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#105957 - 11/10/08 07:27 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: Heber]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Heber,
I was a scout. When we went to scout camp for a week we were given a list of gear written by the same idiot responsible for the "ten esentials". So Every other kid in my troop had a medium sized canvas pack whereas I had my fathers huge suitcase - no pack - because it was required for all the extra clothes - clean underwear, etc, that my mother packed and insisted that I take. It never got opened once on the entire trip - I took everything home clean but the clothes I had on when I left! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ya need a 5 pound sleeping bag with the little roll up sack on the end that sets up as a canopy to keep the rain offn yer face, and an 8 pound airmattress with a built in foot pump. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Whats a tent footprint? I don't think I've ever owned one of them things. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Oh yes, I also had a 50 blade knife with a spoon and fork on the sides.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#105958 - 11/10/08 07:37 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: thecook]
alanwenker Offline
member

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 812
The number of scout troops that ever overnight backpack is really quite small, the vast bulk of troops only ever car camp. Therefore leaders never acquire the experience and knowledge of going light and can't pass it on to the kids. When troops do take 'The Backpacking Trip' packs tend to be heavy from a poor selection of gear along with bringing far too much stuff.

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#105959 - 11/10/08 07:38 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: Jimshaw]
alanwenker Offline
member

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 812
Got to love those knives.

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#105960 - 11/10/08 08:13 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: thecook]
Tango61 Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 931
Loc: East Texas Piney Woods
Quote:
And the leaders at National are even more clueless.


The "leaders at National" have a lot of different needs to consider and to balance. They have to develop a program to meet the needs of a wide variety of conditions.

So, it is up to us "knowledgeable" light weight backpackers to train others. We have to balance the long term durability of equipment to the attitude/aptitude of young Scouts.



Quote:
Standard equipment list given to parents. No mention of weight limits.
http://www.scouts.ca/media/documents/Equipmentlist.doc


I think if you cross reference this list against several of the equipment lists on this board, you will find many similarities. We have to educate new backpackers that you don't have to take everything on this list!


alanwenker - you are right on with your comments (ditto my comments from above).

We discourage our parents from rushing out and spending a lot of money on gear. We provide them a list and it doesn't include a backpack. We encourage them to use what they have or borrow from others (e.g. older Scouts with left over gear). We only take 1-2 short backpacking trips a year (less than 10 miles) and those don't happen until late fall or early spring. By then, the parents have a good idea if their child is going to stick it out. At that time, we start having meetings where we discuss backpacking equipment. I like to bring my light weight equipment (most of it is quite inexpensive) and show them what they "need" to have rather than what they "think" they'll need.

Again, it is up to us that have the knowledge to train others.

Here is a link that has been shared before and that I share with our Scouts and parents.
http://www.kuffelcreek.com/new_release.htm


Now, can we get back to the topic in the original post?

Tango61

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#105961 - 11/11/08 07:04 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: thecook]
Heber Offline
member

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 245
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
That's an interesting perspective. I'm not sure whether I totally agree with it but it's certainly something to think about. I've gone the other way with my children (I have 5 kids ranging from 15 to 2 years old, all except the youngest backpack with me occasionally). I go very minimalist on their packs and I carry most of the gear. They usually only have their hammocks and their sleeping bags in their packs.

My questions/concerns with what you are saying are two-fold. I wish I could talk to a specialist in pediatric orthopedics.

1. Should kids carry a higher percentage of their weight than adults? My inclination is to say no because they are not scaled down adults, a higher percentage of their weight is organs as opposed to bones and muscle. So if anything I would think they should carry a lower percentage of their weight than I would.

2. Can you really transfer weight to a kids hips they way you do with an adult? As I look at my 6 and 10 year old and some of the younger scouts they seem to be built more like stick figures than like people. Their hips are not as wide compared to the rest of them. It sounds like your daughters hip belt worked well. That's not what seemed to be happening with the scouts I looked at. And I'm not sure it should. The hips develop their mass and strength comparatively late it seems to me. So my kid's packs are beltless or have a small belt that is just meant to keep the pack from flopping around.

Well I don't know the answer here. But it does appear that their is a variety of experience on the subject and more than one perspective.

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#105962 - 11/11/08 07:21 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: thecook]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
“I have to disagree with the premise that lighter is always better in a child's backpack.”

Lighter is always better with kids (or anyone) if it fits.
It sounds like her school bag had no hip belt.
The Jib weighs 2.9 lbs. (44 ci/oz efficiency). If you are patient, you will find packs for kids under 18oz. Last time I checked there was one here for $50 http://www.gossamergear.com/cgi-bin/gossamergear/garage_sale.html
The miniposa (196 ci/oz efficiency) or mariposa are comfortable packs. Some use it with the carbon rods. I do not, as I find it’s more comfortable just using closed cell foam for the frame.

-Barry

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#105963 - 11/11/08 07:26 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: Jimshaw]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Quote:
I also had a 50 blade knife with a spoon and fork on the sides.
I had one of those knifes/kitchen appliances. I wish I still had it for nostalgia. I think it weighed about a pound.
Jim, maybe you should become a professional scoutmaster. Really, someone should. Give those boys some real direction on survival,gear and skills. We don't need lost scouts trying to use cell phones to call there troop leader to find out where the camp is. Don't laugh, I witnessed this on a bike ride 5 mi from my house in an area that is more like a park.
_________________________
Enjoy your next trip...

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#105964 - 11/11/08 08:49 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: chaz]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
I just gotta say, the Scouts and Guides and Brownies and Cubs were very well turned out down at the Remembrance Day Ceremonies this morning. I'm a very proud and humbled dad today. Going for a hike now with Margaret and another family.

I checked the Canadian Scouting Field Manual. It suggests that children should be able to carry 25-30% their own weight, which is considerably higher than the guidelines of the medical profession at 10-15%. I think my guidelines based on height are best. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Everyone have a good day.

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#105965 - 11/11/08 03:41 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: chaz]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Quote:
I was looking at some of my old gear the other day trying to decide what to do with it. 12" cast iron fry pan. 2 burner coleman stove. 20 bottles of propane, Very warm very large sleeping bag (from walmart), cheap dome tent, 20+ diy alcy stoves, Mess kit . Axe, Large hunting knife, cooking utensils, set of 4 place setting.
Its all in a large rubbermaid container. I decided to save it. For what I don't know.
Got any good ideas? Well, besides the trash.


Stick it all in an Earthling Doodad Box and send it out <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Oh, don't forget to put Earthling on the box list <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#105966 - 11/11/08 04:05 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: Heber]
Cesar Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 217
Loc: El Paso, TX
Quote:
For my son who is 6 I bought the smaller version of this pack (the flash UL) for $25 which weighs 9 ounces and has a capacity of 1000 CI.
.


Do you know what the torso length is for the Flash UL or would you be able to measure yours if not. I'm looking for a small pack for my soon to be six year old daughter and there are no decent stores near me so she can try on. She wont be needing it till spring but would like to have a idea of what to get her.

I also found this
MEC Tenny Genie Daypack 25L pack at 22 oz's but I dont think you can get them in the states.

Going to measure her torso tonight.
_________________________
My gear is no where near lightweight

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#105967 - 11/11/08 06:01 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: Heber]
thecook Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 541
Loc: Minnesota
I agree kids should carry a lower percentage of their body weight. My point is that that is very difficult because they weigh so little. Your concern about lte development of the hips is an interesting point and one I've never thought about or heard mentioned before. Without more information on hip development though, I still prefer to put the weight there rather than compressing the back which is fragile enough even in adults, much less growing children.
_________________________
If I wouldn't eat it at home, why would I want to eat it on the trail?

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#105968 - 11/12/08 07:41 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: Cesar]
Heber Offline
member

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 245
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
Since there is no hip belt I don't think the torso length really matters like it would for a pack with a belt. But it would be annoying for a kid to have a pack that hangs too low. To get a feel for that look at this picture of my son. He's 6 and not tall for his age. Works great for him. (The CCF pad on top is too wide for him, kind of funny looking on the trail).

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/iSb4-eXy406sDiBbXJbK4w?authkey=ttn0FN_XZSs

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#105969 - 11/12/08 07:59 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: Heber]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
So what did he do wrong, throw a rock at a squirrel or something? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

That's not a bad looking setup, as long as its light. I cut Margaret's pad down and now that she will be carrying a pack I'm going to try and coil the pad inside like I do with mine. 20" wide might work for her, next to 28" for mine, with a little overlap. So that would make her pack 20" high. The tricky thing with converting ultralight adult daypacks is the shoulder straps tend to attach to the very top, so they hang too low. In theory, a 20"x50"x3/8" pad takes up 375ci, which isn't bad. It's the bedroll where things can get tricky. I think she will just carry a summer weight bedroll and I will provide and overquilt for the other seasons. Just a 2 pound wool blanket maybe. We have a 5'x5' wool blanket that is lightly woven and perfect I think, using the diagonal method. Very packable and versatile and works well under an overquilt. Jackets can get out of hand also unless you keep them light. I am going to try her keep a wool sweater on same as I do, and keep the rest of the clothes packable. I want to make her a rain poncho also, by just cutting one down with a nice hood.

I am converting this pack, 10oz, 1200ci, which you can get for $50 some places...
http://www.patagonia.com/web/us/product/...672&ws=

So I think I need to modify where the straps attach. I think its do-able.
I could just make one of course, but I think this pack is close enough.


Let me just add things up a bit, for a 48" tall child...
sneakers: 1 pound
socks, skin layers, middle layers, windshells, hats, mitts: 3 pounds
blue foam pad, wool bedroll, nylon throw, rain poncho/tarp, pegs, cord: 3 pounds
backpack: 0.75 pounds
water bottle, mug, spoon, map, compass, mug, tealight candle stove, lighter, knife, stuff: 0.75 pound
home-made hiking staff, made along the way: 1 pound
food for 2.5 days, water carried: 2.5 pounds
=============
12 pounds, total skin out

Not bad. That would be about 23% of my daughter current weight.
I still might carry some of that myself, keep her down below 10 pounds.

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#105970 - 11/12/08 08:09 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: Heber]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Quote:
To get a feel for that look at this picture of my son. He's 6 and not tall for his age. Works great for him. (The CCF pad on top is too wide for him, kind of funny looking on the trail).
Hope your son dosen't get hung up on narrow trails. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I have the same setup using an REI UL60. I first carried my pad, (a CSF ridgerest), on the outside of my pack but secured it verticaly. I cut about 2" from each end and trimmed the edges a bit. Now I roll it and place in in the pack and open it up, creating a tube,( a la Phat), that you can stuff everything into. It streamlines the setup nicely and eliminated the stuff sack. I don't know the length of your sons pack but just an idea you might consider. I wouldn't want him to get spun around and fall. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> But at least with that setup, if he lands on his back, he'll have cushion. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Enjoy your next trip...

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#105971 - 11/12/08 08:44 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: chaz]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:
Quote:
To get a feel for that look at this picture of my son. He's 6 and not tall for his age. Works great for him. (The CCF pad on top is too wide for him, kind of funny looking on the trail).
Hope your son dosen't get hung up on narrow trails. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I have the same setup using an REI UL60. I first carried my pad, (a CSF ridgerest), on the outside of my pack but secured it verticaly. I cut about 2" from each end and trimmed the edges a bit. Now I roll it and place in in the pack and open it up, creating a tube,( a la Phat), that you can stuff everything into. It streamlines the setup nicely and eliminated the stuff sack. I don't know the length of your sons pack but just an idea you might consider. I wouldn't want him to get spun around and fall. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> But at least with that setup, if he lands on his back, he'll have cushion. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I like the blue foam pad on the inside also, which doubles as a pack frame. Some kids packs might need modification to get the shoulder straps lower to get the pack to ride higher. See above. Should be able to make a very light kids pack this way, or adults pack.

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#105972 - 11/12/08 01:00 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: BarryP]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
As to kids packs: buy the best you can afford, with the best suspension, fitted the best you can.

Frankly it steams me when I see adults wearing nice packs and their kids are suffering - be it from a misguided view that a kid can wear anything to that they don't want to spend the $$ on gear the kid will blow through in a year or two.

While I wear light packs and will suffer gladly when I overload them, I would not do that to my son. I was preached at many a time when Ford was young that the 2 lb 6 ounce Deuter Fox pack was "too heavy", yet that pack had an amazing suspension for kids.

Kid's bones and muscles are growing and need to be protected. After all these years I would not put a UL pack without suspension on a child's body. Basically you might as well put a bookpack on them at that point.

Cut the weight elsewhere in their gear - but not the suspension! Since Ford was 3 1/2 he has done at least 50 backpacking trips - At least 4,000 miles I know that. And every time I put him in ill fitting gear I heard non-stop griping. Too often kids won't tell you it hurts though!
_________________________
Freezer Bag Cooking, Trail Cooking, Recipes, Gear and Beyond:
www.trailcooking.com

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#105973 - 11/12/08 01:34 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: sarbar]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
“Cut the weight elsewhere in their gear - but not the suspension!”

Going UL doesn’t require that much suspension.

I have found that light packs that use closed cell foam provide admirable suspension. Plus kid’s stuff isn’t that heavy anyway. My daughter hasn’t carried more than 10lbs for the last 2 years (she’s now 12). That includes everything (like food, fuel, water).

Now she has tried it w/o the hip belt, but that was a lot of complaining!

-Barry

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#105974 - 11/12/08 07:41 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: BarryP]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:
“Cut the weight elsewhere in their gear - but not the suspension!”

Going UL doesn’t require that much suspension.

I have found that light packs that use closed cell foam provide admirable suspension. Plus kid’s stuff isn’t that heavy anyway. My daughter hasn’t carried more than 10lbs for the last 2 years (she’s now 12). That includes everything (like food, fuel, water).

Now she has tried it w/o the hip belt, but that was a lot of complaining!

-Barry
I agree with that. The coiled closed cell foam pad makes for excellent suspension, even when the pack is half full. It's important to get the shoulder straps and hip belt right, but they can still be very light and don't need to be padded as long as the load is light.

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#105975 - 11/12/08 08:15 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: JAK]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
That Deuter Fox is a great looking pack for most Scouts and Guides, if they really need to carry more weight than perhaps they should.
http://www.rei.com/product/725201

Price: $80
Seems like a very fair price for this pack.

Weight: 2 pounds 10 oz
Not bad, but still seems rather heavy for many kids that should carry less than 10 pounds of pack weight.

Volume: 1,850 cubic inches
I think that is a great volume for Scouts and Guides. Volume doesn't hurt as long as they learn to pack light.

Torso Length: 10 - 17 inches
That is quite the range, but I have to question whether a child with a 10-12" torso should be wearing this pack. Then again there might be some very short but very solid kids. I think the practical range might be 13-17" but I'm not exactly sure.

Fits waist/hips: 24 - 32 inches ????
This seems to be the most limiting factor, and perhaps also a better measure of a child's ability to bear enough weight to justify this pack. It's good that they list it. I'll have to check my 9 year old daughter. She is definitely tall enough for the torso length but I think her waist/hips are still a ways under 24".

I will definitely consider this pack based on Sarbars positive experience with it, but only once our child is older and able to carry more weight. She is 9, but still only 48" tall and 52 pounds. I still think a lighter pack is justified, even for larger children, as long as it fits them right and the suspension is stable. The method of using a blue foam pad coiled vertically works very well. Pack weight only needs to be proportional to the load it carries. Perhaps my biggest beef with this pack is that it looks too much like so many overbuilt and overweight adult packs, which sends the wrong message to most kids and parents I think. Generally speaking kids and most adults should be learning to go ultralight, or at least reasonably light, so I think we should be building better ultralight packs for kids. Scouts and Guides should be leading, not following. I think it will happen in time. Until then, I am happy to improvise.

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#105976 - 11/12/08 11:32 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: JAK]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6401
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
What I would really like for a kid's pack is to get a good supportive pack (Deuter Fox or REI Comet or something of that sort), completely remove the pack bag (which is not only too heavy but also full of heavy straps and zippers, lots of pockets and all sorts of other decorative and unnecessary gewgaws) and install its harness and internal frame in an MLD kids' Prophet or a similar Dyneema pack bag. You'd then have a really supportive pack that would weigh about 1 1/2 lbs. Of course you'd have to spend a lot of money and time on it! But then the kid would have the combination of a really light pack but plenty of support. A 9-10 lb. load for most 8-9 year olds is a really heavy load. I believe in teaching a kid to take care of his/her possessions and not to drag his pack over rocks or throw it over a cliff, instead of wasting all that weight on a "bombproof" pack bag of really heavy nylon with what seem like a zillion extra straps and pockets. With some relatively minimal supervision, a plain Dyneema pack bag with mesh outside pockets should be just fine for kids. But it needs to be combined with a good frame, harness, hip belt and, preferably, load lifters. I agree with Sarbar that a kid does need some good structure to be able to carry weight. I just detest the way-to-heavy pack bag that goes with the supportive structure!

I got my oldest grandkid an REI Comet pack two years ago and did major surgery (more like butchery!) on it to remove as many of the gewgaws and zippers as possible. I was able to remove about 3/4 pound. It's still, IMHO, too heavy, but it's now just under 2 lbs.

My two older grandkids, Sissy and JP, who will be 7 and 9 (the younger, though, is as big as the older) will be using the small size Gossamer Gear Mariposas next year. The hip belt just barely fit last summer (I may have to put a little extra padding on the inside of it). The rest of the pack fit just fine and was comfortable for a 1-hour trial (per kid) with an 8-lb. load (all their personal gear--clothing, sleeping bags, pads, snacks, water). I won't know for sure just how well this will work out until we go backpacking next summer. If the Mariposas work out, the packs should last until they are ready for adult size packs. I tried one myself with a 15-lb load--with the optional stays and the stiff sit pad in the back, it's really comfortable and supportive, although a bit too narrow in the shoulders for me. Although they don't have load lifters, that doesn't appear to be a problem. If it becomes a problem, I'll put some in (or get someone to do it), which shouldn't be too hard. (The Mariposas will be officially presented to the kids at Christmas.)

A hip belt and load lifters are actually quite important for kids, even with a daypack. The #1 complaint with my grandson, before I got the butchered REI Comet, was that the straps were pulling down on the tops of his shoulders--this with a 5-lb. daypack, otherwise well-fitting but with no hip belt. One of the things I can still remember about my first backpacking trip at age 6 was how tired and sore my shoulders got with a 5-lb. load. It's also very hard to find a daypack that fits young children (age 4-8). Most book packs are far too large for the kindergarten through grades 2-3 set and hang down way below their buttocks. Granite Gear used to make a really neat young kids' daypack called the Sidekick, but it has been discontinued. It had stiff enough foam in its back to allow considerable weight transfer to the hipbelt to keep the straps from cutting into the tops of the shoulders. I got one on closeout for Sissy when she was 5. She carried 6 lbs. in it last summer. There's no room for the sleeping bag, though. She'll use the Mariposa next summer, and little brother "Bear" (just turned 4) will inherit the Sidekick. LL Bean sells packs sized for this age, but you'd have to add a hipbelt.

Individual kids really differ. Sissy (the granddaughter) is going to be given a little more weight than big brother JP next summer because she is stronger and a better hiker than he is. She is a far better athlete, which is unfortunate for him.


Edited by OregonMouse (11/12/08 11:36 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#105977 - 11/13/08 01:27 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: BarryP]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
Quote:
“Cut the weight elsewhere in their gear - but not the suspension!”

Going UL doesn’t require that much suspension.

I have found that light packs that use closed cell foam provide admirable suspension. Plus kid’s stuff isn’t that heavy anyway. My daughter hasn’t carried more than 10lbs for the last 2 years (she’s now 12). That includes everything (like food, fuel, water).

Now she has tried it w/o the hip belt, but that was a lot of complaining!

-Barry


Ford carries his food (he has his own Ursack) at about 2 lbs a day (I carry the rest). He eats constantly (he is 11, 5'4" and weighs in the low 90's). On a 3 day trip he carries a minimum of 6 lbs of food, his gear and his water. Even with his gear being light he will never have a UL pack due to his food. He carries around 16-18 lbs now. In the next year I am going to have him carry all of his food (I hump about a lb per day of his). Frankly, he will not be able to go under 3 lbs a day due to how hungry he is.
He recently had to move into an adult sleeping bag, adding more weight (but not much, I bought a light bag).
For him to carry 18 lbs in an unstructured bag would be painful - one reason why I got rid of his MS Seraph pack. He has no "padding" on his bones to make a pack comfortable. Currently he is using a Kelty Haiku pack, which is 3 1/2 lbs. But has enough padding for his bones.
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#105978 - 11/13/08 02:06 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: sarbar]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
“For him to carry 18 lbs in an unstructured bag would be painful - one reason why I got rid of his MS Seraph pack.”

The growing boy syndrome. I’ve only had 3 of those so far <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />.

It’s ironic you got rid of the MS Seraph pack. My family loves that pack. I prefer it over the Ghost (because my torso is smaller). I thought it to be extremely well structured up to 30lbs. But of course, the important question is, does it fit you? If it doesn’t, then something else must be done.

Of all my packs, the Ghost/Seraph-- I sweat the least on my back and it fits my body shape extremely well; and my family loves them (we have 3 MS packs).

If the Kelty you talk about is like this: http://www.mbstores.com/keha43infrpa.html then that looks like a lot more volume for his food <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-Barry

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#105979 - 11/13/08 02:28 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: sarbar]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:
Quote:
“Cut the weight elsewhere in their gear - but not the suspension!”

Going UL doesn’t require that much suspension.

I have found that light packs that use closed cell foam provide admirable suspension. Plus kid’s stuff isn’t that heavy anyway. My daughter hasn’t carried more than 10lbs for the last 2 years (she’s now 12). That includes everything (like food, fuel, water).

Now she has tried it w/o the hip belt, but that was a lot of complaining!

-Barry


Ford carries his food (he has his own Ursack) at about 2 lbs a day (I carry the rest). He eats constantly (he is 11, 5'4" and weighs in the low 90's). On a 3 day trip he carries a minimum of 6 lbs of food, his gear and his water. Even with his gear being light he will never have a UL pack due to his food. He carries around 16-18 lbs now. In the next year I am going to have him carry all of his food (I hump about a lb per day of his). Frankly, he will not be able to go under 3 lbs a day due to how hungry he is.
He recently had to move into an adult sleeping bag, adding more weight (but not much, I bought a light bag).
For him to carry 18 lbs in an unstructured bag would be painful - one reason why I got rid of his MS Seraph pack. He has no "padding" on his bones to make a pack comfortable. Currently he is using a Kelty Haiku pack, which is 3 1/2 lbs. But has enough padding for his bones.
I think in another year he's going to be carrying you on his shoulders. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Your information has been very helpful Sarbar. I've put alot of thought into this for Margaret but don't have the trail experience of you and/or Ford. I've taken your suspension thoughts to heart but still need to scale things make a bit for Margaret. She is 9, 4'1" and 52 pounds as of yesterday. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So she weighs about 55% of Ford, so perhaps might carry 9-10 pounds vs his 16-18. Using my height squared formula if I were to use that she is 77% his height, so that again works out to about 58% the load. I think its safe to say that neither of our kids are overweight but I like the height squared rule for most kids because it doesn't suggest that overweight kids can carry more. I also like it because I made it up. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think I need to scale it back though, based on your numbers for Ford. So here is my formula again, with some modifications. I will now call it the Formula Ford. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Formula Ford...

Max Skin Out Load [pounds] = Child's Height [feet] Squared.
Safe Pack Load = 2/3 Maxium Skin Out Load.

4' = 16 pounds maxium skin out, 10 pounds safe pack load.
5.3' = 28 pounds maxium skin out, 18 pounds safe pack load.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#105980 - 11/13/08 05:30 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: JAK]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
When he was 6-8 I kept his total pack weight down to 10 lbs or less. I did that by carrying most of his water and his food <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Some kids adapt better than others - Ford is a natural born hiker <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I got lucky with that!
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#105981 - 11/13/08 05:32 PM Re: Kids packs [Re: sarbar]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
I was thinking and laughing about a friends daughter - she is a year older than Ford. When we all hike together she bats her eyes at Ford till by the end of the hike he has her poles and has eaten most of his tasty snack food.

Ya know, I keep telling him to be wary of the ladies. His reply was "But if I didn't do it she would be sad". Uh-huh......... lol!
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