I have been kicking around just a little, on whether to buy a new pack next Spring, or use my old Epperson pack as I am selling my scuffed up Golite Gust to one of our members here later this winter. Question, I seem to be consumed with getting another super light pack like the Gust, (20 oz.) or go with a little bit heavier pack, like a Mariposa, Vapor Trail, Jam2, Zpack, or do you like to use a pack where all your gear can go inside, or do you choose to use a lighter pack and strap some gear on the outside? My issue is getting a Garcia canister inside. My old Camptrails pack, when I gave it away, that is what I had to do for a long trip. When I was doing some research for a new pack, (my Epperson), I realized my old pack was suitable for a weekend.:) Any observations would be helpful. I may not even get a new pack as I am paying my credit card down now as I made plane reservations for a AK trip next August and they charge your card right away. Any threads on this topic, please point me to them, I did some searching last week and couldn't come up with much. Thank you.

I will put something on the outside of my pack if absolutely necessary. Especially on short trips with the family where I am the pack beast for my two kids and my wife. That said, I really don't like anything on the outside. Many years ago, I used a small Lowe pack and purchased side pockets for it because it did not have enough room for long trips. It took a couple of years before I realized I had to upgrade to a bigger pack (this is with old, heavy, large equipment especially sleeping bags <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) Internal frame packs are meant to carry the weight close to your back and this is even more true with the lightweight packs. Hanging stuff off the outside makes them harder to carry. So, my personal choice is to make sure my pack is large enough to carry everything I need for a 'standard' trip on the inside.

Good post.

I usually try to use the lightest/smallest pack for the job and I'll usually strap stuff outside unless 1)I'm bushwhacking or 2)I expect prolonged rain.

On trips where I'm carrying a light shelter/groundcloth, that item usually remains outside for four reasons: 1) It's light but bulky, 2)It's usually the first thing I unpack and the last thing I pack 3)It can be dirty/muddy at times and 4)Quick access if a sudden storm hits.

On long trips with a canister I'll start with stuff on the outside. Then as my food is consumed I'll rearrange and move inside items to the canister and move outside items inside.

Anything I strap outside has a backup attachment point. Usually if it's in a stuff sack e.g. tarp or jacket I'll tie the cinch cord around a pack strap....just in case it comes loose.

I think you might want to consider leverage when deciding whether to strap gear to the outside, as well as whether you're exposing it to damage from rocks or brush.

Since there's no damaging a Garcia can (and I'd definitely rethink carrying one of those monstrosities--get a Bearikade or Bear Vault instead) you can focus on where you'd strap it. The ony place (IMHO) is on top, which requires a pack with an extendable top pocket or top strap anchors--very strong ones.

Strapped to the back or bottom, a full canister will unbalance the load terribly, more so on back. As we know, heavy items are best carried high and close to the shoulder blades.

Anyhoo, canisters are miserable things to pack and a good many packs simply don't accommodate them. If you know you must carry one, I'd find a pack that lets you store it inside with the option of vertical and horizontal carry. Lighter items like sleeping pads can go outside the main compartment with ease, and without upsetting the load balance. Packs with long extension collars might allow keeping it all inside. For those that don't, in my experience, as the canister empties and I can transfer gear into it, I can eventually pack most everything inside the main pack compartment during the course of the trip.

My $.02

Excellent point. I just bought my first ever footprint ground cloth; haven't used it yet, what with winter just about to start, but I'll definitely try the outside carrying of this. In my climate, it's going to get at least a little wet anyway.

The advice I was given when I began hunting for my latest pack is to pick the pack with the characteristics (size, weight, pockets, etc.) that will suit the length and type of trip you will take the most often. For shorter trips, cinch it down. For longer trips, follow what everyone else is suggesting - start with some items on the outside and eventually move them inside as you deplete your gorp reserves <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. A bear cannister is not required where I BP so I have no advice there. I do strap my tarp on the outside on occasion.

That said, I'm the biggest clutz in the forest. Anything strapped to my pack is likely to cause me to find myself hanging from a branch on a stream crossing! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It seems to me this is an aesthetic choice more than anything else. If the overall pack weight is less when you tie articles to the outside of a smaller pack, it would seem to me that could be be a good choice, unless you just hate that kind of thing and prefer a more streamlined pack, in which case you'll hate the whole idea and go with the bigger pack. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I usually tie one on on my trips....what? Not that kind of tie one on ? My Bad!!

Whatever works is what you should do.

BF <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It's not entirely asthetic - too much crap tied on snags on bushes and gets lost. OTOH, there's some things that work just fine if properly secured. I hiked for a lot of years with my blue foam pad just tied up on the outside - didn't matter if it rained on it it didn't absorb water. If I'm taking a fly rod anywhere with me, I ususally have it in "rod case"
(a section of pvc builtin vac tube with a cap duct taped on each end) which I will tie
on securely.

But I don't really like a lot of stuff on the outside.

Thank you, excellent replies. I committed a newbie/cardinal sin, I forgot to mention I was looking at nothing over around 4200-4500 cubic inches. My original model Gust I believe it is, is only around that much and it seems to work for me. I had some bpers last year that I was on a Labor Day trip with and while we were waiting for the bus at Devils Post Pile, the lady who organized the trip, came over and hoisted my pack and was surprised how light it was by then. The Gust is slim and tall so it looks like you have a lot of stuff.

Not that I experimented with the position of heavy stuff, I had always heard to put heavy stuff low or around the middle of the pack. Maybe I was thinking of how my Camptrails external was to be packed. I'm anal about being sure stuff makes it to my next destination, everything is inside, or I am always reaching around to feel whatever is strapped on, is still there, usually in the winter to check my snowshoes if I am not wearing them. My old Camptrails, when I used it, I always looked like everything I owned was on my back.:) If the temps are coolish, or light rain, I will keep a rain coat or layer just under the top strap.

I only use my Garcia where a canister is required out here in the Sierra, otherwise, nothing in lightly used areas, or my original TKO if wanting some protection. On my 6-8 day trips, I don't know why, but it takes until the fourth day out to have any space in my canister for anything new. I guess by then, I'm not too concerned about how I repack my food. I'm with everyone on that though, I stick my pot, stove, etc. into my canister to consolidate some.

Putting a canister on top or outside a pack opens up more pack possibilities.

Off to Bucks Lake for an overnighter on Saturday.

I only put very light items (for convenience, like the water filter) in side pockets or wet things on the outside. My Tevas dangle outside, tarp goes in a webbing pocket or stuffed into the rolled up pad. Though I think when there is more possibility of rain I would shift to keeping everything in a pack liner except for things like the pad or Tevas.

The Bear Vault I have gets stuck in the top in the extension with small items and cook gear in it, or the bottom with something light in it, like clothes or one of my quilts. Food is stored in an OP sack that sits down against the pack frame, usually in front of the hydration pocket. If I put the food in the can and set it at the top it's too top heavy for me. This is particularly critical in a pack like my Gossamer Gear Mariposa Plus where pack comfort depends heavily on weight distribution. I have tried to put the Bear Vault in the Y strap on the Mariposa; it pops out when you cinch down tight. I wrap the extension over it and give the contents a good shove or two to compact things down to minimize shifting. The pack is a tad narrow to shove the can in the bottom; I'm leery of stressing seams with it. With the Granite Gear Nimbus Ozone, however, the BV fits in the bottom of the pack with room to spare.

The Ozone is listed as having a 3800 cu in capacity, but I was delighted to discover that it in fact will hold up to 4500 cu in while only weighing in at 3 pounds. I used it on a day trip with 20 lbs in it - the suspension made it effortless to carry. I packed it full of stuff and put it on around the apartment - can't wait to get it on a backpacking trip. I like my Mariposa Plus, when my weight is under the 30 lb max and the total volume is less than 4000 cu in. In summer those webbing pockets on the outside are great for stuffing the tarp and water filter in; I even put my platypus hoser in one of the side pockets instead of inside the pack. But the Ozone is just about close to perfect - I could carry a load of winter gear and 4-5 days of food and fuel in this thing, or compress it down for a day hike. The hip belt can be swapped out by the manufacturer if you decide you need a bigger/sturdier belt. It is not made to dangle lots of gear from the outside, but to pack it all in with maybe the pad on the back under some cross straps. It may very well become my all around pack.

Some thoughts:
Colin Fletcher advised never tying anything on outside of pack because there it is more susceptible to abrasion and weather and loss.

Horace Kephart, a much better writer than Fletcher, but perhaps suffering from slight alcholic dementia and paranoia, said in 1906, to paraphrase, that keeping things inside a pack "kept them from prying eyes" or something a little crazy like that. It's had relevance to me on occassion, depending on plans.

Thirty-five years ago, my late mother, prior to her own alcholic dementia, knitted the only sweater she ever made, and gave it to me. I tied it on to my backpack, and lost it within a week.

There was a great photo on NF commercial Web site some years ago of Kitty Coulhoun or some famous mountaineer, with a small alpine pack festooned with tons and tons of crap tied on outside.

I own a couple of packs in 3,000 cubic inch range, and one that is supposedly 7,000.

It can be a hell of a nuisance to deal with the small packs on certain trips. Sometimes I deal with it and once in a while, I use the big guy...Am currently planning a luxury weekend trip in 30F weather, and wondering why I want to have any cares about packing --- bring the big guy and to heck with it, am thinking......though I could certainly take a small pack........

Rarely do I actually and absolutely need the big pack... It is by the way, a "Frostfire" Mountainsmith from about 1990--- relatively awful piece of s**t, but it works pretty good...........Still, I'd never, EVER look at another Mountainsmith pack ---- even though I assume current versions are totally unrelated..........

If you look around, you can probably get something similar for practically nothing. Most people most of the time, if they're into lightweight camping, are better off with the small packs, in my opinion

I like it all inside, even my blue foam pad. I like high volume ultralight packs. As long as you don't overload them a high volume pack seems stronger than a smaller pack of the same weight because you don't have to overcompress stuff and strain the pack. I have a Jam2 and its great even for winter weekends and its great on skis, but for longer winter trips I would be better off with a Pinnacle. For now if I take Margaret on a weekender this winter I think I'll pull a sled or toboggan and bring extra stuff that way.

Try Goop adhesive to give the area where the straps are to be cinched down a little more of a grippy area to prevent the straps from sliding off. The stuff is clear and stays stretchy and kinda tacky to the touch.

During mtsteve's Lassen Park, Winterfest trips, I brought in some "attitude adjustment", although I didn't tie one on.:) He is over on The Backpacker, he plans an annual New Years trip most years,.He has been in the shop a couple times now the last year for repairs. Steve is a mountaineer and it has taken its toll on him so he didn't have a trip last year and maybe not this year either. Steve works for a climbing gear manufacturer in N. CA. Nice trips, nice folks, not getting too crazy.

A Bearicade is on the top of my list of new gear to buy, I just want to do the trip in August to AK, number one on my to do list. A new Bearicade would partially offset the weight of the Slinglight chair I bought a year ago.:) Let's see, spend $225 to shave 13 oz., over $17 an oz., not bad.

I guess companies are catering to folks, I was thinking last night about putting the heavy stuff low, high, outside, whatever. There must not be a concensus among manufacturers, as what the bulge at the bottom of a pack is for if there is one. A bear canister or a sleeping bag? Also, heavier item placement may depend on type of terrain going over. If, off trail, more rugged terrain, lower placement of heavy items. On trail, smooth terrain, high is ok. I'll have to ask about that. Putting my canister on top would solve two problems for me. First, in the morning, I can't load my pack until I finish eating, seems I have to put food back into the canister and I don't want to take my lunch out of the canister for consumption that day and leave it unattended while performing my nature call. I try to pack up as much as I can while I am eating. This would be resolved by having the canister on top. Second, by having the canister on top, assuming it is outside the pack, I could use a smaller capacity pack, but the pack suspension would still need to be able to handle around 30 lbs. I just can't get that weight under 30 lbs. for a week trip what with carrying a couple liters of water and over 10 lbs. of food. My pack weight is taking in the weight of the pack also.

Aesthetics has nothing to do with it. Like Phat said, it is a good way to loose stuff. In addition anything hanging off the pack will cause poor weight distribution and particularly if it dangles, will really result in more energy expended and less comfort. The worst thing is to dangle something off the back of the pack. It is the old "lever arm" - the farther from your back the longer the lever arm and thus the more it will pull you back.

I put EVERYTHING inside, except wet wading shoes. I am not able to get my bear cannister inside laying sideways - I have to have it long dimension up. This is really annoying. Very few packs are designed with the bear cannister in mind. A 2 pound pack vs a 3 pound pack should not be chosen simply on the basis of weight. If the 3 pound pack has a better design, better suspension system and better capacity to get all your stuff inside, go for the 3-pound pack. But bigger is not always better. Take ALL your stuff down to the store and try to pack it before buying any pack.

One small snag and the ground cloth is useless. I ruined my therm-a-rest by carrying it on the outside -- never again!

My Golite Gust pained my shoulders sometimes, but then I was carrying more then it was intended to carry. WD, I am weighing the idea of getting a three lb. pack. Kinda hard after having a 20 oz. Golite. Some of the packs I have looked at online, are on sale now. I worry more about my Thermarest inside my Gust, acting as the support, I try to wrap hard stuff like tent poles, fishing pole, etc. in socks or clothing. On my Epperson pack, it is tied on top in its stuff sack. It has been brushed a few times by limbs. A month ago, I kept snagging my chair on willows in the steep trail.

hd

I am an advocate of huge light spectra pack sacks. You don't need any pockets at all, but a top pocket can be nice, but I like the packs that are just one great big sack. With everything inside the pack you don't worry about losing or snagging, which really matters skiing or climbing.

I have a kelty cloud 6500, discontinued now, and sorry I don't know what the newest model is, but anyway its fully modular and goes from 29 oz to about 56 depending on which accessories are mounted. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I kinda think tying stuff to a UL pack is gonna have to overload what little balance and support there is.

Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I have never carried a canister, so I may not be qualified to answer.

I have three types of packs.

The "beast hauler" is what I use when I need to carry more than a week of food or more than a gallon of water. Side pockets are the best way to extend the capacity, and that is what I use for winter. My "beast hauler" is a McHale 0-SARC.

The "go to" pack is for up to a week of food and normally no more than 3 quarts of water. Six Moon Designs StarLite is my pack in this category.

My favorite pack in the "fast and light" category is a ZPacks Blast 32.

http://www.zpacks.com/backpacks/blast.shtml.

I prefer top loading packs with few pockets. I use stuff sacks for organization, but I also try to keep my kit simple. Everything that is carried on the outside of my pack is carried there for a purpose and not because I ran out of room.

Well, when I can work overtime at work again, I can get a third pack. My Gust, if I forget to open the valve an my pad after packing the pack, tends to fold in the middle and the only things I have tied on the outside, is the chair I got over a year ago, and in the winter, my snowshoes if a late winter trip. I like stufff inside so I don't have to worry about it. I have time on my side, being a Libra, I tend to compare stuff too much, so if I have too many choices, it is tough to make a decision. I was looking at a few other packs tonight and some of them are getting up there in price and they aren't custom packs. I got to think about packs some on my o/n trip this weekend and realized, that even if I get a smaller pack where a canister can go on top, without the canister, I still have to pack the food somewhere. I've been on a rare trip now and then where I could have gone with little gear where a Zpack would have been ridiculously great! Some one else makes a silnylon pack, that is close to the Zpacks weight, but is a lot less. Hmm?

I was wondering about the SMD packs, reminded of them while reviewing a site that had pack comparisons. I found an old link to pack comparisons on White Blaze that was over two years old though. I'm really tempted to pick up another pack soon, but I need to get a few things I don't have that are needed for my trip to AK.

It took a few years and then, to actually own a top loading pack, to realize, no fussing with a zipper or two. Plus, if you had to pull a zipper down, it is hard to zip back up. That is what I run into with my Epperson pack. I can see why it is the pack style of choice for packers.

I think you're over-analyzing the subject.

In my view, packs are somewhat over-rated. A load is a load and not good, whatever it weighs and however you carry it.

Frames are fine, design is fine...........and these help a little, but won't lighten the load.

Big packs are easy to pack.... and therefore offer some virtue.......But the best pack is always the smallest size you can deal with.

Bigger packs will mess you up, more or less.............whether they are fully or partly loaded. So will small packs, but a bit less than big packs.

Fit is another question and more easily addressed.

It's always best if the pack fits, but even this, obviously, won't change its weight.............

With the exception of my bear canister, which is by far the heaviest item I carry, the location of items in or on my pack make no difference to me in regard to how the pack feels on my body.

I like to have everything inside my pack with the following exceptions:
-Platy hoser in one bottle holder
-tent stuff in other bottle holder (stakes and poles)
-trowel in "tent stuff" bottle holder
-flip flops (or whatever shoes I am carrying) strapped to front of pack
-extra pad (normally closed cell or foam) strapped to front of pack

Why do I put everything in the pack? Well, it's a personal preference thing based on organization. I don't like stuff hanging on the outside of my pack, and it makes putting a pack cover on in rain a lot easier. I have a McHale Popcan that is my go to pack for all occasions. In the winter it is the perfect size for all my extra gear (primarily clothing), and in the summer I can fill the extra space with my pad or just cinch up the sides. I occasionally carry a bear canister in it, and it fits horizontally on top of everything (the pack it specifically designed for this).

Oh yeah, and I don't know the exact size of my pack, but I think it's probably around 4,400 cubic inches.

I think I have settled on a new pack. I had narrowed my choice down from a Mariposa Plus, ULA Circuit, SMD Starlite, but revisited Golite yesterday. The Mariposa Plus is made from silnylon, may not be that durable, the Circuit is smaller than I wanted and is a little heavier than I wanted. I could see no over whelming poor reviews about the Golite Pinnacle. Only one comment where it looked like the seams were stretched. I did further research yesterday morning and it is the replacement to my Gust, which I like and from the two Golite items I have, very high quality. My Coal jacket looks like something Patagonia would offer for sale, that nice of quality. Anyway, my reason at this point on getting a Pinnacle, weight is only a little more than the Gust, has the volume I am wanting, durable dyneema material, but watch for rocks banging where the bear canister is, larger main compartment, less volume in outside pockets and I found a source for one that is selling them for way under a $100. That would make it almost $50 cheaper than the holiday priced Starlite. The small bping group I belong to, made me offers to use their pre-Starlite packs, but I don't know when I will see those folks. I have a cord of cottonwood firewood from a tree my mom had cut down I can sell to pay for the pack, so I may order one later this week. The only thing I am not sure about is how comfortable some of these packs are with 30 lbs in them. Some reviews are for slightly lighter loads and shorter trips than I would go on usually, I know I can make it for a weekend, just the week long trip I would need more feed back on. Enjoy your Thanksgiving.

Duane