisperlight on ebay for 40$ plus $12 for 33oz fuel bottle at a local store. Again can this cost be split between 7-12 scouts?


Sounds to me like philmont (forgive me I was never in USA boy scouts) is geared toward jamboree style
heavy camping rules and exactly *not* the thing to teach kids how to do reasonable backpacking in any kind of sane way. Powermax fuel and white gas eh? you must be sponsored by coleman <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sure, there's a time and place for the big party adventures, and shared big cookgear and tents make a heck of a lot of sense then. I personally have a full complement of this kind of gear, and I almost never talk about it in this forum - it's my spike camp gear that goes moose hunting with me. But focusing on this as the only way to get out in the wilderness because of "philmont" striks me as a way to ensure that we leave kids with the impression that the only way they can get out later in life unless they are fortunate enough to always be in contact with 3-8 other like minded individuals with similar hiking skills, fitness levels, desire to go, and work schedules. Something I think is usually impossible to find for most people. Sounds to me like philmont is geared to teaching people heavyweight "everything is an expedition" skills that ensure they will never be able to do this after leaving scouts if they have anything like a real life. (As it sounds a lot like my scouting experience up here). So perhaps these are fightin' words, but to me the philmont rules sound like some of the things that express everything I didn't like about my scouting experience in the late 70's early 80's and that none of that has changed very much.

Sorry to sound cranky.. the philmont rules just hit a raw nerve of everything I think is wrong with scouts <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> perhaps I should just resign myself to the fact, and enjoy it because it ensures that the majority of the sheeple won't even walk my trails unless in groups of 6 as a military expedition, means I always have room and don't get overrun by the clueless..


Edited by phat (12/06/08 12:34 PM)

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#107459 - 12/06/08 12:41 PM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: Cesar]
BpackerDon Offline
member

Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 87
Loc: Northern Calif
Can this be an item that gets shared? Probably say 3-4 kids per tent? This way they can share the cost? If this is the case then the tent options have greatly improved. Either way I know Alps Mountaineering gives discounts to scouts. So if they split the cost of one of those tents then that would be a great savings.

Yes, tents can be shared. Typically two scouts per tent. Philmont WILL PROVIDE at NO extra cost two man tents for everyone on the trek. However, the Philmont tents are not light. They use the BSA Philmont backpacker tent, weight 5.6 lbs. If you want to purchase your own lightweight two man tents, and bring them to Philmont, that is allowed. It may be difficult to use 4 man tents at Philmont due to the large size of the tents. How the costs of such a purchase are shared is up to the troop and scouts involved.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If this is the case I am assuming each kid would not need to purchase and lug around a 2 gallon pot. So how does this work do we need to account for the cost but not the weight? On the stove can split the cost of this as well? I got a whisperlight on ebay for 40$ plus $12 for 33oz fuel bottle at a local store. Again can this cost be split between 7-12 scouts?

Philmont will also provide aluminum cooking pots at NO extra cost. The choices are:

Trail chef kit:
8 quart pot
4 quart pot with lid
fry pan with handle

OR
6 quart pot with lid
4 quart pot with lid
fry pan with handle

Philmont will also provide:

12x12 dining (rain) fly
2 poles for dining fly

cutlery kit:
2 large spoons
1 large spatula
hot pot tongs

Bear bags and ropes
Water purification pills
toilet paper

Stove: best to bring your own so you know how to use it. Typically 1 stove per 4-6 scouts, so you probably will want two stoves minimum. Philmont will RENT you a stove if needed. Cost splitting as per tents- up to the troop and scouts involved.

So 20 lbs and $200 will provide some bookeeping challenges depending on what Philmont gear you decide to use (heavy, no cost) and what you decide to bring- lighter, but will cost against your $200 budget in some shared cost depending on the number of scouts sharing the item.


One way to do this is to decide what group gear provided by the scouts will be shared, and then when you have that total weight and cost, divide by the number of scouts sharing the gear and allocate that amount to your 20 lb and $200 budgets. Then add the weight of the no cost items provided by Philmont, again divide by the number of scouts sharing these items, and add that to the weight budget (but not the $ budget)

Top
#107460 - 12/06/08 01:05 PM Re: $200 and 20lb challenge [Re: phat]
BpackerDon Offline
member

Registered: 10/05/07
Posts: 87
Loc: Northern Calif
I agree that taking a troop backpacking should be done in a lightweight manner, consistent with the skill level and safety of the scouts. This is a good way to instill a love of the outdoors in youth.

However, the OP said the destination was Philmont, and if he is really planning on taking scouts on a trek at Philmont, that location comes with a set of rules, which may not be known by most on this group, and which emphasizes safety and durability more than lightweight.

Therefore, all our help will be of use for general troop backpacking, but some of our favorite gear may not be appropriate for a Philmont trek.

It is possible to go lightweight to Philmont, but as the crew size is defined as 7-12 people, it is very different than a few people going backpacking by themselves.

Even with a bit more weight than I might carry in the Sierra, Philmont is still a beautiful place and a memorable adventure.

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