Do you feel enough people are not finding some of the lightweight gear acceptable, even though it is lighter? Are companies adding comfort back in and also increasing the weight as consumers are not finding this gear, (ultralilght, lightweight) uncomfortable? Did they bottom out and are having to make adjustments upward to get comfort back to an acceptable level? In my search for a new pack, I have run across a once light pack, that is being upgraded again and having the weight increased again. For example, I am seriously considering a Golite Pinnacle, which replaced the Gust that I had. The Gust weighed 20 oz. The newer Pinnalce weights 25 oz.. The 09 Pinnacle is going up in weight I have read. Other packs I have checked out in the capacity range I am used to, are no longer a little over a pound I have noticed. The competing packs I have looked at are around the Pinnacle's weight already or already at the weight it seems the Pinnacle is going to be in 09. For comparison, I have looked at ULA Conduit, Gossamer Gear Mariposa Plus and SMD Starlite . This is just an example I have run across, not meaning to get your views on my pack choice.

IMO it's the durability factor this driving this.

I have an ultralight pack that didn't really fail me
but it did tear in an area it should not have.
I wrote the manf., now the pack has been redesigned
adding maybe 1oz. I guess I was not the only
complainer.

No one really wants bomb proof but they don't want
tissue paper either. It seems to me that decent
capacity packs (70-80 lt.) are one or the other.

UL and durable aren't always compatible goals. There are limits to material engineering and manufacturing techniques. Without any specific inside information, I would suggest that manufacturers of ultra lightweight gear are finding that buyers are ignoring what should be the obvious relationship between weight and durability and expecting a UL pack to last as long as something made out of Cordura. Or, they find the packs being used in ways for which they aren't designed, such as stuffing too much gear into them or bushwacking with lightweight outerwear than tears easily.

When they get complaints or see repeated failures of materials or manufacturing techniques, they make changes and those probably add some weight. Maybe not much, but enough to overcome the problem.

Retaining brand loyalty is important to small manufacturers as well a big ones, so adding durability is a choice that some have apparently determined is more important that saving a couple of ounces.

I have definately seen this in many places. Golite was one of the first that comes to mind as you've seen. Some of this may be in response to warantte returns or complaints etc, as ultralight gear often is not as durable, because it simply can't be.

On the other hand I have seen other things get heavyweightized on redo for no good reason - My favorite current example is the MEC northern lite pullover - the old one was a fabulous light primaloft jacket/sweater - cheap as borscht and plenty durable. They "made it better" by redoing it with a heavy water repellent shell (for people who can't spray some nikwax or wear a shell over it) and adding a hood, almost doubling the weight of the thing. The new one sucks, and it distresses
me because I like my current one a lot and don't want to have to resort to a patagucci down sweater when it finally wears out.

The other big factor here is what I call "feature creep". This is the tendency of most manufacturers to add new features to an existing design in order to update it. since "features" almost always add weight, you get a heavier item.

I agree with you guys. Sorry about the incorrect grammar in my post, I was at lunch and about to run out of time, but you understood what I really meant. I agree very much with feature creep. Also, people are looking maybe for what's new this year. Funny, someone comes up with a "feature" and they have to give it a name. Golite has the compactor (sic) system, which is just straps to compress the pack. Fly by wire on Honda cars and motorcycles. For me, makes for more indecision on whose gear is better or will work better in actual conditions. With the economy, more time to think.

I have heard that two of the cottage industry companies had gear failures last Spring at the start of the PCT season. One guy was busy at AKPCTWXYZ , sewing straps back on packs. I agree, folks use gear far beyond what they were intended to do. Me, my Golite Gust was meant to haul 30 lbs. I have had an estimated 37 lbs. in it and when not that much weight, stuffed with puffy gear. Where I was going with packs for instance, ULA seems to be at a comfort level already I guess and Golite, for one, is increasing the weight of their packs, since ULA gets high marks with their packs already, but I was hoping for something lighter. Reading reviews, they all have their supporters and detractors.

"Feature creep." Love it and totally true. Just like what happens to computer software, military hardware and military missions.

Examples-I don't want a tent that looks like an art school project, I just want something that will keep me dry if it rains or snows. I don't want a stove that looks like a replica of the moon lander or a pack with so many pockets, zippers and straps that you need a 20 page book to show you how it's supposed to work.

The more "features" a product has, the more likely one or more of them will not work right or will break. I used to use scuba gear with some obvious design defects that made me wonder if the designers had ever tried using the stuff. What looks good on paper, isn't necessarily going to work in real life.

As Yogi Berra once said, "In theory, theory and practice are the same thing; in practice, they aren't."

I think that it is cyclical and the common denominator is NEW. Nothing sells like NEW, so adding features or stripping weight can accomplish the same thing, another NEW product. Talk to a salesman and you will find that most novices will equate NEW with BETTER.
Once you have carried a pack with a zillion straps and bits flying around, the next time you may look for something simpler but maybe with some added features that you find useful. For example the ULA packs have a lot less dangly bits, but I love those hip belt pockets...
Still, most brands now have a range of products , so you can pick and choose what you like. You may have to change model so your Osprey Aether 60 could be replaced by the simpler/lighter Exos.
Franco
Yes, in practice there is more difference between theory and practice than in theory....

I thought "feature creep" was the guy who decided all MSR "fast and light" rainflies and Thermarest pads should be bright orange! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

One of the things I've noticed, being a manufacture rep, is the difficult task of updating gear that seems to have reached it's 'improvement' limit. As you and I know, there is still much that can be done with most of the gear we use. I personally don't know of a 'perfect' piece of gear I own. There is still much that can be improved upon...

One thing that I have been impressed with as I've worked for Cascade Designs, is there dedication to making things lighter, but yet not compromising on strength. Two very recent examples (that aren't available yet mind you) are the Carbon Reflex 2 Tent and the NeoAir Pad. Both of these products represent a new trend that I think we will start seeing in the near future from us and other manufacturers (if the economy doesn't fall out from underneath us and we still have money to create new technologies). That trend is 'uncompromising' lightweight gear. That is gear that the user doesn't have to compromise on in terms of durability (if it's being used properly and taken care of), comfort, ease of set up, made environmentally conscious, providing a lifetime warranty on the item, packable, etc., etc.

The Carbon Reflex 2 Tent is weighing in at 2lbs., 13oz (minimum weight: fly, poles, and canopy). However, it has a 10,000mm coated floor (this means a one inch wide cylindrical tube filled with 10,000mm (32.8ft) of water resting on the material without the floor leaking, the same as our mountaineering tents); 20D, 330T fly with reinforced patches over the tie down points; re-designed UV resistant Easton Carbon Poles (field maintainable); and 20D no-see-um mesh. This tent will last as long as any MSR tent as long as it is maintained (ie. cleaned, zippers cleaned and waxed, kept out of excess sunlight for long periods of time, poles and tent packed properly, etc.). It has the same square footage as our Hubba Hubba tent (looks almost identical, but not freestanding), arguably one of the roomiest, lightest tents available.

The NeoAir pad is another example of uncompromising lightweight gear. I've spent roughly 2 1/2 weeks sleeping on this pad and have been extremely impressed. It is the most comfortable backpacking mattress I've ever used due to its horizontal baffles and 2.5 in thickness. It does require that I blow it up, but I can consistently do so with about 12-15 breaths. It is as puncture resistant as any Thermarest mattress and there is a new repair kit (Fast and Light Repair Kit) coming out in 2009 which will only require the user to pill of the patch and stick it over the hole, rubbing it for a few seconds which will give it a permanent repair (the patches are clear and proprietary to Cascade Designs). The pad packs up smaller than a 1L Nalgene bottle and weighs in at 14oz for the regular size. There will actually be four sizes available: Short (20" X 45", 9oz.), Medium (20" X 66", 13oz.), Regular (20 X 72", 14oz), and Large (25" X 78", 16oz). Oh yeah, did I mention that it has an R-Value of 2.5, better than the Prolite 3 pad WITHOUT using insulation. It took Cascade Designs 5 years to develop it.

You can expect other products to come from Cascade Designs with this same mantra. This is the challenge for every company. The only disadvantage is that both of these amazing innovations are not cheap. You should expect to pay about $500 for the tent and $150 for the pad. This is the sacrifice that must be made for this type of gear. As other manufacturers develop truly innovative, 'uncompromising' ultra-light gear, it won't be cheap either. You should also know that both of these items have with them a lifetime warranty, just like on all of our tents and pads. Therefore they should be looked at as an investment IMO. I can tell you there is much to be excited about coming from Cascade Designs...

I agree that some (too much) feature creep is market driven and mostly unnecessary. However, we consumers have to step up and bear part of the blame. When I read user reviews here and on other websites, I often see (or write) the phrase, "This would be the perfect whatsis if it only had..." Unfortunately, we are blessed with manufacturers who actually listen to their market. As a result, we end up with an ounce here and two ounces there as Henry Shires adds a zipper to the Rainbow vestibule, or Granite Gear adds an inside hydration sleeve to the Vapor Trail, or someone adds a functional windscreen to a canister stove and calls it Jetboil.

Guilty, your Honor.
Franco