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#105907 - 11/06/08 12:41 PM Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone?
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

We talk a lot about what's good, how about the worst of what's bad: How about some nominations for the worst of the worst. You know the stuff. The kind of gear that makes
people send boy scouts of 14 out with 60 pound packs for a weekend.

Some limits:

A) We're talking about general three season *lightweight backpacking*. not techincal mountaineering, and not winter in any kind of serious winter.

B) Has to be currently manufactured and sold. No horror stories about gear from the dark ages.

So, how about nominations for your two favorites in the following categories:

1) Most often oversold (they needed a volkswagen, but got sold a lambhorgini)
2) Best Newbie trap (market to the clueless! it works!)
3) Most Overbuilt/Overweight (How much heavy crap can they put on it)
4) High Maintenance Prince/Princess Magnet (Attracts those who have to make the woods just like the suburbs)
5) Machismo Magnet (being a lawyer/stockbroker/computer geek isn't that manly, but carrying *this* in the woods is)
6) Gets taken for a ride (it always goes, but never gets used)
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#105908 - 11/06/08 12:57 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: phat]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
And I'll post one for each <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

1) Most often Oversold

*MSR Dragonfly*

ok it's a decent stove, and probably a good choice for winter, but its funny as heck to watch the salescritter push them onto people like they're gonna be jamie oliver in the bush - then I see them backpacking a weekend in the summer with a giant bottle of whitegas, and making a pot of Mac N Cheeze over it.

2) Best Newbie Trap

While I'd love to say my choice is the phrase "in case you go out in winter" I think I'll nominate:

*Sam Splint*

I've seen 'em in three different backpacks. all of them with people who had no formal first aid training. I have, and still wouldn't carry one.

3) Most Overbuilt/Overweight

*MEC Ibex 80 Backpack*

3 kilos - straps and gizmos of the apocolypse. need I say more?

4) High Maintenance Prince/Princess Magnet

I'll let someone else nominate the expresso machines <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'll instead pick a few fights and nominate:

*The Backpackers Pantry Outback Oven*

like you can't just use your pot - or some foil - or realize that a huge amount of the world lives all the time wihout baking anything, you can make good food without carrying this thing and all the fuel
you need to fire it.

5) Machismo Magnet

I'm gonna nominate *Bear Bangers* - any brand. fires a little shell in the air that explodes - and sends the poor critter running in random directions. I don't belive in em, and they get sold
to people who just wanna make noise.

6) Taken for a ride

*Primus Easy Lite Lantern*

Only chose that one because I saw one being packed by someone this year. Lanterns in
summer backpacking get taken for a ride.




Edited by phat (11/06/08 01:01 PM)
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#105909 - 11/06/08 01:06 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: phat]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
I'll have to think about specifics, but if you look at a BSA store, it is full of these things. The BSA store is designed for overprotective parents who never go camping and only buy name brand stuff. The problem is they don't know what quality camping name brands are, so if it says BSA, it must be good, and since it is expensive.....

Give me some time, I will come up with a decent list. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#105910 - 11/06/08 03:04 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: phat]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
“2) Best Newbie trap (market to the clueless! it works!)”

A. Low price tents. What a good deal! Sometimes our scout troop has fallen for the Swiss Gear or Hillary brand tents. Every single time one of the following has happened:
1. Leaks profusely in a rain storm. Scout gets depressed.
2. Zipper broke (famous on Hillary). Mosquito party.
3. Pole snaps. What do you expect w/ boys and fiberglass poles? Plus these are not robust in the wind. Kelty and Eureka aluminum poles are much better for the cost.

B. Low price sleeping bag. They don’t even look at the 5lb weight.

C. Like I was told at St. Louis REI “If you go backpacking then you need these backpacking boots”.

D. most stoves and kitchen sets are overkill

6) Gets taken for a ride (it always goes, but never gets used)

Bring a change of clothes. They don’t realize you can wear your shirt and pants every day. So they bring blue jeans and a sweat shirt.




And how about another list for anti-anti light gear? i.e., they totally forgot it and thus weighs 0 oz.!
1. Headlamp
2. eating utensil


-Barry

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#105911 - 11/06/08 03:23 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: BarryP]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:


And how about another list for anti-anti light gear? i.e., they totally forgot it and thus weighs 0 oz.!
1. Headlamp
2. eating utensil


-Barry


Nah, that's a different topic - the stupid stuff I pulled a homer and forgot.

BTW, I have successfully managed to get into the field without both of those.

Actually, I didn't forget the headlamp, I just only got halfway through changing the batteries, like and idiot. Solution? my backup coin light and my lighter.

different trip - left spoon at home. solution? the first and second tool man ever invented... (fingers and stick). it works.

yes, it means I could "do without" both of those. however it does show me that at some level I'm still a high maintenance princess. I like the convienience of a light and a spoon to eat my food with <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#105912 - 11/06/08 03:50 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: phat]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
In no particular order:

Arctery'x Bora 80-big, heavy and really expensive;

Any hatchet, survival tool combo;

Any four season tent for someone who will never be snow camping.

Any kind of battery powered stove or lantern.
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#105913 - 11/06/08 03:53 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: phat]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
My biggest beef has to be with 99% of the daypacks and backpacks sold everyday but in general, everything made heavier just so they can charge more, which includes just about all outer clothing and footwear, especially kids stuff.

The heavy crap that many people buy but don't really need doesn't bother me so much.

Top
#105914 - 11/06/08 04:40 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: phat]
Bearpaw Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/25/04
Posts: 1732
Loc: Tennessee
1) Most often oversold The most expensive pack on the wall (because it MUST be better).

2) Best Newbie trap ALL NEW GEAR, instead of simply borrowing.

3) Most Overbuilt/Overweight Gregory and Arc'Teryx packs

4) High Maintenance Prince/Princess Magnet The North Face Denali Jacket - most overpriced antiquated piece of gear on every private shool kid in Nashville.

5) Machismo Magnet All-leather boots over 4 pounds per pair for weekend backpacking.

6) Gets taken for a ride Fancy pre-made first-aid kits with stuff the carrier doesn't even know how to use.
_________________________
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#105915 - 11/06/08 06:59 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: phat]
lars Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 152
Loc: Bay Area

1) Most often oversold
$450 waterproof jacket--worn spring/summer/fall in the Sierra Nevada (for non-Californians: it doesn't rain between mid-April and early November)

2) Best Newbie trap
3 layer GoreTex pants

3) Most Overbuilt/Overweight
(a) 90l backpack scrunched down for weekend trips
(b) Gerber Multi-Plier 800 Legend
(c) Cast iron frying pan (seriously!!!!)

4) High Maintenance Prince/Princess Magnet
ditto on the Denali fleece

5) Machismo Magnet

6 inch Kabar knife

6) Gets taken for a ride

Brunton SolarRolls(tm)

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#105916 - 11/06/08 07:59 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: phat]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
High Maintenance Prince/Princess Magnet:

The GSI espresso machine.

Or:

Fancy Lexan wine glasses. Don't ask. I have friends who carry those things. Fine for 3 mile hikes but not treks.

Or:

The Backpackers Pantry Outback Oven.

You are so on that one! With the lid of many 2L pots you can cook anything you desire or just bake it in the pot. Or steam it instead in silicone liners.

Oh don't get me wrong - hot pizza is great. But realistically? Yeah, not many who actually do it in the wilds. Myself...I'll hike an extra 5 miles a day so I can go buy a hot pizza pie and frosty ice tea on the way home <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Freezer Bag Cooking, Trail Cooking, Recipes, Gear and Beyond:
www.trailcooking.com

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#105917 - 11/06/08 08:08 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: lars]
thecook Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 541
Loc: Minnesota
Hey! Don't knock that cast iron frying pan. Many years ago I was backpacking in the Adirondacks and was invited to breakfast by the group in the next camp site. Jeans and flanel shirts, flanel covered camp bags, axes, platic sheeting strung on 1/2 rope, and yes a 12" cast iron frying pan (We're talking about 5 miles in from the trail head) They cooked up several pounds of breakfast sausage and several pounds of bacon in that skillet and then started dropping eggs into all that grease. Yummy! Cast iron fry pans are fine with me - as long as I don't have to carry them.
_________________________
If I wouldn't eat it at home, why would I want to eat it on the trail?

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#105918 - 11/07/08 09:17 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: sarbar]
Chad_Hahn Offline
newbie

Registered: 01/06/05
Posts: 11
Quote:
High Maintenance Prince/Princess Magnet:

The GSI espresso machine.



Don't knock the espresso machine. I don't know if I'd take it backpacking but I've taken it motorcycle camping. At the halfway point through my trip I visited my dad and I was able to pull out my Svea 123 and my espresso machine and make a cup of coffee as we were all sitting on the patio.

It was all pretty cool until the espresso machine fell off it's precarious perch and spilled the full cup of coffee all over the patio. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Chad

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#105919 - 11/07/08 09:51 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: phat]
alanwenker Offline
member

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 812
I'll go on record as defending the outback oven as I think it works very well. That said, I would never take an outback oven on a trip if I had to carry it on my back. I mainly use mine for car camping and for family canoe trips.

Kitchen gizmos in general are quite amazing. All are wonderful for a car camping trip and all are worthless on a backpacking trip.

Top
#105920 - 11/07/08 10:13 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: finallyME]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
So, for number 2 and 6, I nominate the "survival knife". You know the kind, less than 20 bucks, has a hollow handle with stuff in it, sometimes accompanied by the words "special forces", Stainless Steel blade. Many newbies take it "just in case" and think it is essential. The fact that the blade is crap (too dull to do anything, and crappy steel so it won't hold an edge), the saw on the blade doesn't work, the handle is barely attached and falls off easily, will eventually show itself when it is needed and can't be used. We won't talk about the "survival" stuff inside. Some is good, and some not, but you could make your own little kit that works better and weighs a few pounds less.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#105921 - 11/08/08 04:35 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: phat]
Damian Offline
member

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 324
Quote:


5) Machismo Magnet (being a lawyer/stockbroker/computer geek isn't that manly, but carrying *this* in the woods is)


Why do you think lawyers aren't "manly"?


Damian (a lawyer)

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#105922 - 11/08/08 06:28 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: phat]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
I would say cheap and heavy gear from walmart. Sleeping bags rated to be good at 40+ but too bulky and heavy. Tents that have heavy everything and leak like a strainer the first rain.

Top
#105923 - 11/08/08 06:38 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: thecook]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
I was looking at some of my old gear the other day trying to decide what to do with it. 12" cast iron fry pan. 2 burner coleman stove. 20 bottles of propane, Very warm very large sleeping bag (from walmart), cheap dome tent, 20+ diy alcy stoves, Mess kit . Axe, Large hunting knife, cooking utensils, set of 4 place setting.
Its all in a large rubbermaid container. I decided to save it. For what I don't know.
Got any good ideas? Well, besides the trash.
_________________________
Enjoy your next trip...

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#105924 - 11/08/08 07:23 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: chaz]
lars Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 152
Loc: Bay Area
Set it up at local schools next to your current setup? Might make a nice history/LNT lecture.

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#105925 - 11/08/08 08:04 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: chaz]
thecook Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 541
Loc: Minnesota
Stick the cast iron skillet in your kitchen. They are wonderful pans for frying and need only a little oil if properly seasoned. Save the rest for car camping with friends, family, scouts, or as loaner gear.
_________________________
If I wouldn't eat it at home, why would I want to eat it on the trail?

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#105926 - 11/08/08 08:06 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: lars]
thecook Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 541
Loc: Minnesota
Use the two bruner for family gatherings. My wife's family used to get together on Memorial day every year at a local park for breakfast. Those two burner stoves work great for making panckaes, bacon and eggs for a crowd.
_________________________
If I wouldn't eat it at home, why would I want to eat it on the trail?

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#105927 - 11/08/08 10:46 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: thecook]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
Absolutely... by far my favorite pan in the kitchen is my cast iron. Makes the best biscuits and cornbread, is the original "non-stick" pan as long as it is seasoned correctly, and is infinitely durable. I had quite the collection of cast iron that I left with my ex, but did finally get my original pan back, which I've had since I was 21. Needless to say, I've gone through many sets of pots and pans since then, but the cast iron is still going strong.

MNS
_________________________
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#105928 - 11/08/08 11:41 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: midnightsun03]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
I have a cast iron frying pan, and it is the best pan ever. It is much better than ANY non-stick pan. Plus, if you are having a hard time cleaning it, then you can scrap it off with a wire brush or wire brush wheel, then just re-season. You can't do that with Teflon. Also, the handle doesn't break off, and it heats food VERY evenly.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#105929 - 11/08/08 02:49 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: midnightsun03]
thecook Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 541
Loc: Minnesota
Congrats on getting you pan back. My favorite cast iron pan is one I inherited from my gradnmother. Imagine, over 80 years old and still going strong. I have, however, broken a cast iron pan. I wa making blackened chicken and the chicken was too cold for the hot pan.
_________________________
If I wouldn't eat it at home, why would I want to eat it on the trail?

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#105930 - 11/08/08 03:00 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: phat]
RobA Offline
member

Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 92
Nalgene's


Tons of hikers like them. They are a heavy choice! Especially when folks bring 3 or 4 with them.

Top
#105931 - 11/09/08 07:57 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: RobA]
just_another_Joe Offline
member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 117
Multi-fuel, expedition stoves sold to summer weekend backpackers that only need the heat of an alky stove.

The manufacturer rep tells the first time stove buyer that this stove worked great at 15,000 feet in Peru.

Top
#105932 - 11/09/08 08:26 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: RobA]
just_another_Joe Offline
member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 117
The whole idea that SUL is better than UL is better than lightweight gear, and the solution is to buy more new gear that is lighter than last year's new gear.

In the cost category, titanium cups in the smaller sizes. The material is a few grams lighter than the aluminum equivalent and costs about 4X as much. Yes, lighter is better, but at $5 a gram lighter, that is a triumph of advertising over common sense. Okay, pay a hundred dollars a pound for lightening your pack or bag, but don't pay $40 for a metal cup that holds less than a 12 oz. Heineken beer can, yet weighs more.

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#105933 - 11/09/08 08:36 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: just_another_Joe]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2742
Loc: California
I have a titanum cup - and love it! I also really like my titanium cookset. To me it is worth every dollar. I do not use aluminum cookware AT ALL. Ingestion of aluminim may be linked to Alheizmers.

I actually cook - not just boil water. In the past when I used aluminum, I felt they burned food more easily.

Now, to put it in perspective, these items were given to me as gifts. I always put the expensive UL gear on my Christmas list!

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#105934 - 11/09/08 09:04 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: wandering_daisy]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
The Alheizmers society has ruled out aluminum as a cause of Alheizmers disease.

That said, it is far better to own one titanium cookset and get good use out of it and take good care of it than all the truly wasteful things we do with materials and energy each and every day. Titanium is perhaps the most sustainable choice for a cookset, once we know what we want. If we are still experimenting with shapes and sizes it is better to work with aluminum.

p.s. Beer should be home brewed, and stored in large glass bottles, with re-usable stopper tops. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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#105935 - 11/10/08 07:02 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: midnightsun03]
Haiwee Offline
member

Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 330
Loc: Southern California
I've had my cast iron pan since I was eighteen, so it's seen almost thirty years of use. The thing is so well-seasoned than nothing sticks to it. My Dad's pan has got to be fifty years old, and my sister and I are already fighting over who will eventually get it. Best cookware ever designed.
_________________________
My blog on politics, the environment and the outdoors: Haiwee.blogspot.com

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#105936 - 11/10/08 07:06 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: wandering_daisy]
coyotemaster Offline
member

Registered: 03/07/06
Posts: 294
Loc: Arizona
Quote:
I do not use aluminum cookware AT ALL. Ingestion of aluminim may be linked to Alheizmers.


I'm glad you point that out.
I don't even use antiperspirant, only deodorant, because of the aluminum salts.

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#105937 - 11/10/08 07:32 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: coyotemaster]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:
Quote:
I do not use aluminum cookware AT ALL. Ingestion of aluminim may be linked to Alheizmers.


I'm glad you point that out.
I don't even use antiperspirant, only deodorant, because of the aluminum salts.


Alzheimer's Society - Aluminium and Alzheimer's disease
http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/factsheet/406

"The overwhelming medical and scientific opinion is that the findings outlined above do not convincingly demonstrate a causal relationship between aluminium and Alzheimer's disease, and that no useful medical or public health recommendations can be made - at least at present (Massey and Taylor 1989)."

The Alzheimer's Society has held to this opinion since 1989, almost 20 years.


That said, I don't use aluminum containing anti-perspirants either, but I try to avoid all unneccessary use of any such consumer products. Most plastics, personal hygene products, cleaning supplies, air fresheners, textile coatings, it's all crap mostly. The cumulative effect of all of this is waste and ill-health. I keep it simple, and stick with safe materials that exist naturally. I have taken to using stuff like cheap gin mixed with water for after-shave, mouth-wash, and sparingly on under arms and feet and other body parts now and then. I get plain natural soap and shampoo and use it sparingly, but mostly depend on healthy exercise before I shower and clean hot water to stay clean and fresh. I wear wool, but wash it only when it is noticeably dirty or smelly, and usually then only a rinse. Only my underwear gets washed everyday.

I use any metal cookware, prefering stainless at home and not particular in the field, but I avoid plastics and plastic coatings, and food that is over processed and over packaged. Basically, I try and keep it natural. I use safe materials that exist in nature and the body in naturally adapted to. I am skeptical about ALL consumer products. I use materials, not brand names.

Ironically, the epoxy used to coat aluminum cans is not safe, but the aluminum is. It is usually a pretty thin coating, and safer than the Nalgene bottles, but I might still think twice before using an epoxy coated beer can or juice can metal for hot water. I think the coffee cans are uncoated.

Aluminum makes up 8% of the weight of the Earth's crust.
It's mostly in dirt, rocks, and ceramics as aluminum oxides and compounds.
It doesn't exist naturally as a metal, but it coats itself with its own oxide.
I might not use it for long term storage of tomatoes, but I would cook with it.
I wouldn't use aluminum-chloride as anti-perspirant, but I'm not afraid of clay.
Aluminum is a natural material. We just shouldn't do un-natural things with it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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#105938 - 11/10/08 08:14 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: phat]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
Don't know what category this really falls in, but the common old school Tube Tent deserves honorable mention. It may make sense as emergency gear but nothing more.

There's nothing like sleeping in a big plastic bag <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

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#105939 - 11/10/08 08:42 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: phat]
Heber Offline
member

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 245
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
Just got back from hiking with our local scout troop and did a little research. We had lots of boys with HEAVY packs. I swear some of them were bigger than the boys carrying them. I got to look in some of the packs and the NUMBER one offendeder? (drum roll please)

THE PACK ITSELF! I couldn't believe some of these monsters. Big, heavy external frames, many extra compartments here and there. Straps and straps everywhere. Several boys had the Kelty Yukon 3000. Perhaps not the heaviest there but it was the most common. I looked it up this morning: 4 pounds 9 ounces. Besides the huge metal frame it has a "hold open bar". A few of the adult leaders had the large size version of the pack. When you look the pack up on Kelty's website it says "popular with scouts". I think that is a warning sign.

Secondary offenders (in order of seriousness)

Heavy sleeping bags (doesn't bother me as much since my main concern on these trips is that the boys don't get cold at night and the price differential between a warm-but-light bag and a warm-but-heavy bag can be very steep)

Extra clothes (this was an overnight hike but the moms packed for several days, needless to say no scout changed so this was all "along for the ride")

Nalgene bottles (very nearly universal)

BIG knives

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#105940 - 11/10/08 08:56 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: Heber]
phat Offline
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Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

I think mom packing the bag should be the first warning sign..

Of course the problem if mom doesn't pack it is in the other extreme they end up with a pack with three bags of ju-jubes, 8 cans of coke, a PSP with 50 games, an no clothes because they play video games in their underwear at home..
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#105941 - 11/10/08 09:22 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: phat]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
ROFLMAO
Good one Phat. video game in underwear. classic

I gotta agree the biggest offender is overweight packs.
Way too heavy and way too much money also.

The Scout Shop should be sued for this. I'm serious. They have no excuse.
If they wanna rip-off adults that's fine, but kids, scouts? Come on.

The other crap they sell I have no problem with.

Scouts need a 3600ci 2 pound pack for $60.
Cubs need a 1800ci 1 pound pack for $40.
This ain't rocket science folks. This is just scouting. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#105942 - 11/10/08 09:37 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: Heber]
alanwenker Offline
member

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 812
I find it amazing how much more modern externals weigh compared to the 1970's versions. Pick up a Kelty D4 verus a modern Kelty and the difference is amazing. Modern packs seem to have hip belts designed for expedition loads in packs that are meant for weekend backpacking.

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#105943 - 11/10/08 09:49 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: JAK]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Actually, I think the best thing you could do is have scouts go out with an 1800 CI pack. I do weekends on such a thing (with my sleeping pad strapped to the outside) no problem at all.

Big backpacks just mean they fill them with useless crap. - volume is the enemy because they
fill it.
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#105944 - 11/10/08 09:54 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: alanwenker]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
It's all because most people pay more money for something that weighs more. Kids footwear and rain gear is all pretty much the same, even to the point of total loss of function, especially in winter clothing. I shudder every time my mother in law wants to buy my daughter a new winter outfit, but you can't stop them. After she parades that around on Christmas morning we wait for the snow and then put on her real winter clothes and head out to play. It's really quite sad. Don't get me started on running sneakers with 1" platform soles. The entire kid weighs less than my feet alone, and they put them on stilts? Even running stores do this. They gotta start making clothes for kids, not adults that buy for kids.

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#105945 - 11/10/08 10:00 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: JAK]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Ugh. You made me go look at the online catalogue for the scouts canada scout shop, and I'm
having post traumatic flashbacks to my backpacking experiences with scouts when I was a little pup - especially the coleman peak 1 stove and metal handled hatchet. I need to go twitch nervously in the corner for a while.

I think I could basically nominate everything in it..
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Winter list.
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#105946 - 11/10/08 10:14 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: phat]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:

Actually, I think the best thing you could do is have scouts go out with an 1800 CI pack. I do weekends on such a thing (with my sleeping pad strapped to the outside) no problem at all.

Big backpacks just mean they fill them with useless crap. - volume is the enemy because they
fill it.
Yeah I agree with you on that. I use a 3100ci on overnights even in winter, even with a wide blue foam pad. I've used a 1800ci daypack in summer also. 2400ci 1.5 pounds could be standard for scouts, and 1200ci 1 pound for cubs. Heck they could make their own I suppose. I'm going to convert my 1200ci 10oz daypack for my daughter. It's got a waist strap, down below her bum at the moment. Plenty of volume for what she will carry though. She is a Guide now, but bascially still cub sized. Lots of fun.

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#105947 - 11/10/08 01:15 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: phat]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:

Ugh. You made me go look at the online catalogue for the scouts canada scout shop, and I'm
having post traumatic flashbacks to my backpacking experiences with scouts when I was a little pup - especially the coleman peak 1 stove and metal handled hatchet. I need to go twitch nervously in the corner for a while.

I think I could basically nominate everything in it..


Now you are beginning to see why I said that anything in the BSA shop would fit your criteria. For those who don't know, BSA stands for (Boy Scouts of America).
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#105948 - 11/10/08 01:33 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: JAK]
StepChld Offline
member

Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Garland, Texas
Quote:

Scouts need a 3600ci 2 pound pack for $60.
Cubs need a 1800ci 1 pound pack for $40.
Where might this 3600ci, 2lbs. pack for $60 be found at? I would love to find that for my son and his troop as well!
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#105949 - 11/10/08 02:06 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: StepChld]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:
Quote:

Scouts need a 3600ci 2 pound pack for $60.
Cubs need a 1800ci 1 pound pack for $40.
Where might this 3600ci, 2lbs. pack for $60 be found at? I would love to find that for my son and his troop as well!

If they can build a 5# packs for $60, why not 2# packs for $60?
http://www.scoutshops.com/acatalog/rucksacks.html

...and why are they $100 in USA, and even heavier?
http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/Item...;amp;item=24184

http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/Item...;amp;item=24185


Here are some very good, cheap, and light alternatives for your son for now...
$40 for 2400ci 1.25 pounds
http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/packdetail.cfm?PRODUCTS__productID=CMP605

$100 for 2800-3200ci varying sizes ~1.25 pounds
http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/packdetail.cfm?PRODUCTS__productID=GO9112
http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/packdetail.cfm?PRODUCTS__productID=GO9121

I have the Jam2 Men's Large. It's a great pack.
I use it even in winter, but I might get the Pinnacle for winter use.
$130 for 4000-4500ci varying sizes ~1.5 pounds
http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/packdetail.cfm?PRODUCTS__productID=GO9120

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#105950 - 11/10/08 02:39 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: finallyME]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:

Now you are beginning to see why I said that anything in the BSA shop would fit your criteria. For those who don't know, BSA stands for (Boy Scouts of America).


Yeah, and it distresses me a very great deal actually - I kind of learned to love backpacking and being outside in spite of my scouting experience. I think I mentioned on WCT this summer passing
a group of american boy scouts heading for the length of the west coast trail - and talking to the adult leader, he was mentioning they were keeping the kids lightweight - *trying* to keep them under 45 lbs, and mentioning they weren't always successful. *45 lbs* on a 12 year old kid walking 8 days worth of rough trail that *I* am walking with a pack that I started with 28 lbs with dropped down to about 18 or so near the end, and my clothing is a lot bigger than your average 12 year old kid in that scout troop. What a way to not have a good time.

I realize most scout leaders are amateurs too, but man, there's something in me that says the blind leading the blind just sends our youth off a cliff. How the heck do we get any kind of notion of
appropriate packweight and keeping it simple into scouts I don't know.
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Winter list.
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#105951 - 11/10/08 03:34 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: phat]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
I wonder how many scout troop in North America, or around the world, has gone reasonably light and cheap, carrying their own gear on multiple overnights.

I am not sure how to define reasonably light and cheap.
Depends on the size of scouts and the climate I suppose.

Perhaps as a simple squared function of height, like...
4'0" = 16 pounds pack weight, or even skin out weight
4'6" = 20 pounds ''
5'0" = 25 pounds ''
5'6" = 30 pounds ''
6'0" = 36 pounds ''

Here is a growth charts for boys, for the curious...
guidelines.http://pediatrics.about.com/library/growth_charts/nboystwo.htm

I bought the Field Book for Canadian Scouting the other day. I must say its a great book for $10 and I've heard some middle school and high school teachers actually use it for some course curriculum. It has alot of good stuff in there, including advice on buying stuff, but nothing that I recall about limiting or minimizing the amount of weight they carry. You would think that Scouts would have some reasonable guidelines. There's got to be something. It's pretty basic stuff. I think medical associations have already spoken out about books and book bags in the last few years, which have gotten way out of hand.

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#105952 - 11/10/08 03:37 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: phat]
Spock Offline
member

Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 679
Loc: Central Texas
Back in the 1970s I designed and prototyped a duffle bag/frameless backpack aimed especially at scouts. Figured the dual duty would make it more practical for cash strapped families. That was the era of stagflation before Paul Volker brought inflation under control. I sent it to the BSA headquarters with the clear understanding that I was giving them the design free and clear. I just wanted them to make it easier for scouts to backpack easily. Well... the pack disappeared and no one would fess up. Of course, at the time, BSA had decided that camping was passe', so they were moving to other activities. OFs will remember that this was about the time backpacking had already taken off big time and was growing. Go figure.

Incidentally, this was a compressible bag that used the sleeping pad as support. It had an upside-down V zipper on the single main compartment and detachable pockets. It weighed 2.25 pounds in Cordura at about 4,000 cubic inches.

I sometimes do UL programs for troops. The leaders are more clueless than the kids.

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#105953 - 11/10/08 03:48 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: JAK]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Standard equipment list given to parents. No mention of weight limits.
http://www.scouts.ca/media/documents/Equipmentlist.doc

Duty of Care...
http://www.scouts.ca/dnn/ForParents/DutyofCare/tabid/149/Default.aspx

Duty of Care

The mission of Scouting is to contribute to the education of young people, through a value system based on the Scout Promise and Law, to help build a better world where people are self-fulfilled as individuals and play a constructive role in society.

The Code of Conduct is expected of all adults who volunteer within Scouts Canada, recognizing that at all times they are expected to act responsibly and exercise a "Duty of Care" to the youth members.


These are the safe limits according to the medical profession:
http://z.about.com/d/ergonomics/1/0/w/-/-/-/bpweightchart.jpg

According to that chart, my 9 year old daughter should carry no more than 5 pounds in a backpack.

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#105954 - 11/10/08 03:48 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: StepChld]
Heber Offline
member

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 245
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
You can get an 1,830 CI pack that weighs 22 ounces at REI for $55.

http://www.rei.com/product/747523

That seems right for the smaller scouts. A little above your $40/1lb target but still not too bad. For my son who is 6 I bought the smaller version of this pack (the flash UL) for $25 which weighs 9 ounces and has a capacity of 1000 CI.

For the larger pack how about the Fanatic Fringe Thompson Peak pack which only weighs 9.5 ounces.

http://www.fanaticfringe.com/page5.html

It's 3600 CI for $69 or $79 depending on whether you need the hip belt.

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#105955 - 11/10/08 06:46 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: Heber]
thecook Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 541
Loc: Minnesota
As a former scout and backpacker for over 20 years who is now teaching his own children to enjoy backpacking, I have to disagree with the premise that lighter is always better in a child's backpack. Kids end up carrying a greater percentage of body weight than adults simply because they weigh so little. It is very important that their pack support that weight and transfer a significant portion to their hips. A little extra weight of pack is worth it for good support. One example. I took my 8 year old daughter backpacking in late August and she carried between 5 and 6 lbs in a good fitting school bag. Although she made it, the hike in was hard for her and necessitated many stops (and some whining). In early October, the whole family went back to the same place and she carried between 11 and 12 lbs in an Ospry Jib. (No she did not have a growth spurt in the interim) She went the whole distance, almost skipping most of the way, with no stops and no whining. It was not just the fact that she had a new pack, but that the pack transfered so much of the weight onto her hips. Legs are strong, they carry us around all the time. Arms, shoulders, and backs are weak in comparision.
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#105956 - 11/10/08 06:49 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: Spock]
thecook Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 541
Loc: Minnesota
And the leaders at National are even more clueless.
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If I wouldn't eat it at home, why would I want to eat it on the trail?

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#105957 - 11/10/08 07:27 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: Heber]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Heber,
I was a scout. When we went to scout camp for a week we were given a list of gear written by the same idiot responsible for the "ten esentials". So Every other kid in my troop had a medium sized canvas pack whereas I had my fathers huge suitcase - no pack - because it was required for all the extra clothes - clean underwear, etc, that my mother packed and insisted that I take. It never got opened once on the entire trip - I took everything home clean but the clothes I had on when I left! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ya need a 5 pound sleeping bag with the little roll up sack on the end that sets up as a canopy to keep the rain offn yer face, and an 8 pound airmattress with a built in foot pump. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Whats a tent footprint? I don't think I've ever owned one of them things. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Oh yes, I also had a 50 blade knife with a spoon and fork on the sides.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#105958 - 11/10/08 07:37 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: thecook]
alanwenker Offline
member

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 812
The number of scout troops that ever overnight backpack is really quite small, the vast bulk of troops only ever car camp. Therefore leaders never acquire the experience and knowledge of going light and can't pass it on to the kids. When troops do take 'The Backpacking Trip' packs tend to be heavy from a poor selection of gear along with bringing far too much stuff.

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#105959 - 11/10/08 07:38 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: Jimshaw]
alanwenker Offline
member

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 812
Got to love those knives.

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#105960 - 11/10/08 08:13 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: thecook]
Tango61 Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 931
Loc: East Texas Piney Woods
Quote:
And the leaders at National are even more clueless.


The "leaders at National" have a lot of different needs to consider and to balance. They have to develop a program to meet the needs of a wide variety of conditions.

So, it is up to us "knowledgeable" light weight backpackers to train others. We have to balance the long term durability of equipment to the attitude/aptitude of young Scouts.



Quote:
Standard equipment list given to parents. No mention of weight limits.
http://www.scouts.ca/media/documents/Equipmentlist.doc


I think if you cross reference this list against several of the equipment lists on this board, you will find many similarities. We have to educate new backpackers that you don't have to take everything on this list!


alanwenker - you are right on with your comments (ditto my comments from above).

We discourage our parents from rushing out and spending a lot of money on gear. We provide them a list and it doesn't include a backpack. We encourage them to use what they have or borrow from others (e.g. older Scouts with left over gear). We only take 1-2 short backpacking trips a year (less than 10 miles) and those don't happen until late fall or early spring. By then, the parents have a good idea if their child is going to stick it out. At that time, we start having meetings where we discuss backpacking equipment. I like to bring my light weight equipment (most of it is quite inexpensive) and show them what they "need" to have rather than what they "think" they'll need.

Again, it is up to us that have the knowledge to train others.

Here is a link that has been shared before and that I share with our Scouts and parents.
http://www.kuffelcreek.com/new_release.htm


Now, can we get back to the topic in the original post?

Tango61

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#105961 - 11/11/08 07:04 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: thecook]
Heber Offline
member

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 245
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
That's an interesting perspective. I'm not sure whether I totally agree with it but it's certainly something to think about. I've gone the other way with my children (I have 5 kids ranging from 15 to 2 years old, all except the youngest backpack with me occasionally). I go very minimalist on their packs and I carry most of the gear. They usually only have their hammocks and their sleeping bags in their packs.

My questions/concerns with what you are saying are two-fold. I wish I could talk to a specialist in pediatric orthopedics.

1. Should kids carry a higher percentage of their weight than adults? My inclination is to say no because they are not scaled down adults, a higher percentage of their weight is organs as opposed to bones and muscle. So if anything I would think they should carry a lower percentage of their weight than I would.

2. Can you really transfer weight to a kids hips they way you do with an adult? As I look at my 6 and 10 year old and some of the younger scouts they seem to be built more like stick figures than like people. Their hips are not as wide compared to the rest of them. It sounds like your daughters hip belt worked well. That's not what seemed to be happening with the scouts I looked at. And I'm not sure it should. The hips develop their mass and strength comparatively late it seems to me. So my kid's packs are beltless or have a small belt that is just meant to keep the pack from flopping around.

Well I don't know the answer here. But it does appear that their is a variety of experience on the subject and more than one perspective.

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#105962 - 11/11/08 07:21 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: thecook]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
“I have to disagree with the premise that lighter is always better in a child's backpack.”

Lighter is always better with kids (or anyone) if it fits.
It sounds like her school bag had no hip belt.
The Jib weighs 2.9 lbs. (44 ci/oz efficiency). If you are patient, you will find packs for kids under 18oz. Last time I checked there was one here for $50 http://www.gossamergear.com/cgi-bin/gossamergear/garage_sale.html
The miniposa (196 ci/oz efficiency) or mariposa are comfortable packs. Some use it with the carbon rods. I do not, as I find it’s more comfortable just using closed cell foam for the frame.

-Barry

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#105963 - 11/11/08 07:26 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: Jimshaw]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Quote:
I also had a 50 blade knife with a spoon and fork on the sides.
I had one of those knifes/kitchen appliances. I wish I still had it for nostalgia. I think it weighed about a pound.
Jim, maybe you should become a professional scoutmaster. Really, someone should. Give those boys some real direction on survival,gear and skills. We don't need lost scouts trying to use cell phones to call there troop leader to find out where the camp is. Don't laugh, I witnessed this on a bike ride 5 mi from my house in an area that is more like a park.
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#105964 - 11/11/08 08:49 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: chaz]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
I just gotta say, the Scouts and Guides and Brownies and Cubs were very well turned out down at the Remembrance Day Ceremonies this morning. I'm a very proud and humbled dad today. Going for a hike now with Margaret and another family.

I checked the Canadian Scouting Field Manual. It suggests that children should be able to carry 25-30% their own weight, which is considerably higher than the guidelines of the medical profession at 10-15%. I think my guidelines based on height are best. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Everyone have a good day.

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#105965 - 11/11/08 03:41 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: chaz]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Quote:
I was looking at some of my old gear the other day trying to decide what to do with it. 12" cast iron fry pan. 2 burner coleman stove. 20 bottles of propane, Very warm very large sleeping bag (from walmart), cheap dome tent, 20+ diy alcy stoves, Mess kit . Axe, Large hunting knife, cooking utensils, set of 4 place setting.
Its all in a large rubbermaid container. I decided to save it. For what I don't know.
Got any good ideas? Well, besides the trash.


Stick it all in an Earthling Doodad Box and send it out <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Oh, don't forget to put Earthling on the box list <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
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#105966 - 11/11/08 04:05 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: Heber]
Cesar Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 217
Loc: El Paso, TX
Quote:
For my son who is 6 I bought the smaller version of this pack (the flash UL) for $25 which weighs 9 ounces and has a capacity of 1000 CI.
.


Do you know what the torso length is for the Flash UL or would you be able to measure yours if not. I'm looking for a small pack for my soon to be six year old daughter and there are no decent stores near me so she can try on. She wont be needing it till spring but would like to have a idea of what to get her.

I also found this
MEC Tenny Genie Daypack 25L pack at 22 oz's but I dont think you can get them in the states.

Going to measure her torso tonight.
_________________________
My gear is no where near lightweight

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#105967 - 11/11/08 06:01 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: Heber]
thecook Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 541
Loc: Minnesota
I agree kids should carry a lower percentage of their body weight. My point is that that is very difficult because they weigh so little. Your concern about lte development of the hips is an interesting point and one I've never thought about or heard mentioned before. Without more information on hip development though, I still prefer to put the weight there rather than compressing the back which is fragile enough even in adults, much less growing children.
_________________________
If I wouldn't eat it at home, why would I want to eat it on the trail?

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#105968 - 11/12/08 07:41 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: Cesar]
Heber Offline
member

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 245
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
Since there is no hip belt I don't think the torso length really matters like it would for a pack with a belt. But it would be annoying for a kid to have a pack that hangs too low. To get a feel for that look at this picture of my son. He's 6 and not tall for his age. Works great for him. (The CCF pad on top is too wide for him, kind of funny looking on the trail).

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/iSb4-eXy406sDiBbXJbK4w?authkey=ttn0FN_XZSs

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#105969 - 11/12/08 07:59 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: Heber]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
So what did he do wrong, throw a rock at a squirrel or something? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

That's not a bad looking setup, as long as its light. I cut Margaret's pad down and now that she will be carrying a pack I'm going to try and coil the pad inside like I do with mine. 20" wide might work for her, next to 28" for mine, with a little overlap. So that would make her pack 20" high. The tricky thing with converting ultralight adult daypacks is the shoulder straps tend to attach to the very top, so they hang too low. In theory, a 20"x50"x3/8" pad takes up 375ci, which isn't bad. It's the bedroll where things can get tricky. I think she will just carry a summer weight bedroll and I will provide and overquilt for the other seasons. Just a 2 pound wool blanket maybe. We have a 5'x5' wool blanket that is lightly woven and perfect I think, using the diagonal method. Very packable and versatile and works well under an overquilt. Jackets can get out of hand also unless you keep them light. I am going to try her keep a wool sweater on same as I do, and keep the rest of the clothes packable. I want to make her a rain poncho also, by just cutting one down with a nice hood.

I am converting this pack, 10oz, 1200ci, which you can get for $50 some places...
http://www.patagonia.com/web/us/product/...672&ws=

So I think I need to modify where the straps attach. I think its do-able.
I could just make one of course, but I think this pack is close enough.


Let me just add things up a bit, for a 48" tall child...
sneakers: 1 pound
socks, skin layers, middle layers, windshells, hats, mitts: 3 pounds
blue foam pad, wool bedroll, nylon throw, rain poncho/tarp, pegs, cord: 3 pounds
backpack: 0.75 pounds
water bottle, mug, spoon, map, compass, mug, tealight candle stove, lighter, knife, stuff: 0.75 pound
home-made hiking staff, made along the way: 1 pound
food for 2.5 days, water carried: 2.5 pounds
=============
12 pounds, total skin out

Not bad. That would be about 23% of my daughter current weight.
I still might carry some of that myself, keep her down below 10 pounds.

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#105970 - 11/12/08 08:09 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: Heber]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Quote:
To get a feel for that look at this picture of my son. He's 6 and not tall for his age. Works great for him. (The CCF pad on top is too wide for him, kind of funny looking on the trail).
Hope your son dosen't get hung up on narrow trails. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I have the same setup using an REI UL60. I first carried my pad, (a CSF ridgerest), on the outside of my pack but secured it verticaly. I cut about 2" from each end and trimmed the edges a bit. Now I roll it and place in in the pack and open it up, creating a tube,( a la Phat), that you can stuff everything into. It streamlines the setup nicely and eliminated the stuff sack. I don't know the length of your sons pack but just an idea you might consider. I wouldn't want him to get spun around and fall. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> But at least with that setup, if he lands on his back, he'll have cushion. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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#105971 - 11/12/08 08:44 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: chaz]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:
Quote:
To get a feel for that look at this picture of my son. He's 6 and not tall for his age. Works great for him. (The CCF pad on top is too wide for him, kind of funny looking on the trail).
Hope your son dosen't get hung up on narrow trails. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I have the same setup using an REI UL60. I first carried my pad, (a CSF ridgerest), on the outside of my pack but secured it verticaly. I cut about 2" from each end and trimmed the edges a bit. Now I roll it and place in in the pack and open it up, creating a tube,( a la Phat), that you can stuff everything into. It streamlines the setup nicely and eliminated the stuff sack. I don't know the length of your sons pack but just an idea you might consider. I wouldn't want him to get spun around and fall. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> But at least with that setup, if he lands on his back, he'll have cushion. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I like the blue foam pad on the inside also, which doubles as a pack frame. Some kids packs might need modification to get the shoulder straps lower to get the pack to ride higher. See above. Should be able to make a very light kids pack this way, or adults pack.

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#105972 - 11/12/08 01:00 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: BarryP]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
As to kids packs: buy the best you can afford, with the best suspension, fitted the best you can.

Frankly it steams me when I see adults wearing nice packs and their kids are suffering - be it from a misguided view that a kid can wear anything to that they don't want to spend the $$ on gear the kid will blow through in a year or two.

While I wear light packs and will suffer gladly when I overload them, I would not do that to my son. I was preached at many a time when Ford was young that the 2 lb 6 ounce Deuter Fox pack was "too heavy", yet that pack had an amazing suspension for kids.

Kid's bones and muscles are growing and need to be protected. After all these years I would not put a UL pack without suspension on a child's body. Basically you might as well put a bookpack on them at that point.

Cut the weight elsewhere in their gear - but not the suspension! Since Ford was 3 1/2 he has done at least 50 backpacking trips - At least 4,000 miles I know that. And every time I put him in ill fitting gear I heard non-stop griping. Too often kids won't tell you it hurts though!
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#105973 - 11/12/08 01:34 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: sarbar]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
“Cut the weight elsewhere in their gear - but not the suspension!”

Going UL doesn’t require that much suspension.

I have found that light packs that use closed cell foam provide admirable suspension. Plus kid’s stuff isn’t that heavy anyway. My daughter hasn’t carried more than 10lbs for the last 2 years (she’s now 12). That includes everything (like food, fuel, water).

Now she has tried it w/o the hip belt, but that was a lot of complaining!

-Barry

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#105974 - 11/12/08 07:41 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: BarryP]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:
“Cut the weight elsewhere in their gear - but not the suspension!”

Going UL doesn’t require that much suspension.

I have found that light packs that use closed cell foam provide admirable suspension. Plus kid’s stuff isn’t that heavy anyway. My daughter hasn’t carried more than 10lbs for the last 2 years (she’s now 12). That includes everything (like food, fuel, water).

Now she has tried it w/o the hip belt, but that was a lot of complaining!

-Barry
I agree with that. The coiled closed cell foam pad makes for excellent suspension, even when the pack is half full. It's important to get the shoulder straps and hip belt right, but they can still be very light and don't need to be padded as long as the load is light.

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#105975 - 11/12/08 08:15 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: JAK]
JAK Offline
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Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
That Deuter Fox is a great looking pack for most Scouts and Guides, if they really need to carry more weight than perhaps they should.
http://www.rei.com/product/725201

Price: $80
Seems like a very fair price for this pack.

Weight: 2 pounds 10 oz
Not bad, but still seems rather heavy for many kids that should carry less than 10 pounds of pack weight.

Volume: 1,850 cubic inches
I think that is a great volume for Scouts and Guides. Volume doesn't hurt as long as they learn to pack light.

Torso Length: 10 - 17 inches
That is quite the range, but I have to question whether a child with a 10-12" torso should be wearing this pack. Then again there might be some very short but very solid kids. I think the practical range might be 13-17" but I'm not exactly sure.

Fits waist/hips: 24 - 32 inches ????
This seems to be the most limiting factor, and perhaps also a better measure of a child's ability to bear enough weight to justify this pack. It's good that they list it. I'll have to check my 9 year old daughter. She is definitely tall enough for the torso length but I think her waist/hips are still a ways under 24".

I will definitely consider this pack based on Sarbars positive experience with it, but only once our child is older and able to carry more weight. She is 9, but still only 48" tall and 52 pounds. I still think a lighter pack is justified, even for larger children, as long as it fits them right and the suspension is stable. The method of using a blue foam pad coiled vertically works very well. Pack weight only needs to be proportional to the load it carries. Perhaps my biggest beef with this pack is that it looks too much like so many overbuilt and overweight adult packs, which sends the wrong message to most kids and parents I think. Generally speaking kids and most adults should be learning to go ultralight, or at least reasonably light, so I think we should be building better ultralight packs for kids. Scouts and Guides should be leading, not following. I think it will happen in time. Until then, I am happy to improvise.

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#105976 - 11/12/08 11:32 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: JAK]
OregonMouse Offline
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Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6372
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
What I would really like for a kid's pack is to get a good supportive pack (Deuter Fox or REI Comet or something of that sort), completely remove the pack bag (which is not only too heavy but also full of heavy straps and zippers, lots of pockets and all sorts of other decorative and unnecessary gewgaws) and install its harness and internal frame in an MLD kids' Prophet or a similar Dyneema pack bag. You'd then have a really supportive pack that would weigh about 1 1/2 lbs. Of course you'd have to spend a lot of money and time on it! But then the kid would have the combination of a really light pack but plenty of support. A 9-10 lb. load for most 8-9 year olds is a really heavy load. I believe in teaching a kid to take care of his/her possessions and not to drag his pack over rocks or throw it over a cliff, instead of wasting all that weight on a "bombproof" pack bag of really heavy nylon with what seem like a zillion extra straps and pockets. With some relatively minimal supervision, a plain Dyneema pack bag with mesh outside pockets should be just fine for kids. But it needs to be combined with a good frame, harness, hip belt and, preferably, load lifters. I agree with Sarbar that a kid does need some good structure to be able to carry weight. I just detest the way-to-heavy pack bag that goes with the supportive structure!

I got my oldest grandkid an REI Comet pack two years ago and did major surgery (more like butchery!) on it to remove as many of the gewgaws and zippers as possible. I was able to remove about 3/4 pound. It's still, IMHO, too heavy, but it's now just under 2 lbs.

My two older grandkids, Sissy and JP, who will be 7 and 9 (the younger, though, is as big as the older) will be using the small size Gossamer Gear Mariposas next year. The hip belt just barely fit last summer (I may have to put a little extra padding on the inside of it). The rest of the pack fit just fine and was comfortable for a 1-hour trial (per kid) with an 8-lb. load (all their personal gear--clothing, sleeping bags, pads, snacks, water). I won't know for sure just how well this will work out until we go backpacking next summer. If the Mariposas work out, the packs should last until they are ready for adult size packs. I tried one myself with a 15-lb load--with the optional stays and the stiff sit pad in the back, it's really comfortable and supportive, although a bit too narrow in the shoulders for me. Although they don't have load lifters, that doesn't appear to be a problem. If it becomes a problem, I'll put some in (or get someone to do it), which shouldn't be too hard. (The Mariposas will be officially presented to the kids at Christmas.)

A hip belt and load lifters are actually quite important for kids, even with a daypack. The #1 complaint with my grandson, before I got the butchered REI Comet, was that the straps were pulling down on the tops of his shoulders--this with a 5-lb. daypack, otherwise well-fitting but with no hip belt. One of the things I can still remember about my first backpacking trip at age 6 was how tired and sore my shoulders got with a 5-lb. load. It's also very hard to find a daypack that fits young children (age 4-8). Most book packs are far too large for the kindergarten through grades 2-3 set and hang down way below their buttocks. Granite Gear used to make a really neat young kids' daypack called the Sidekick, but it has been discontinued. It had stiff enough foam in its back to allow considerable weight transfer to the hipbelt to keep the straps from cutting into the tops of the shoulders. I got one on closeout for Sissy when she was 5. She carried 6 lbs. in it last summer. There's no room for the sleeping bag, though. She'll use the Mariposa next summer, and little brother "Bear" (just turned 4) will inherit the Sidekick. LL Bean sells packs sized for this age, but you'd have to add a hipbelt.

Individual kids really differ. Sissy (the granddaughter) is going to be given a little more weight than big brother JP next summer because she is stronger and a better hiker than he is. She is a far better athlete, which is unfortunate for him.


Edited by OregonMouse (11/12/08 11:36 PM)
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#105977 - 11/13/08 01:27 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: BarryP]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
Quote:
“Cut the weight elsewhere in their gear - but not the suspension!”

Going UL doesn’t require that much suspension.

I have found that light packs that use closed cell foam provide admirable suspension. Plus kid’s stuff isn’t that heavy anyway. My daughter hasn’t carried more than 10lbs for the last 2 years (she’s now 12). That includes everything (like food, fuel, water).

Now she has tried it w/o the hip belt, but that was a lot of complaining!

-Barry


Ford carries his food (he has his own Ursack) at about 2 lbs a day (I carry the rest). He eats constantly (he is 11, 5'4" and weighs in the low 90's). On a 3 day trip he carries a minimum of 6 lbs of food, his gear and his water. Even with his gear being light he will never have a UL pack due to his food. He carries around 16-18 lbs now. In the next year I am going to have him carry all of his food (I hump about a lb per day of his). Frankly, he will not be able to go under 3 lbs a day due to how hungry he is.
He recently had to move into an adult sleeping bag, adding more weight (but not much, I bought a light bag).
For him to carry 18 lbs in an unstructured bag would be painful - one reason why I got rid of his MS Seraph pack. He has no "padding" on his bones to make a pack comfortable. Currently he is using a Kelty Haiku pack, which is 3 1/2 lbs. But has enough padding for his bones.
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#105978 - 11/13/08 02:06 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: sarbar]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
“For him to carry 18 lbs in an unstructured bag would be painful - one reason why I got rid of his MS Seraph pack.”

The growing boy syndrome. I’ve only had 3 of those so far <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />.

It’s ironic you got rid of the MS Seraph pack. My family loves that pack. I prefer it over the Ghost (because my torso is smaller). I thought it to be extremely well structured up to 30lbs. But of course, the important question is, does it fit you? If it doesn’t, then something else must be done.

Of all my packs, the Ghost/Seraph-- I sweat the least on my back and it fits my body shape extremely well; and my family loves them (we have 3 MS packs).

If the Kelty you talk about is like this: http://www.mbstores.com/keha43infrpa.html then that looks like a lot more volume for his food <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-Barry

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#105979 - 11/13/08 02:28 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: sarbar]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:
Quote:
“Cut the weight elsewhere in their gear - but not the suspension!”

Going UL doesn’t require that much suspension.

I have found that light packs that use closed cell foam provide admirable suspension. Plus kid’s stuff isn’t that heavy anyway. My daughter hasn’t carried more than 10lbs for the last 2 years (she’s now 12). That includes everything (like food, fuel, water).

Now she has tried it w/o the hip belt, but that was a lot of complaining!

-Barry


Ford carries his food (he has his own Ursack) at about 2 lbs a day (I carry the rest). He eats constantly (he is 11, 5'4" and weighs in the low 90's). On a 3 day trip he carries a minimum of 6 lbs of food, his gear and his water. Even with his gear being light he will never have a UL pack due to his food. He carries around 16-18 lbs now. In the next year I am going to have him carry all of his food (I hump about a lb per day of his). Frankly, he will not be able to go under 3 lbs a day due to how hungry he is.
He recently had to move into an adult sleeping bag, adding more weight (but not much, I bought a light bag).
For him to carry 18 lbs in an unstructured bag would be painful - one reason why I got rid of his MS Seraph pack. He has no "padding" on his bones to make a pack comfortable. Currently he is using a Kelty Haiku pack, which is 3 1/2 lbs. But has enough padding for his bones.
I think in another year he's going to be carrying you on his shoulders. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Your information has been very helpful Sarbar. I've put alot of thought into this for Margaret but don't have the trail experience of you and/or Ford. I've taken your suspension thoughts to heart but still need to scale things make a bit for Margaret. She is 9, 4'1" and 52 pounds as of yesterday. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So she weighs about 55% of Ford, so perhaps might carry 9-10 pounds vs his 16-18. Using my height squared formula if I were to use that she is 77% his height, so that again works out to about 58% the load. I think its safe to say that neither of our kids are overweight but I like the height squared rule for most kids because it doesn't suggest that overweight kids can carry more. I also like it because I made it up. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think I need to scale it back though, based on your numbers for Ford. So here is my formula again, with some modifications. I will now call it the Formula Ford. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Formula Ford...

Max Skin Out Load [pounds] = Child's Height [feet] Squared.
Safe Pack Load = 2/3 Maxium Skin Out Load.

4' = 16 pounds maxium skin out, 10 pounds safe pack load.
5.3' = 28 pounds maxium skin out, 18 pounds safe pack load.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#105980 - 11/13/08 05:30 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: JAK]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
When he was 6-8 I kept his total pack weight down to 10 lbs or less. I did that by carrying most of his water and his food <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Some kids adapt better than others - Ford is a natural born hiker <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I got lucky with that!
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#105981 - 11/13/08 05:32 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: sarbar]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
I was thinking and laughing about a friends daughter - she is a year older than Ford. When we all hike together she bats her eyes at Ford till by the end of the hike he has her poles and has eaten most of his tasty snack food.

Ya know, I keep telling him to be wary of the ladies. His reply was "But if I didn't do it she would be sad". Uh-huh......... lol!
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#105982 - 11/13/08 05:56 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: sarbar]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
That's pretty funny. Maybe he's craftier than you think though. I've always thought in hindsite I would have played my cards a little different, been more of a gentleman, nudge nudge, wink wink.

I'll keep working on my Formula Ford. I want to keep is as simple as Weight[pounds] = Height[feet] Squared, but that is a bit heavy. So that might be skin out weight, to allow for winter clothing, and the maximum pack weight might be a fraction of that. Perhaps 2/3 for a well seasoned little brute (I mean lady or gentleman that you need to slow down a little); 1/2 for the average child until you break them in (I mean introduce them to the joys of pack bearing); and 1/3 if it is a typical school pack without a hip belt.

So for Ford...
64" = 5.333 feet ---> 5.333 x 5.333 x 2/3 = 19 pounds pack weight

and for Margaret...
48 3/4" = 4.0625 feet --> 4.0625 x 4.0625 x 1/2 = 8 pounds pack weight

and for a 4'6" child with a pack without a hip belt...
54" = 4.5 feet --> 4.5 x 4.5 x 1/3 = 6.25 pounds pack weight.

Perhaps it makes sense to increase the fudge factor gradually from 1/3 to 1/2 up to 2/3 over successive hikes, in order to have time to get the child used to carrying that weight over distance, and to have time to prove the fit and stability of the pack also. I think I'll start Margaret at 4 pounds and work up. On a very good day she does 20km with no complaints and I don't want to change that.

Have you gotten Ford onto cross country skis or snow shoes?
That stuff seems poorly made in kid sizes also, but he is fair sized now.

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#105983 - 11/13/08 06:07 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: sarbar]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
Quote:
Ford is a natural born hiker I got lucky with that!
You really did get lucky... mine hates hiking, but LOVES Mtn. Biking... not my preferred sport, but one I might start to like if it means we have an activity together. I did a ton of hiking with Daniel when he was small enough to put in a pack, hoping he'd pick up a love of hiking, but he thinks it is way too slow. Sigh. Someday he'll probably come around, but I'm thinking it might be a while.

MNS
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#105984 - 11/13/08 06:16 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: midnightsun03]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
If I get a few more good long hikes out of her before she tweens out on me I'll be thrilled. She's a natural born hiker though. I'm pretty sure she will take it up again later if she stops going, though perhaps not with me. That's cool I guess.

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#105985 - 11/13/08 07:54 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: JAK]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
Snowshoes: I wasted two years with the kids Atlas's ones. He broke 2 pairs (they were the rigid yellow ones). 3rd warranty pair they gave me the red ones that were soft fabric - like adult ones. Well, I ended up selling them as new. At that point a friend of mine who worked for MSR went dumpster diving and found me a brand new, with tags on, pair of MSR Denali Tyker snowshoes (http://www.msrgear.com/snowshoes/tyker.asp) in it. (Yes - they used to just throw away gear if no one wanted it!) He gifted them to Ford. They worked great. Last year though I spent the money on a pair of adult ones (when he hit a size 8 men's shoe). He has MSR Denali Evos (http://www.msrgear.com/snowshoes/denalievo.asp) which are a bit narrower than standard Denali's. (Same as mine) I did not get him tails though since he is so light.

With kids I would be very careful with snow shoes and the crampons. What sucks is that many kids ones don't have enough traction, but adult versions have too much - and a kid tumbling in them could puncture a leg with some brands.

Ford took to snowshoeing like he took to hiking <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Snowshoeing at Rainier a couple years ago (he is in the middle):


The funny thing is....he cannot ride a bike! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
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#105986 - 11/13/08 08:41 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: sarbar]
phat Offline
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Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:

Ya know, I keep telling him to be wary of the ladies. His reply was "But if I didn't do it she would be sad". Uh-huh......... lol!


"Stay away from those kid - they ain't nothing but trouble" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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#105987 - 11/14/08 10:34 AM Re: Kids packs [Re: phat]
Cesar Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 217
Loc: El Paso, TX
Quote:
"Stay away from those kid - they ain't nothing but trouble" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
[color:"blue"]Baloo! [/color] I think your thread has been high jacked. um sorry <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

btw: I used to love that movie. Wore the VHS tape out from playing it so much.
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#105988 - 11/14/08 12:05 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: Cesar]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
Quote:
Quote:
"Stay away from those kid - they ain't nothing but trouble" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
[color:"blue"]Baloo! [/color] I think your thread has been high jacked. um sorry <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

btw: I used to love that movie. Wore the VHS tape out from playing it so much.


Lol...and that girl is a red head too! Trouble will be her name! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Love that movie as well.....

We hijack threads badly <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
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#105989 - 11/14/08 04:38 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: sarbar]
Folkalist Offline
member

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 374
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
Quote:
We hijack threads badly


Actually, I think all y'all do a rather fine job of hijacking threads! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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#105990 - 11/16/08 06:27 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: phat]
skinewmexico Offline
member

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 81
Pack or Sleeping bag. I showed our troop the "Lighten Up" DVD from Gossamer Gear, and it really got everyone (parents included) thinking.

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#105991 - 11/17/08 08:43 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: skinewmexico]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Great idea showing the video. I think most parents want whats best for their little trooper but many of them don't have a clue. I think that a lot of dads would think twice about the gear they buy if they got to experience it first hand. Put a pack on dad with about 25 or 30 pounds and have them walk around the block. then they would surley change their way of thinking.
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#105992 - 11/25/08 05:43 PM Heavy Packs [Re: sarbar]
frediver Offline
member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 114
The comment on heavy packs was right on.
But:
The Kelty at 4lb. 9 oz. is really not to bad when you consider
Capacity Vs. Weight Vs. what is offered.
Personally I look for a pack at or below 4 pounds and those are few and
far between, many of the better packs currently weight in at 5-6+pounds.
The choice is between somewhat delicate UL packs
or Armageddon Proof ( I hate the B.P. tag) packs that use 15% of
your total load capacity.
I sure would like to find a nice H.D. pack of 70lt. capacity
that did weigh under 4 pounds, not many out there.
If you have any recomendations please list them here, I'm shopping.
Thanks

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#105993 - 11/25/08 06:46 PM Re: Heavy Packs [Re: frediver]
Heber Offline
member

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 245
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
Have you considered the ULA catalyst? I don't own one but everyone who owns one swears by them as far as I can tell. They are very popular among thru hikers and they are made of pretty tough stuff apparently. It's 75 liters for under 3 pounds (43 ounces). You were only hoping to get under 4 pounds. I think that ought to be easy for only 70 liter capacity. (That's why I have so little patience for these Kelty packs that have only 3000 cubic inches for over 4 and a half pounds.)

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#105994 - 11/26/08 06:11 AM Re: Heavy Packs [Re: frediver]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:

I sure would like to find a nice H.D. pack of 70lt. capacity
that did weigh under 4 pounds, not many out there.
If you have any recomendations please list them here, I'm shopping.
Thanks


Just wait, I am sure Jimshaw will give you one. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#105995 - 11/26/08 06:49 AM Re: Heavy Packs [Re: finallyME]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
The Go-Lite Pinnacle is 72 litres and weighs 0.78 pounds.

I make do with the 48 litre Jam2, even in winter, but I think the Pinnacle would be a great pack for the extra volume needed in winter. I wouldn't carry bricks in it, or swing it off a cliff, but for up to 30-40 pounds at the start of a long trip, yeah. Easy.

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#105996 - 11/26/08 06:06 PM Re: Heavy Packs [Re: finallyME]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Finally me, free driver

OK <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Buy an old Kelty spectra pack on ebay. Mine is 6500 cubic inches and depending on modular attachments, weighs between 29 oz and maybe 56 with everything including side pockets and shovel attachments. Look for a white phantom of white cloud. I've used then for 20 years now and there are many really super things. Like you don't have to carry the weight of a summit pack, it is a summit pack, and it can hold anything you want to take to the summit. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#105997 - 12/03/08 11:34 AM Re: Heavy Packs [Re: Jimshaw]
CCH Offline
member

Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 124
Loc: Colorado
In the biggest waste for newbies department, I'd say buying that swell titanium cookset while lugging a four pound sleeping bag and six and a half pound tent. Weight reduction has diminishing returns for the dollar at a certain point and if you don't have the bulk of your weight down to begin with, saving a half ounce or an ounce doesn't do much good.

On the hijack topic, I am extremely frustrated with scouts and backpacking. We live in Colorado and my son is in a troop that does a lot of backpacking in fairly rugged country/high altitudes. Most of the troop is extremely poorly equipped and carrying much more weight than they should. For the little guys, this makes for a particularly tough time with the getting back in part of the trip.The smallest kid in the troop (about 65 lbs.) has an adult pack with NO adjustment other than the waistbelt which won't tighten up enough for him. For the older guys I've passed on Craigslist deals for decent packs at low cost. I can't really recommend much that is truly lightweight because they end up carrying so much for Philmont, the problem being that they don't have the lightweight equipment to make a lightweight pack work.If the parents aren't into it, they don't get as it really helps to have lugged your own load over hill and dale to appreciate doing it right. There is also that fear of the kid outgrowing the equipment quickly but if you buy used and sell it to the next kids coming up, there is little expense at all. Just had to vent.

Oh there is one decent thing from BSA stores, the little fire steel. It is light, cheap and works. Now about those quality knives awarded for popcorn sales that won't close without the whole troop helping out...

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#105998 - 12/03/08 07:25 PM Re: Heavy Packs [Re: CCH]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
Ithe problem being that they don't have the lightweight equipment to make a lightweight pack work.If the parents aren't into it, they don't get as it really helps to have lugged your own load over hill and dale to appreciate doing it right. There is also that fear of the kid outgrowing the equipment quickly but if you buy used and sell it to the next kids coming up, there is little expense at all. Just had to vent.


To truly go super ultra light, you need to spend some dough. to just be lightweight, I'm convinced it's cheaper if you actually go through a basic semi light list that any kid could
use.

let's try - assuming above freezing type weather - weekender type trips.

alcohol stove (spend 30 minutes making one from discarded cans... ) $ 0.00
Wal mart grease pot or AGG pot $10.00
Plastic spoon 0.00
Pop bottle for alcohol 0.00
2x 1litre pop bottles for water 0.00
aquamira/pristine 15.00
4 garbage bags (stuff sacks, waterproofing, etc.) 0.00
Lighter 1.00
plastic cup 1.00
reasonable first aid kit $10.00
Pocket knife $5.00
headlamp (heck, Petzl E-light!) $25.00
Sleeping Bag or Quilt (I can buy an REI kilo flash 40 for $90 right now) $100.00
2 sets liner socks (poly) $15.00
2 sets merino wool hikers $25.00
blue foam pad $10.00
Good Set of Kids Running Shoes [2] They've already got them
Backpack (GG virga use blue pad for frame) $100.00
clothing[1] $25.00

[1] - i'm assuming like many kids. half their clothing is already synthetic. Find their favorite pair of athletic pants and send them with them. the $25 for clothing is to be spent at the thrift store or wal-mart rounding out what they don't have with synthetics. I'm gonna assume they take a set of long johns to sleep in, a fleece jacket, nylon windbreaker and a cheap light rain poncho such can be had at wal mart for a couple of bucks. easy to get at
the thrift store. long johns might have to be purchased.

[2] any kid will hike fine in their day to day runners. - yes you probably shouldn't take them boulder hopping down a talus slope in them, but get real - it'll work fine for starter hikes with quick drying socks.

There's a $340 start - if that' rich for your blood, substitute the $25 wal-mart snugpack style ripoff sleeping bag and put in an extra fleece to sleep in, and buy a walmart frameless ruck for $25, and you're down to $190. use poly dress socks and wool
socks from the thrift store and nock off another $35 so you are down to $155.

For shelter, lots of options. maybe a tarptent style beast, maybe shared with another
scout, or maybe a hennesey hammock, or six moon designs wild oasis - lets' say between $80 and $175 bucks. You can get more creative here to save money of course.

So that's $500 for the "cadilac" end with a hennesey and gear that'll last, or $235
for the cheaper stuff with 80 bucks toward a share of a shared shelter or he/she learns to tarp it. - if the troop has shared tents they may not need that.

What does the kid need to learn?
1) how to use the alky stove, and cook and eat FBC style.
2) How to use their shelter, whatever it is
3) how to hike in socks/clothes that can get moist, and put on dry ones to sleep in at night, change back next day when moving.
4) how to use aquamira/pristine for water.
5) How to put one foot in front of the other without excessive snivelling.

I mean come on folks. I see those kind of prices for just an overpriced heavy *backpack*,
nevermind what an Xbox and a couple of games costs.


Edited by phat (12/03/08 09:15 PM)

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#105999 - 12/03/08 08:17 PM Re: Heavy Packs [Re: phat]
Tango61 Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 931
Loc: East Texas Piney Woods

Good list Phat! But for some kids this is still somewhat out of their budget. HOWEVER, that is what fundraisers are for (e.g. selling popcorn is the usual means of raising funds)! And gear can be built up over 1-2 years. Most of our Scouts don't start backpacking until they reach 1st Class which usually takes about 1 yr. Of course, living in Texas our opportunities to backpack are limited. Most outings are camping with some hiking planned.

FWIW, my son hiked 70 miles at Philmont this past summer using a Jansport Scout external frame pack. Yes, it is heavier than others we have but he likes it and it fits and it's what he is comfortable with. He's had it for 3+ years now and it has expanded with him. It's bomb proof which also helps. We did modify it with better shoulder straps and hip belt from the Jansport Carson. Jansport Scouts can be picked up for around $60 on sale.
We were able to keep his pack weight to 24 lbs including crew gear (but without food and water) and he weighed around 138 lbs at 5'8".

You could swap out a the Petzl with a Rayovac $14 headlamp, the liner socks with cheap nylon dress socks $6, and the wool merino socks with Thorlo's ( I know, some people hate them) $16 (2 pair). So, there's about $50-$60 savings (using the Jansport rather than the Virga). I would also encourage new Scouts to borrow from older Scouts whenever possible. I have 3 packs that I typically loan out.

We've had the issue with kids being so skinny that the hipbelt won't fit. That's when I build up the belt with pieces of dense foam (e.g. blue foam padding) and duck tape.

Tango

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#106000 - 12/03/08 08:59 PM Re: Heavy Packs [Re: Tango61]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:


FWIW, my son hiked 70 miles at Philmont this past summer using a Jansport Scout external frame pack. Yes, it is heavier than others we have but he likes it and it fits and it's what he is comfortable with. He's had it for 3+ years now and it has expanded with him. It's bomb proof which also helps. We did modify it with better shoulder straps and hip belt from the Jansport Carson. Jansport Scouts can be picked up for around $60 on sale.
We were able to keep his pack weight to 24 lbs including crew gear (but without food and water) and he weighed around 138 lbs at 5'8".


Yeah, well I picked "name brand" (sic) options for the big three, just to prove a point - as I mentioned if you carefully pick the cheaper stuff (you really don't need the virga - a regular
wal-mart framless big bag does just *fine* on a kid *if it fits ok and you keep the weight low* ) and can be definately on the lower end of the price range I fully expect if you were careful with what's above and kept the pack frameless and under 2 pounds you'd be looking at a kid outfitted for the weekend with a litre of water and food in their pack for about 18-20 pounds or a bit less. Why? heck, it's pretty much what I carry and I do the same - and my clothes are a lot bigger! Of course they'd need a little instruction and practice first but that goes for the heavy stuff too!

I think you can definately keep kids on a serious budget for decent weekend backpacking
trips without blowing the bank, and that sticking to a lightweight (not ULTRALIGHT) sort of list helps keep it that way - becuse you just don't take so much useless or overbuilt or expensive crap.
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#106001 - 12/04/08 02:00 AM Re: Heavy Packs [Re: phat]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
I agree that cheap light stuff tends to be both cheap and light. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
You gotta look around for it sometimes, but its highly functional.

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#106002 - 12/04/08 10:38 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: phat]
hikerFedEx Offline


Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 19
Loc: United States
IMHO (FOR ME and my style of hikes) just about any multi-function (GERBER, SOG, LEATHERMAN) tool, regardless of whether steel, stainless, aluminum, titanium or how tiny.

I have no equipment made with screws, I don't plan to scale fish, gut a deer, cut razor wire, or most other functions. they sound great - until you really think "When WOULD I have to turn a screw or remove a bolt, etc.?"

I LOVE them for home and work use. Very practical, strong, always handy, always prepared. Just not for SUL. It flies in the face of leave it home if you don't need it. (for me)

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#106003 - 12/04/08 01:49 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: hikerFedEx]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:
IMHO (FOR ME and my style of hikes) just about any multi-function (GERBER, SOG, LEATHERMAN) tool, regardless of whether steel, stainless, aluminum, titanium or how tiny.

I have no equipment made with screws, I don't plan to scale fish, gut a deer, cut razor wire, or most other functions. they sound great - until you really think "When WOULD I have to turn a screw or remove a bolt, etc.?"

I LOVE them for home and work use. Very practical, strong, always handy, always prepared. Just not for SUL. It flies in the face of leave it home if you don't need it. (for me)
I gotta agree with you on that. For a small knife I carry one of these. It's cheap and light and handy. I wouldn't do any serious bushcraft with it, but it does have a nice locking blade...

http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detai...D=1228427308337

Only paid $10 for it though. That makes it even better.

I carry a 1 pound hatchet in winter. Don't use it much, but its handy, and would be very handy if it got really cold. I don't have an extra pound of 800 fill down for my sleeping bag in case it hits -20F or -30F, but I do have 1 pound of long wool underwear and a 1 pound hatchet. I carry a few nails with it as it doubles as a hammer and a dozen small nails are more versatile than 3 or 4 tent pegs. Some cheap twine also, and some snare wire. Cheap twine is a good thing if you want to do some lashing for the fun of it and leave it behind. My regular tarp line is the same stuff I use for my shoelaces though. Most trips is doesn't get anywhere near -20F, but the hatchet is still fun to carry, and the long wool underwear make a good pillow. I might make a pillow case for them.

Am I way off topic or what?

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#106004 - 12/04/08 01:52 PM Re: Anti-Light - Flip side of heavy scout pack [Re: Heber]
chuck Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 83
Heber - dead on regarding scout packs. On the flip side, when I was outfitting my son earlier this year we focused on lightweight gear since I was confident he knew how to take care of it and protect it, the two biggest weight savers being the MB UL SS #2 and Warmlite 2R tent (someone usually tents with him).

However, when it came to his backpack and his cookset he HAD to have the very heavy official BSA cook set (12.5 oz - yikes!) instead of the lightweight gear I was pushing and he HAD to have the Yukon 2900 c.i. external frame pack instead of much lighter and better one's I suggested. The Yukon with all it's bells and whistles sure is fancy!

My son's selections won out for two very good reasons - he thinks they are cool and his friends have them! Being 12 he wants to fit in. He has plenty of time to replace pack and cookset once his trips get longer and weight starts becoming an issue.

Right now I want him to enjoy his gear, feel good about it, and just get out there and use it. With the bag and tent selection it still keeps his pack volume and weight to very reasonable level.

Chuck

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#106005 - 12/04/08 02:07 PM Re: Anti-Light - Flip side of heavy scout pack [Re: chuck]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
He is probably also big enough at 12 to carry it now. Light weight is really only a serious consideration for older folks that are overweight, like myself, and for younger folks like my daughter that are still only 50 pounds soaking wet. When I way 20 something I got a huge pack, and filled that sucker up, and didn't actually learn how crazy that was until I gained 20 years and 60 pounds and tried it again. Still alot of young scouts and guides at 12 that could do with much much lighter gear. The whole troop would be better off and could do more hiking and less car camping. They would also learn sooner what is right and what ain't, not in the moral sense, just in the true sense, which is a big part of what scouting is about. Why get it wrong when they should be learning it right?

Anyhow my daughter insists on make two hiking sticks now ever since she saw this fellow with them. I tried to explain, then I thought better of it. So I got this knife and now we are going to make ourselves some hiking staffs, and she can make two if that's really what she prefers.

Chuck, you are right that they need to be able to learn for themselves.
It really is the only way. We're mostly along just to share in the fun, as long as we still can. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#106006 - 12/04/08 04:08 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: JAK]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
I also have to agree with loosing the multitool. I'm a big fan of Gerber and have a knife and multitool made by them. After not needing the multitool, I quit using it and just carried the knife. Now my gerber knife has seen better days so I replaced it with this.http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=product.detail&productid=3124
The blade is much thinner and one of the sharpest knives I have ever used. I slightly knicked the blade doing something stupid with it but was able to bring it back on my diamond hone. It's very close to the sharpness of a single edge razor blade. One downside. It doesn't have a clip so it has to be in a secure pocket. I like the blade so much that I plan to buy a similar frame knife.
And to bring up an old thread....... Very Very Sharp is Best! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Enjoy your next trip...

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#106007 - 12/04/08 04:36 PM Re: Anti-Light - Flip side of heavy scout pack [Re: JAK]
chuck Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 83
Jak, "Light weight is really only a serious consideration for older folks " - I never thought about weight in my 20's. I got interested in lightweight gear in my 30's when I started hiking with my wife and son and it soon became apparent I was gong to be the family sherpa. Either I lighten the gear or I was destined to struggle like an overburdened mule traversing the North GA up and downs.

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#106008 - 12/04/08 04:55 PM Re: Anti-Light - Flip side of heavy scout pack [Re: chuck]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:
Jak, "Light weight is really only a serious consideration for older folks " - I never thought about weight in my 20's. I got interested in lightweight gear in my 30's when I started hiking with my wife and son and it soon became apparent I was gong to be the family sherpa. Either I lighten the gear or I was destined to struggle like an overburdened mule traversing the North GA up and downs.
lol

My daughters always been a great hiker but she still likes me to carry her now and then, and I was kind of hoping it might be like the man that lifts the bull calf each day. Well she is still only 50 pounds, but even with a 10 pound daypack that can add up. I tried lifting her up on a few hills on the way back on the last hike to get home a bit quicker. That didn't work. If I lost 60 pounds, maybe. Now I gotta see if I can lose some weight faster than she's gaining it.

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#106009 - 12/04/08 05:39 PM Re: Anti-Light - Flip side of heavy scout pack [Re: JAK]
chuck Offline
member

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 83
Jak, no matter what my family starts carrying I end up carrying most of.....

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#106010 - 12/04/08 07:35 PM Re: Anti-Light - Flip side of heavy scout pack [Re: chuck]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
I think we need a new metric for gear weight comparisons.

TFSOW = Total Family Skin Out Weight

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#106011 - 12/05/08 07:01 AM Re: Heavy Packs [Re: phat]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:
Quote:
Ithe problem being that they don't have the lightweight equipment to make a lightweight pack work.If the parents aren't into it, they don't get as it really helps to have lugged your own load over hill and dale to appreciate doing it right. There is also that fear of the kid outgrowing the equipment quickly but if you buy used and sell it to the next kids coming up, there is little expense at all. Just had to vent.


To truly go super ultra light, you need to spend some dough. to just be lightweight, I'm convinced it's cheaper if you actually go through a basic semi light list that any kid could
use.

let's try - assuming above freezing type weather - weekender type trips.

alcohol stove (spend 30 minutes making one from discarded cans... ) $ 0.00
Wal mart grease pot or AGG pot $10.00
Plastic spoon 0.00
Pop bottle for alcohol 0.00
2x 1litre pop bottles for water 0.00
aquamira/pristine 15.00
4 garbage bags (stuff sacks, waterproofing, etc.) 0.00
Lighter 1.00
plastic cup 1.00
reasonable first aid kit $10.00
Pocket knife $5.00
headlamp (heck, Petzl E-light!) $25.00
Sleeping Bag or Quilt (I can buy an REI kilo flash 40 for $90 right now) $100.00
2 sets liner socks (poly) $15.00
2 sets merino wool hikers $25.00
blue foam pad $10.00
Good Set of Kids Running Shoes [2] They've already got them
Backpack (GG virga use blue pad for frame) $100.00
clothing[1] $25.00

[1] - i'm assuming like many kids. half their clothing is already synthetic. Find their favorite pair of athletic pants and send them with them. the $25 for clothing is to be spent at the thrift store or wal-mart rounding out what they don't have with synthetics. I'm gonna assume they take a set of long johns to sleep in, a fleece jacket, nylon windbreaker and a cheap light rain poncho such can be had at wal mart for a couple of bucks. easy to get at
the thrift store. long johns might have to be purchased.

[2] any kid will hike fine in their day to day runners. - yes you probably shouldn't take them boulder hopping down a talus slope in them, but get real - it'll work fine for starter hikes with quick drying socks.

There's a $340 start - if that' rich for your blood, substitute the $25 wal-mart snugpack style ripoff sleeping bag and put in an extra fleece to sleep in, and buy a walmart frameless ruck for $25, and you're down to $190. use poly dress socks and wool
socks from the thrift store and nock off another $35 so you are down to $155.

For shelter, lots of options. maybe a tarptent style beast, maybe shared with another
scout, or maybe a hennesey hammock, or six moon designs wild oasis - lets' say between $80 and $175 bucks. You can get more creative here to save money of course.

So that's $500 for the "cadilac" end with a hennesey and gear that'll last, or $235
for the cheaper stuff with 80 bucks toward a share of a shared shelter or he/she learns to tarp it. - if the troop has shared tents they may not need that.

What does the kid need to learn?
1) how to use the alky stove, and cook and eat FBC style.
2) How to use their shelter, whatever it is
3) how to hike in socks/clothes that can get moist, and put on dry ones to sleep in at night, change back next day when moving.
4) how to use aquamira/pristine for water.
5) How to put one foot in front of the other without excessive snivelling.

I mean come on folks. I see those kind of prices for just an overpriced heavy *backpack*,
nevermind what an Xbox and a couple of games costs.


Maybe I need to start a post with a challenge for a 20lb $200 lightweight gear list.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#106012 - 12/05/08 02:41 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: phat]
Bansko Offline
member

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 110
Loc: Wyoming
I remember carrying one of those monstrous folding knives with the spoon, fork, etc. as a Boy Scout. Obviously, a lot of you remember that. My nomination is the half gallon blanket covered canteen though, with the galvanized steel in the middle. I think you can still buy them.

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#108143 - 12/21/08 01:45 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: phat]
Keith Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 1664
Loc: Michigan's Upper Peninsula
I'll have to nominate most of the people I saw at the Backcountry Office when I was at the Grand Canyon last January. They have a scale where you can hang your pack on a hook and as I was waiting for my number in line to come up, I was amazed at all the people getting 50lb and more on their packs -- and some of them were sort of bragging, like it was a proof of manhood or something.

I felt that I wasn't really lightweight with about 23lb pack weight for 4/day-3/night.

But I was perhaps most astonished when I went down and was camping at Bright Angel campground. My next door neighbors were a man and woman in perhaps their 40s or 50s. They had -- not one, but TWO -- propane stoves of the 1# cylider variety (that 1# of propane in a heavy metal cylindar plus the stove attachment). Must be at least 4# each!
_________________________
Human Resources Memo: Floggings will continue until morale improves.

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#108152 - 12/21/08 04:40 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: Keith]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

4 lbs each is heavy, but think about how many people you've
seen on the trail with say, a whisperlite with a full litre bottle of white gas - that's 3 to 3.5 lbs there easily!

_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#108196 - 12/22/08 07:38 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: Keith]
coyotemaster Offline
member

Registered: 03/07/06
Posts: 294
Loc: Arizona
Quote:
But I was perhaps most astonished when I went down and was camping at Bright Angel campground. My next door neighbors were a man and woman in perhaps their 40s or 50s. They had -- not one, but TWO -- propane stoves of the 1# cylider variety (that 1# of propane in a heavy metal cylindar plus the stove attachment). Must be at least 4# each!


They hired the mule train to carry the load.


Edited by coyotemaster (12/22/08 07:40 PM)

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#108244 - 12/23/08 08:39 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: coyotemaster]
Keith Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 1664
Loc: Michigan's Upper Peninsula
Originally Posted By coyotemaster
Quote:
But I was perhaps most astonished when I went down and was camping at Bright Angel campground. My next door neighbors were a man and woman in perhaps their 40s or 50s. They had -- not one, but TWO -- propane stoves of the 1# cylider variety (that 1# of propane in a heavy metal cylindar plus the stove attachment). Must be at least 4# each!


They hired the mule train to carry the load.


Nope. They were backpackers!
_________________________
Human Resources Memo: Floggings will continue until morale improves.

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#108289 - 12/25/08 10:23 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: finallyME]
atraildreamer Offline
member

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 73
Loc: RI
Originally Posted By finallyME
So, for number 2 and 6, I nominate the "survival knife". You know the kind, less than 20 bucks, has a hollow handle with stuff in it, sometimes accompanied by the words "special forces", Stainless Steel blade. Many newbies take it "just in case" and think it is essential. The fact that the blade is crap (too dull to do anything, and crappy steel so it won't hold an edge), the saw on the blade doesn't work, the handle is barely attached and falls off easily, will eventually show itself when it is needed and can't be used. We won't talk about the "survival" stuff inside. Some is good, and some not, but you could make your own little kit that works better and weighs a few pounds less.


I bought one of these years ago at a flea market for $4. We called it a "Rambo Knife" (Stallone was in his prime then!eek ) Fun to look at, and would scare the crap out of burglar if I had to defend myself, but I wouldn't trust it for long-term survival use for the above-stated reasons. (But, the compass in the end of the handle is kind of neat! grin


Edited by atraildreamer (12/25/08 10:24 AM)

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#108380 - 12/27/08 08:07 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: atraildreamer]
Cesar Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 217
Loc: El Paso, TX
Back to the hijacked section of this thread : )
Has anyone seen these packs? Deuter Climber Seems like a decent option for little torsos at 1 lb. 12 oz. Trim off a few loops on top and bottom and if possible take off the top and it can probably be closer to 1lb then 2lbs


Edited by Cesar (12/27/08 08:08 PM)
_________________________
My gear is no where near lightweight

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#108488 - 12/30/08 10:26 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: finallyME]
jpanderson80 Offline
member

Registered: 07/28/06
Posts: 292
Loc: Memphis, TN
Originally Posted By finallyME
I'll have to think about specifics, but if you look at a BSA store, it is full of these things. The BSA store is designed for overprotective parents who never go camping and only buy name brand stuff.


I'm laughing so hard at this... It is true. The entire store fits into the "anti-light" category.
_________________________
I always forget and make it more complicated than it needs to be...it's just walking.

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#109691 - 01/20/09 11:23 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: wandering_daisy]
Dhaval Momaya Offline
newbie

Registered: 01/16/09
Posts: 2
Loc: India
Only galvanized aluminium is toxic.

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#109692 - 01/20/09 11:25 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: wandering_daisy]
Dhaval Momaya Offline
newbie

Registered: 01/16/09
Posts: 2
Loc: India
Originally Posted By wandering_daisy
I have a titanum cup - and love it! I also really like my titanium cookset. To me it is worth every dollar. I do not use aluminum cookware AT ALL. Ingestion of aluminim may be linked to Alheizmers.

I actually cook - not just boil water. In the past when I used aluminum, I felt they burned food more easily.

Now, to put it in perspective, these items were given to me as gifts. I always put the expensive UL gear on my Christmas list!


Only galvanized aluminium is toxic.

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#109868 - 01/22/09 03:21 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: midnightsun03]
Rushthezeppelin Offline
newbie

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 5
Loc: Tempe, AZ, USA
Originally Posted By midnightsun03
Absolutely... by far my favorite pan in the kitchen is my cast iron. Makes the best biscuits and cornbread, is the original "non-stick" pan as long as it is seasoned correctly, and is infinitely durable. I had quite the collection of cast iron that I left with my ex, but did finally get my original pan back, which I've had since I was 21. Needless to say, I've gone through many sets of pots and pans since then, but the cast iron is still going strong.

MNS


Not only all that stuff.....but it also puts a bit of extra iron into your diet : D

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