Feathered Friends 300x250
Superior Down Sleeping Bags & Clothing

Ultralight Adventure Equipment (ULA)    

   
 
 
Lite Gear Talk

Backcountry Gear Clearance and Sale

Amazon.com
Backpacking Forums
BackcountryGear.com
backcountry gear

---- Our Gear Store ----
The Lightweight Gear Store
 
 ULTRA-LIGHT 

Ultralight Backpacks
Ultralight Bivy Sacks
Ultralight Shelters
Ultralight Tarps
Ultralight Tents
Ultralight Raingear
Ultralight Stoves & Cookware
Ultralight Down Sleeping Bags
Ultralight Synthetic Sleep Bags
Ultralight Apparel


the Titanium Page
WM Extremelite Sleeping Bags

 CAMPING & HIKING 

Backpacks
Tents
Sleeping Bags
Hydration
Kitchen
Accessories

 CLIMBING 

Ropes & Cordage
Protection & Hardware
Carabiners & Quickdraws
Climbing Packs & Bags
Big Wall
Rescue & Industrial

 MEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 WOMEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 FOOTWEAR 

Men's Footwear
Women's Footwear

 CLEARANCE 

Backpacks
Mens Apparel
Womens Apparel
Climbing
Footwear
Accessories

 BRANDS 

Black Diamond
Granite Gear
La Sportiva
Osprey
Smartwool

 WAYS TO SHOP 

Sale
Clearance
Top Brands
All Brands

 Backpacking Equipment 

Shelters
BackPacks
Sleeping Bags
Water Treatment
Kitchen
Hydration
Climbing


 Backcountry Gear Clearance


 WINTER CAMPING 

Shelters
Bivy Bags
Sleeping Bags
Sleeping Pads
Snow Sports
Winter Kitchen

 SNOWSPORTS 

Snowshoes
Avalanche Gear
Skins
Hats, Gloves, & Gaiters
Accessories

Stay Healthy--Eat Well

MARY JANES FARM ORGANIC MEALS

Mary Janes Farm Organic Backcountry Meals

NATURAL HIGH GOURMET MEALS

Natural High

 

Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#107049 - 11/26/08 01:00 PM Ultralight winter clothing dilemma....
outspoken Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 12
Loc: East Tennessee
I have been whittling down my base weight all summer and now have been confronted with the harsh reality that it is getting cold here in TN Smokies. I have been very zealous in my quest to lighten up but in doing so have neglected the upcoming winter weather.

My setup for cool/cold weather is silkweight long underwear top, light weight microfleece top, Frogg Togg rainjacket for my upper and for my lower its silkweight long underwear bottom, nylon hiking pants, and frogg togg bottoms. I am starting to realize that this may not suffice as proper apparel for diddling around camp. I have typically gone straight to the sleeping bag if I get cold, but would rather get a recommendation on lightweight midlayer sweaters or some other systems others use to stay warmer so I don't end every winter night at sundown.

Sean

Top
#107050 - 11/26/08 01:42 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: outspoken]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
I use:

Expedition weight top and bottoms,

TYVEK pants,

MontBell Down inner sweater,

Brawny silnylon pullover.

I have worn DryDucks in snow. It seems like the cold makes them brittle and prone to tearing.
_________________________
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."
Yogi Berra

Top
#107051 - 11/26/08 02:47 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: ringtail]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
How does the TYVEK perform in snow? I know it would make good snow camouflage.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

Top
#107052 - 11/26/08 06:29 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: finallyME]
kbennett Offline
member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 820
Loc: north carolina
You are right, you don't have enough clothing to be comfortable around camp, or stopping for lunch, or walking out in really severe weather. Also, if you are wearing all that, you will likely get wet from exertion, and it sounds like you don't have any dry clothing to change into when you stop hiking.

I'm a firm believer in lightweight hiking, but not at the expense of killing myself <grin>. So for winter hiking, I take layers that can be used together or separately, in various combinations depending on the weather. In addition, I carry separate layers for camp and sleeping.

I like a four-layer system: base layer, light windshirt, insulation layer, hard shell layer. For a winter hike, that would be a light wool long sleeve shirt, a Marmot Driclime wind shirt, a down jacket, and a waterproof/breathable shell jacket. Under normal conditions, I hike in the base layer and the wind shirt. If it's sunny and warm-ish, just the base layer. Raining or snowing, or just really cold and windy, add the hard shell. (This is *very* similar to your system, so far.) The down jacket is for breaks and camp, not for hiking, of course. This is the crucial piece for a winter hike, IMO. A good down jacket (and a good hat) means I can sit around and enjoy dinner, write in my journal, and otherwise hang out in camp, and be pretty comfortable down into the teens. I find this more suitable, for me, than climbing in my sleeping bag as soon as I stop hiking. The down jacket serves double duty, adding much warmth to my sleeping bag when draped over my torso inside the bag. Thus I can get away with a slightly lighter bag.

In my pack I carry Powerstretch fleece tights and a microfleece zip tee. These have several duties: first, they are dry and warm when I change out of my wet hiking clothes. Second, they add quite a bit of warmth to my sleep system. Finally, in very bad weather conditions, I can use them as warmer clothes to wear for the hike out. (But that negates their primary purpose, so this needs to be seen as an emergency only option.)

Sure, this is hardly "ultralight." And it's way more than I carry in warmer weather. But the weather in the Southern US mountains is somewhat unpredictable and localized, and I'd prefer to come home with all my parts attached.

EDIT: you asked for recommendations, so here are a couple: 1) A mid-weight insulated jacket like the Montbell Alpine Light Parka (with hood) or the Patagonia Micro Puff Hooded Parka. This amount of insulation will keep me warm down to 20 or so. 2) carry some dry clothing.


Edited by kbennett (11/26/08 06:34 PM)
_________________________
--Ken B

Top
#107053 - 11/26/08 08:15 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: outspoken]
outspoken Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 12
Loc: East Tennessee
Thanks for the advice. Got a trip planned this weekend and have opted to take my HEAVY military goretex jacket and some heavy duty military long undies for camp. I guess I can tote 3 more pounds for comfort sake, until I can afford to upgrade.

Sean

Top
#107054 - 11/26/08 08:26 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: outspoken]
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
Yeah layers. My girlfriend keeps buying me mostly mid-weight fleece garments at thrift stores.....and I take several, depending on climate in addition to a very light "soft-shell" and/or a rain parka.

If it's much below freezing I usually take fleece pants also, in addition to mid-or light-weight long underpants.

I always take a light-weight wind-shirt. The one I have cost about ninety dollars.

Top
#107055 - 11/27/08 05:14 AM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: outspoken]
photohiker Offline
member

Registered: 04/20/02
Posts: 147
Loc: NC Pa.
Last week on a overnite hike the morning temp was 6 degrees, about 10 colder than forecast. I wore synthetic T-shirt under Marmot Dri-clime windshirt, a thick but waistlength fleece for insulation. Unlined parka over all. Was quite comfy even when taking down the tent. Fleece liners inside mitten shells are the best for me w/thin glove liners for manipulating camera & fastex buckles.

Top
#107056 - 11/27/08 06:15 AM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: outspoken]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:
Thanks for the advice. Got a trip planned this weekend and have opted to take my HEAVY military goretex jacket and some heavy duty military long undies for camp. I guess I can tote 3 more pounds for comfort sake, until I can afford to upgrade.

Sean
I find the 20F-35F range most difficult to figure out, even though that's what we get the most of. If you prepare for wet weather, you get hit with wind and extreme cold. If you prepare for extreme cold, you get hit with wind and rain. So you gotta prepare for both, then you get warm sunny weather and no wind. lol

I suggest bringing a thermometer so you can be objective about what you actually encounter, and wear the clothes you actually want to test, and keep some emergency clothes stashed deep in you pack just in case. Long underwear are good emergency clothes because they usually fit well in between the skin layer and mid layer that your testing. The goretex jacket sounds like great insurance also. I would be happy to stick with that until I found something lighter that was exactly what I want. Currently I use a 4oz cheap nylon wind shell as a wind layer and a cheap sylnylon poncho/tarp as my rain layer / shelter. I have a HEAVY military gortex bivy sac that I've been thinking of converting into a rain cape / bivy, then maybe get a different tarp.

Have a great weekend.

Top
#107057 - 11/27/08 08:17 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: outspoken]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

My "summer in the mountains" - which may end up being much like
your winter (I want to be ok down to about -5C in the summertime) is a -3C rated sleeping bag, along with the following - some or more of which I usually sleep in:

1) Fleece Toque
2) 2 merino wool long sleeve T-shirts
3) 1 midweight poly long john bottom
4) a lightweight primaloft pullover jacket (MEC northern lite - no longer made) You could also use something lighter like a patagucci down sweater, or heavier like a fleece.
5) dry warm wool socks.

I also have a poncho like your frogg toggs and a windshirt outerlayer, and I have
pants to wear around camp.

I typically sleep in from just a long john and shirt, up to all of the above, depending on how chilly I expect it to be. I almost always wear the toque at night. I rarely wear the jacket
in bed unless It gets really ugly, or I get sick or something so I'm chilly, although it's
always in bed with me to put on in the morning.

"winter" to me here is a much more serious thing, usually involving the above with the
addition of a full fleece layer, and much more substantial sleeping bag(s)
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


Top
#107058 - 11/28/08 05:16 AM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: phat]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Margaret and I hiked out to Big Salmon River on Monday. Sunny day, -5C, about 2-3" of snow on the trail. We both opted for our sneakers and wool socks. I managed to keep her feet dry and mine wet. I don't mind wringing out wool socks now and then, but I wish the trail runners themselves wouldn't absorb so much water. I think the only real way to compare footwear is when fully saturated and drip dried for 60 seconds. Next time I go shopping for shoes, or fleece, I'm taking a bucket of water and a stopwatch.

Thinking about ripping all the padding out of my old trail runners, maybe even ripping the uppers right off and rebuilding.

Top
#107059 - 11/28/08 07:22 AM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: finallyME]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
finally ME,

I use the TYVEK only for shoulder season here in Colorado. In snow my camp outfit is insulated bibs and anld GoLite 6 month night parka.

I was trying to answer for TN. I have use the outfit I described down to 15 and was comfortable.

I gues the short answer is - I do not know.
_________________________
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."
Yogi Berra

Top
#107060 - 11/28/08 06:06 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: ringtail]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
So then, getting away from the original topic, how does the TYVEK do in Colorado. If I remember correctly, you have about the same humidity as Utah, and you are roughly at the same altitudes, so your experience would be worthwhile to me. I think I might just try it for myself sometime.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

Top
#107061 - 11/29/08 08:18 AM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: finallyME]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
finallyME,

I bought a box of 20 TYVEK pants for less than $3 each. Weight 2.2 oz. I wear them around camp over my longjohns.

I would buy another batch when I use these up, but I have only used a couple in several years.
_________________________
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."
Yogi Berra

Top
#107062 - 11/29/08 11:02 AM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: ringtail]
gearup5000 Offline
member

Registered: 11/10/02
Posts: 123
For flexibility and a range of temps, I really like silkweight bottoms AND some powerstretch-type tights.
Together, they seem to hold a lot of heat in. Silkweights can be slept in, and the finish on the tights cuts wind if you are wearing them with shorts, or prevents over chilling when venting shell pants.

Wool is great, especially when you are stationary.

Top
#107063 - 11/29/08 01:09 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: outspoken]
outspoken Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 12
Loc: East Tennessee
My original system of clothing ended up being very sufficient yesterday while in camp as the temps did not dip below the higher 20's throughout the night and there was an awesome fire courtesy of some of the other shelter dwellers. I wore nylon hiking pants, lightweight long underwear top, and a poly shortsleeve shirt, wool socks while hiking and changed into lightweight capilene top and bottom, midweight microfleece, heavy wool socks, and fleece beanie cap and was very comfy even away from the fire. My wife has offered to buy me some down pants and jacket for Christmas....I guess now I'm set.

Also this was my first cool weather trip with my WM Alpinlite and I must say it kept me TOASTY warm, woke up at midnight alittle sweaty but I have never been so comfy in a bag. Down is the way to go.

Sean

Top
#107064 - 11/29/08 01:34 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: outspoken]
rootball Offline
member

Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 112
I am in the same general area of the world. I watch the different weather channels and deduct for elevation. I do not use the Frogg Toggs in winter. I use a little more substantial rain suit - Patagonia Rain Shadow jacket, Marmot Precip pant. I got some of the nylon layers that Walmart started carrying - I think the fabric is called Revert??Revent?? drimore??Athletic works, maybe?? Anyways, it works fantastically. There are four different thickness and I have one of each - they go in rotation depending on expected temps. The best peice is a Patagonia micro puff vest. I retired two down vests and ended up with this - and would never go back. I have a North Face down jacket that also comes into play if its gonna be unforgivingly cold.
Walmart did sell a two layer - wool/polypro top and bottom, but they quit carrying it. I have two sets left. These are super versatile. They are available at Gander for two or three times what I paid a few years back.
In camp I always have my camp clothes that I do not hike in, unless I have to. They stay dry. Fire is always a plus. If I am going to have fire, I leave my hiking clothes on until the after camp is set then I dry them by the fire before changing into camp clothes.
I used to jump in the sleeping bag too soon because I got cold. But once you get in the bag it is hard to get back out - so I stay active in camp. I might build a fire, or throw on the headlamp and go for a little hike up the trail. I prep my lunch and whatever for the next day. Basically I keep moving until I'm ready to read and sleep.
I used to go with hiking partners and we would stay up by the fire and talk until late, but mostly I hike alone these days and unless I stay busy I get bored and end up in the bag too early.
Another thing I do is plan my camps accordingly. If I am going to Mount Sterling, where the wind always blows, I know I will have a heavy pack full of warm clothes and a tent. But if I want to carry a lighter pack I stay low.
And one thing for sure is that the first day out is always the coldest - it takes me a day to adjust to being away from a heated house/office/car.

Top
#107065 - 11/29/08 08:21 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: outspoken]
just_another_Joe Offline
member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 117
I've been using the liners from military field jackets and field pants as LW midlayers, at least lighter, as warm, and more compressable than 200 wt. fleece. They are not fashionable. With fleece, add in the weight of whatever you use to make it windproof.

Top
#107066 - 11/30/08 12:53 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: outspoken]
chuck Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 83
Last night hiking in the dark and this morning in central VA, it was high 30's to lows 40's and rained the whole time. I started my night hike with summer weight wicking shortsleeve shirt, 200 weigh fleece and Montane windshirt. I quickly got overheated, took off 200 weight fleece and put on rain jacket. I was very comfy. On legs I had REI insulated overpants and was very comfotyable. These are bombproof, not lightweight but solid in hard cold rains.

In AM walking out again high 30's mod - hard cold rain, I wore on upper body above hiking shirt, 200 weight fleece and Precip rain jacket. After 1/2 mile got too hot so took off fleece and felt comfy hiking out. Now my legs did get hot because I mistakenly left on mid-weigh wickers longjohns, hiking pants and Golite Reed rain pants.

I left longjohns on because I didn't feel like taking them off once I noticed I left them on and I was only going to car, but if I was staying another night I would have taken them off to prevent them from getting wet with sweat even though they are wicking, plus they were getting me a little cold.

Chuck

Top
#107067 - 11/30/08 03:31 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: outspoken]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Outspoken

You've gotten a lot of great advice. I just don't think the evening/day travel/stationary clothes thing has been stressed, or maybe most feel differently than I, but I find that with my winter activity - ski, then camp, I wear maybe just mid weight long underwear top and bottom, with a 200 fleece jacket with pit zips and high topped gaiters. I also have shells - top and bottom that can go over any of my clothes, so I can put them on skiing if need be and the pants are full zip so no need to remove boots to put them on. Convenience is definitely worth paying a weight penalty for. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Once camp is set up, I put on down bibs or down pants and my shell bottoms to protect them. I then have an ancient 25 oz hooded down jacket from the REI attic in Berkeley that I paid $60 for, which goes over the fleece jacket and can be covered up by a very large parka shell. I have found that the huge long bombproof parkas actually do keep you much warmer. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I don't consider 57 oz for down coat and pants to be excessive, they would be pretty warm sitting around down to maybe 20 degrees.

Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

Top
#107068 - 11/30/08 04:24 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: Jimshaw]
chuck Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 83
Regarding camp, I wore my hiking shirt, 200 weight flece and Golite Coal. For legs I used hiking pants with REI overpants. Morning I had mid-weight Wickers on. This can take me well below freezing.

I am getting a WM Flight Jacket to replace Coal and 200 weight fleece. Savings should be 19.5 oz, plus give me a lot more room in pack <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Chuck

Top
#107069 - 12/01/08 06:21 AM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: chuck]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
I like the idea of maybe using a down layers to replace my windlayers and 200wt fleece layers for extreme cold / low activity. If I did that I would use wool as my skin layer and middle layer, and I would still have a rain layer of course. I think I'm inclined to agree with Jim though, to go big or stay home. Meaning once you invest in the two lightweight shell layers to hold the down, you might as well add that extra down to make it a full 2", or at least 1.5". I'm still not sure about down pants though. I would prefer a knee length parka, but with a really light shell like the flight jackets and stuff. I don't think anyone makes them like that. Some women's coats from china come very close, but they don't have my size. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Also I haven't found a good wool mid layer for pants yet, so I'll be sticking with 200wt fleece there until I do. The 200wt fleece pants are good in snow, and my legs don't sweat as much so I can overdress my legs at times and get away with it. Also I can pull the elastic cuffs up above the knee and blouse them back down. Exposing near knee length sock to the air now and then helps dry them out I think.

Top
#107070 - 12/04/08 09:56 AM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: outspoken]
hikerFedEx Offline


Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 19
Loc: United States
I no longer carry any fleece hiking. Love it at home, around town, and for that outdoors look. (I actually prefer windblock. I find it much warmer cuz it cuts the wind. Can add insulating layers as needed. By contrast my 100,200,300 fleece does not cut the wind (unless I wear a shell over it) so I'm often cold with even a slight breeze)

For layering while moving I use poly or smartwool of lighter or med weight. Otherwise, replaced my fleece tops, coats, layering with 3oz Montrail pullover 1/2 zip windshirt. traps loads of heat, and still breathes well. I repeat 3 OZ! Especially warm if I add a less breathable wind/rain shell over it. Add my cocoon style insulated pullover 1/2 zip top and bottoms for real insulation once I stop moving and to add warmth when sleeping. Probably among my best UL conversions from traditional outdoors/backpacking/camping.

My Cocoon style pullover 1/2 Zip Patagonia Micropuff synthetic insulated top is "heavy" & weighs ~12oz, my bottoms with full side zip weigh 14oz. Both are wind and water resistant & weigh FAR less than any fleece I've owned, but are also MUCH warmer - like wearing a down coat or pants. They are not as durable so I'm cautious if doing any camp work, etc. Cocoon versions at Backpackinglight.com weigh ~6-8oz ea. for pullover top & bottom depending on sizing. Not cheap but I swear by SUL synthetic insulating top/bottoms.

Highly recommended. Similarly my BPL Vapor Barrier Insulated Mitts weigh <4oz and glove liners <2 oz and are far quicker drying, water/wind resistant (& lighter) than any fleece gloves I've owned.

Same for beanie style hats.

Top
#107071 - 12/04/08 11:59 AM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: hikerFedEx]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
The whole idea of fleece and wool is to have to wear a windbreaker over it when you need to. They allows you to take the windbreaker off when you get moving again, and dry out the wool and fleece. You only need one wind layer, and you don't need to wear it all the time. Keeping a 4oz windjacket in your pack allows you to keep your thick insulation layers on while hiking, which saves you pack volume, and allows you to dry the insulation layers out while hiking. Your total clothing system will be alot lighter this way also, because you will be getting more loft per ounce.

Top
#107072 - 12/05/08 10:31 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: outspoken]
Paul Offline
member

Registered: 09/30/02
Posts: 778
Loc: California
This is my outfit for spring snowcamping in the Sierra - nighttime temps usually in the mid-20's, occasionally the teens:
daytime - Terramar silkweight EC2 qwik-dri top and bottoms (when it's bright sun it can be very warm, so then I ski in just these), shorts (for the pockets mostly), shell pants I made from EPIC fabric. Depending on conditions, if it's cold and/or very windy, I might add an expedtion weight zip-t or my Marmaot Precip jacket. Since I'm skiing with a pack, I generate a lot of heat, so I've never gotten to the point where I'd wear the zip-t and the shell together while moving.
For camp and lunchtime, a homemade Polarguard hooded anorak. I guess similar to a Puffball jacket, but weighs less. For camp only, polargurad pants - never wear them during the day.
Lightweigh wicking balaclava, sun hat, double-layer fleece hat.
Powerstretch liner gloves, Orlon mittens my freind's mom knitted for me in 1972, and mitten shells.

Top
#107073 - 12/13/08 06:27 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: outspoken]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
Lightweight clothing and winter don't mix well.

But here are my suggestions:

1. PacLite GTX shells are as light as you can get and have great wind protection (unless, of course you can afford eVent gear) Nylon windbreaker outfits are fine as long as the weather is not wet.

2. synthetic long johns are generally lighter FOR THE WARMTH than any wool undies

3. TWO layers of thin poly sock liners are better under a medium insulating sock than using one heavy sock

4. fleece neck gaiters are worth every ounce and nice for sleeping.

5. pile insulation dries fast but it's heavy for the warmth. Synthetic quilted or edge stabilized insulation like Thinsulate, Climashield, Primaloft or, my favorite, Thermolite, are much warmer for the weight and pack smaller.

6. Good luck finding warm but light winter boots. I doubt they exist.
For overnight camping you need a VBL to keep the insulation dry or you WILL have dangerously cold feet after the 1st day. Thin neoprene dive socks are very good. over poly liners. Then you can forget insulating socks as the neoprene is very warm inside insulated boots like felt pacs. But don't forget to turn the VBL neoprene sox inside out at night to dry. & take a fresh pair of poly liner sox for EACH day. Told ya, winter means "lightweight" takes a back seat.

And don't forget to take your insulating liners in your sleeping bag at night. You'll bless yourself in the frigid morning when you put on warm liners.

Eric


Edited by 300winmag (12/13/08 06:34 PM)
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

Top
#107074 - 12/14/08 04:13 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: 300winmag]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6372
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
I pretty much use the same clothing for hiking in winter as in summer, but I add at least one more layer of insulation, sometimes two. I'd rather have 2 or 3 thin insulation layers than one thick one so I can fine-tune my body's moisture production. That's a fancy way of saying that I want to avoid sweating when I'm moving. In winter, sweat tends to get cold or even freeze quite quickly, so it's better to avoid sweating. If it can't be avoided, at least the fewer layers that get damp, the better On the other hand, layers have to go back on in a hurry when I stop! I call this peeling off and adding back of multiple layers the "onion method." No, I didn't invent either the method or the analogy to the odoriferous vegetable!

I also have to say that most of my summer hiking is in high altitudes in the Cascades and Rockies, where it can end up snowing even in midsummer. My "summer" clothing is therefore a bit more substantial than yours.


Edited by OregonMouse (12/14/08 04:15 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

Top
#107075 - 12/15/08 01:04 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: outspoken]
shaman123 Offline


Registered: 12/15/08
Posts: 1
btw, golite makes some great lightweight products IMHO. I just bought some for my family this weekend as they are having a 30% off sale - I got an email with code: 08HOLIDAY that worked for me.

Thomas

Top
#107076 - 12/15/08 06:23 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: shaman123]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
I've been looking at their "Storm Dragon" trail runner with built in gaiters.
Neat idea. I usually like to try stuff on though.
http://www.golite-footwear.com/

Top
#107077 - 12/16/08 08:32 AM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: JAK]
JoeF Offline
member

Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 19
Maybe see if gear trade has any used? Most of the clothing is items returned to stores and I remember seeing some but don't remember the sizes.

http://www.geartrade.com/
_________________________
outdoorsewing on yahoo: [url]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/outdoorsewing/ [/url

Top
#107078 - 12/16/08 12:05 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: JoeF]
OldScout Offline
member

Registered: 03/17/03
Posts: 501
Loc: Puget Sound, Washington
don't mean to hijack this thread but........ Hey Joe, how does grear trade work? It says that there is a 10% commission. Is that added on to the sale price so that the buyer ends up paying for it or does the seller pay for it out of the sale price?? What is your experience with them? How do you handle disputes if the goods are damaged or not as respresented?

Top
#107079 - 12/16/08 03:02 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: OregonMouse]
OttoStover Offline
member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 62
Loc: Norway
I agree with OregonMouse, the easiest is to have the same clothes both summer and winter. In summer here in Norway it may too get cold, so one must be prepared for that also.

Before I found Brynje useful I always used thin wool close to my body, and softshell or hardshell on top according to the actual weather. Now in winter I just use Brynje Super Thermo under and softshell over that.

In summer its just the Brynje if it is not a lot of mosquitos, it is amazingly warm and airy. In winter the Brynje is good because it has good wicking properties and when you stop there is a layer of air next to your body so you do not feel wet. For me this is essential, 'cause I sweat a lot.

On my last winter trip that I've posted pictures from, this is all I had for four of the five days.(brynje + softshell) Winds were moderate 5m/s and temp around 0C. The last day had such hard winds that it was hard to walk against it. Aprox. 15m/s (33 miles/h) and about -10C. Then I had an extra thin layer of wool and a hardshell instead of a softshell jacket.

Brynje is also wery light, thoug I have'nt put it on a scale. I like the product so much that I use it for everyday use also. So far (two years use) only one sleeve has a damage where the watch has stuck to it. Those who want light and warm underclothes should try it, at least those that sweat like me. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Top
#107080 - 12/16/08 05:22 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: OttoStover]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Otto

I've used the net underwear. I hated it. I thought it was un-comfortable and it left funny marks all over. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> But to each his or her own. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The stuff is probably easy to launder and doesn't hold odors.

You do bring up a point though about those of us who live day in and day out in conditions that most people consider to be "winter camping". Obviously we wear non-camping clothing that is warm and tough and maybe more normal looking and heavier than camping gear. I wear a lot of cotton in the winter - either I'm out in cold so it doesn't get wet, or I come inside and the relative humidity is 10% and everything melts and dries out in fifteen minutes. A stroll in the streets on Duluth during the winter may be colder than a winter camping trip most places.

LLBean abd Eddie Bower provide a lot of this clothing. Then of course theres the hunting clothes, like heavy duty camping gear. I may buy a pair of redwing hunting boots as my next footwear.

However I digress. The lightest winter garments are thin nylon with down between them. (.) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

Top
#108315 - 12/26/08 04:10 AM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: outspoken]
MrZeroPing Offline
member

Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 17
Loc: Ibaraki Ken, Japan
I too am in need of some help with this particular situation. I was trying on an Arcteryx Alpha SV and I was telling the shop keeper that I'm interested in doing winter mountaineering. I was with my girlfriend at the time and she said to me "I didn't know that. Take me with you." Her birthday is in January so I thought I could order her an Alpha SV jacket too. But I got to thinking. For the price of 1 jacket I could probably load her up with an entire set up. So after a couple days of reading the forums from here and other sites I think I've narrowed down what I want to get her. But I'm not sure if it is appropriate for the activities that we will be doing. So I'm asking for some suggestions.

What we plan on doing is probably some day hiking in the mountains in winter (and other seasons). Nothing major. No snow. Day trips. Would only be going out if the weather was nice. Then possibly doing some snow shoeing once we get more experience. Eventually we would like to go winter camping.

From what I've read it seems most people go with 4 layers. Is this going to be appropriate for what my girlfriend and I are aiming for?
Core
Base Layer - Patagonia Cap 2
Insulating Layer - Patagonia R2
Wind Layer - Marmot Driclime Windshirt
Softshell - Marmot Precip Jacket

Legs
Base - Patagonia Cap 2
Insultating Layer - This is what I'm most having problems with. A lot of what I read was discussing core layering and not really leg layering. Perhaps some fleece pants? Any suggestions? Brands?
Softshell - Marmot Precip Pants

One thing the store keeper was saying was that down isn't really good to wear when you are active. "When you are active you want to be wearing something like fleece. When you stop, you put on your down." I've also read that a couple times in other forums. Any thoughts on this? Be they anecdotal or otherwise?

Also another concern I have is if the capilene 2 is going to be enough? I was thinking if I get her cap 2 we could also use it for the other seasons. But is it going to be warm enough?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions and help.


Edited by MrZeroPing (12/26/08 04:14 AM)

Top
#108331 - 12/26/08 04:43 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: MrZeroPing]
kbennett Offline
member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 820
Loc: north carolina
The 4-layer system is good. I like my DriClime jacket over my base layer, but my lovely wife wears a Marmot Sharp Point soft shell jacket over a base layer or a microfleece zip tee in the same weather. She also really likes her Ibex soft shell pants for hiking in any weather below about 50F. Below freezing she puts on a set of lightweight wool long john bottoms underneath.

If the weather turns ugly, you'll be glad you have a rain shell and rain pants with you. The Precip is fine.

Your dealer is right -- no down clothing while hiking. Not unless you are climbing Everest or similar. That said, having a down or synthetic puffy jacket to put on when you stop for lunch is really nice -- it'll be much warmer than the fleece layer.

I'm generally warmer than my wife, so my winter layers are: (torso): wool long john top, Driclime jacket, down jacket (on breaks only), rain shell; (legs): wool long john bottoms, hiking shorts, rain shell pants, with fleece leggings to put on in camp under my rain shell pants.

Does that help?
_________________________
--Ken B

Top
#108338 - 12/26/08 06:19 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: kbennett]
MrZeroPing Offline
member

Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 17
Loc: Ibaraki Ken, Japan
That does help. But I just realized something. Most people are only ever wearing their baselayer and some other layer at the same time.

Do you or anyone else wear all your layers at once? If so how should sizing be done? For example, say I'm wearing my base layer and my windshirt. I'm hiking and hiking but I'm just not getting warm. At this point would I take the windshirt off and put something on to replace the jacket? Or would I say put on a fleece jacket underneath the windshirt?

I realize this sounds trivial but how does this apply to sizing? Do I want to buy a fleece jacket (like the R2) that fits perfectly and then buy a larger windshirt so that the windshirt can go over the fleece? Or do I purchase both windshirt and fleece so they fit perfectly?

Top
#108340 - 12/26/08 07:44 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: MrZeroPing]
chuck Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 83
MrZeroPing, when layering you do need to think about sizes. If you layer over down you need to make sure you do not compress the down or it will lose insulative properties, to avoid this you might need larger outer garmet if it will be worn over down. Same if wearing down jacket in sleeping bag, you need to make sure bag doesn't compress jacket.

In cold windy weather I love my Montaine 3 oz windshirt over a 100 or 200 weight fleece jacket. I did not size up on windshirt when I bought it but if I had to do again I would get 1 size bigger. Montaine's windshirt runs tight and when I pull over my head it is very tight fit getting arms through.
The windshirt can be sized up because it only protects wind and not add real warmth. This will allow it to be worn over bulky insulative layers.

Chuck

Top
#108347 - 12/26/08 11:49 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: chuck]
MrZeroPing Offline
member

Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 17
Loc: Ibaraki Ken, Japan
Thanks chuck and kbennet. Based on your advice I went with the following (in case you were curious).

Torso:
Patagonia Cap 2 zip long sleeve
Patagonia R2 fleece jacket
Marmot Sharp Point
Marmot Precip

Legs:
Patagonia Cap 2 pants
Marmot Power Stretch Pants
Marmot Precip Pants

Now I just hope I picked the right sizes.

Top
#108454 - 12/29/08 03:32 PM Re: Ultralight winter clothing dilemma.... [Re: MrZeroPing]
bmisf Offline
member

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 629
MrZeroPing - I think you'll still want a warm down or synthetic puffy jacket to layer over all of this for rest stops and hanging out in camp (you've not said what temperatures you expect - you might get away without this if you're going to be 0 C or above).

The MontBell down parka is a good choice, and reasonably priced in Japan - or maybe you can find a used down jacket somewhere.

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Shout Box

Highest Quality Lightweight Down Sleeping Bags
 
Western Mountaineering Sleeping Bags
 
Lite Gear Talk - Featured Topics
Bivvy Sack combo Arrangement
by Jim M
10/18/17 01:58 AM
what is the lightest framed backpack around 40L
by toddfw2003
10/16/17 07:23 PM
a worthy challenger to the msr pocket rocket2
by the-gr8t-waldo
10/16/17 01:28 PM
Backcountry Discussion - Featured Topics
Backpacking/Camping Near Savannah, GA
by Sean&Brit
Today at 08:27 PM
Napa Fires
by balzaccom
10/11/17 07:43 PM
Backpacking the Ouachita Trail thanksgiving
by toddfw2003
10/05/17 11:54 PM
Make Your Own Gear - Featured Topics
lightest grommets to use
by toddfw2003
Today at 06:13 PM
alcohol stove comparisons
by Bike_packer
10/03/17 08:56 PM
Can footprint plasticizer harm tent ground-sheet?
by Weston1000
09/10/17 02:24 AM
Featured Photos
Breakneck Ridge, New York
May 2012 Eclipse, Lassen Park
New Years Eve 2011
Trip Report with Photos
Seven Devils, Idaho
Oat Hill Mine Trail 2012
Dark Canyon - Utah
Who's Online
0 registered (), 32 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Sean&Brit, Blackbuzzard, LivelyLiz, Weve, Tones21
12425 Registered Users
Forum Links
Disclaimer
Policies
Site Links
HOME
Backpacking.net
Family Hiking
Lightweight Gear Store
Backpacking Book Store
Lightweight Zone
Hiking Essentials

Outdoor Gear Daily Deals
Outlets, Sales, Bargains

Our long-time Sponsor, BackcountryGear.com - The leading source for ultralite/lightweight outdoor gear:

Backcountry Forum
 
 

Since 1996 - the Original Backcountry Forum
Copyright © The Lightweight Backpacker & BackcountryForum.com