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#105932 - 11/09/08 08:26 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: RobA]
just_another_Joe Offline
member

Registered: 11/30/06
Posts: 117
The whole idea that SUL is better than UL is better than lightweight gear, and the solution is to buy more new gear that is lighter than last year's new gear.

In the cost category, titanium cups in the smaller sizes. The material is a few grams lighter than the aluminum equivalent and costs about 4X as much. Yes, lighter is better, but at $5 a gram lighter, that is a triumph of advertising over common sense. Okay, pay a hundred dollars a pound for lightening your pack or bag, but don't pay $40 for a metal cup that holds less than a 12 oz. Heineken beer can, yet weighs more.

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#105933 - 11/09/08 08:36 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: just_another_Joe]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2742
Loc: California
I have a titanum cup - and love it! I also really like my titanium cookset. To me it is worth every dollar. I do not use aluminum cookware AT ALL. Ingestion of aluminim may be linked to Alheizmers.

I actually cook - not just boil water. In the past when I used aluminum, I felt they burned food more easily.

Now, to put it in perspective, these items were given to me as gifts. I always put the expensive UL gear on my Christmas list!

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#105934 - 11/09/08 09:04 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: wandering_daisy]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
The Alheizmers society has ruled out aluminum as a cause of Alheizmers disease.

That said, it is far better to own one titanium cookset and get good use out of it and take good care of it than all the truly wasteful things we do with materials and energy each and every day. Titanium is perhaps the most sustainable choice for a cookset, once we know what we want. If we are still experimenting with shapes and sizes it is better to work with aluminum.

p.s. Beer should be home brewed, and stored in large glass bottles, with re-usable stopper tops. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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#105935 - 11/10/08 07:02 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: midnightsun03]
Haiwee Offline
member

Registered: 08/21/03
Posts: 330
Loc: Southern California
I've had my cast iron pan since I was eighteen, so it's seen almost thirty years of use. The thing is so well-seasoned than nothing sticks to it. My Dad's pan has got to be fifty years old, and my sister and I are already fighting over who will eventually get it. Best cookware ever designed.
_________________________
My blog on politics, the environment and the outdoors: Haiwee.blogspot.com

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#105936 - 11/10/08 07:06 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: wandering_daisy]
coyotemaster Offline
member

Registered: 03/07/06
Posts: 294
Loc: Arizona
Quote:
I do not use aluminum cookware AT ALL. Ingestion of aluminim may be linked to Alheizmers.


I'm glad you point that out.
I don't even use antiperspirant, only deodorant, because of the aluminum salts.

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#105937 - 11/10/08 07:32 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: coyotemaster]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:
Quote:
I do not use aluminum cookware AT ALL. Ingestion of aluminim may be linked to Alheizmers.


I'm glad you point that out.
I don't even use antiperspirant, only deodorant, because of the aluminum salts.


Alzheimer's Society - Aluminium and Alzheimer's disease
http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/factsheet/406

"The overwhelming medical and scientific opinion is that the findings outlined above do not convincingly demonstrate a causal relationship between aluminium and Alzheimer's disease, and that no useful medical or public health recommendations can be made - at least at present (Massey and Taylor 1989)."

The Alzheimer's Society has held to this opinion since 1989, almost 20 years.


That said, I don't use aluminum containing anti-perspirants either, but I try to avoid all unneccessary use of any such consumer products. Most plastics, personal hygene products, cleaning supplies, air fresheners, textile coatings, it's all crap mostly. The cumulative effect of all of this is waste and ill-health. I keep it simple, and stick with safe materials that exist naturally. I have taken to using stuff like cheap gin mixed with water for after-shave, mouth-wash, and sparingly on under arms and feet and other body parts now and then. I get plain natural soap and shampoo and use it sparingly, but mostly depend on healthy exercise before I shower and clean hot water to stay clean and fresh. I wear wool, but wash it only when it is noticeably dirty or smelly, and usually then only a rinse. Only my underwear gets washed everyday.

I use any metal cookware, prefering stainless at home and not particular in the field, but I avoid plastics and plastic coatings, and food that is over processed and over packaged. Basically, I try and keep it natural. I use safe materials that exist in nature and the body in naturally adapted to. I am skeptical about ALL consumer products. I use materials, not brand names.

Ironically, the epoxy used to coat aluminum cans is not safe, but the aluminum is. It is usually a pretty thin coating, and safer than the Nalgene bottles, but I might still think twice before using an epoxy coated beer can or juice can metal for hot water. I think the coffee cans are uncoated.

Aluminum makes up 8% of the weight of the Earth's crust.
It's mostly in dirt, rocks, and ceramics as aluminum oxides and compounds.
It doesn't exist naturally as a metal, but it coats itself with its own oxide.
I might not use it for long term storage of tomatoes, but I would cook with it.
I wouldn't use aluminum-chloride as anti-perspirant, but I'm not afraid of clay.
Aluminum is a natural material. We just shouldn't do un-natural things with it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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#105938 - 11/10/08 08:14 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: phat]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
Don't know what category this really falls in, but the common old school Tube Tent deserves honorable mention. It may make sense as emergency gear but nothing more.

There's nothing like sleeping in a big plastic bag <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

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#105939 - 11/10/08 08:42 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: phat]
Heber Offline
member

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 245
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
Just got back from hiking with our local scout troop and did a little research. We had lots of boys with HEAVY packs. I swear some of them were bigger than the boys carrying them. I got to look in some of the packs and the NUMBER one offendeder? (drum roll please)

THE PACK ITSELF! I couldn't believe some of these monsters. Big, heavy external frames, many extra compartments here and there. Straps and straps everywhere. Several boys had the Kelty Yukon 3000. Perhaps not the heaviest there but it was the most common. I looked it up this morning: 4 pounds 9 ounces. Besides the huge metal frame it has a "hold open bar". A few of the adult leaders had the large size version of the pack. When you look the pack up on Kelty's website it says "popular with scouts". I think that is a warning sign.

Secondary offenders (in order of seriousness)

Heavy sleeping bags (doesn't bother me as much since my main concern on these trips is that the boys don't get cold at night and the price differential between a warm-but-light bag and a warm-but-heavy bag can be very steep)

Extra clothes (this was an overnight hike but the moms packed for several days, needless to say no scout changed so this was all "along for the ride")

Nalgene bottles (very nearly universal)

BIG knives

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#105940 - 11/10/08 08:56 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: Heber]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

I think mom packing the bag should be the first warning sign..

Of course the problem if mom doesn't pack it is in the other extreme they end up with a pack with three bags of ju-jubes, 8 cans of coke, a PSP with 50 games, an no clothes because they play video games in their underwear at home..
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#105941 - 11/10/08 09:22 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: phat]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
ROFLMAO
Good one Phat. video game in underwear. classic

I gotta agree the biggest offender is overweight packs.
Way too heavy and way too much money also.

The Scout Shop should be sued for this. I'm serious. They have no excuse.
If they wanna rip-off adults that's fine, but kids, scouts? Come on.

The other crap they sell I have no problem with.

Scouts need a 3600ci 2 pound pack for $60.
Cubs need a 1800ci 1 pound pack for $40.
This ain't rocket science folks. This is just scouting. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#105942 - 11/10/08 09:37 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: Heber]
alanwenker Offline
member

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 812
I find it amazing how much more modern externals weigh compared to the 1970's versions. Pick up a Kelty D4 verus a modern Kelty and the difference is amazing. Modern packs seem to have hip belts designed for expedition loads in packs that are meant for weekend backpacking.

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#105943 - 11/10/08 09:49 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: JAK]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Actually, I think the best thing you could do is have scouts go out with an 1800 CI pack. I do weekends on such a thing (with my sleeping pad strapped to the outside) no problem at all.

Big backpacks just mean they fill them with useless crap. - volume is the enemy because they
fill it.
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#105944 - 11/10/08 09:54 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyone? [Re: alanwenker]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
It's all because most people pay more money for something that weighs more. Kids footwear and rain gear is all pretty much the same, even to the point of total loss of function, especially in winter clothing. I shudder every time my mother in law wants to buy my daughter a new winter outfit, but you can't stop them. After she parades that around on Christmas morning we wait for the snow and then put on her real winter clothes and head out to play. It's really quite sad. Don't get me started on running sneakers with 1" platform soles. The entire kid weighs less than my feet alone, and they put them on stilts? Even running stores do this. They gotta start making clothes for kids, not adults that buy for kids.

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#105945 - 11/10/08 10:00 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: JAK]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Ugh. You made me go look at the online catalogue for the scouts canada scout shop, and I'm
having post traumatic flashbacks to my backpacking experiences with scouts when I was a little pup - especially the coleman peak 1 stove and metal handled hatchet. I need to go twitch nervously in the corner for a while.

I think I could basically nominate everything in it..
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#105946 - 11/10/08 10:14 AM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: phat]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:

Actually, I think the best thing you could do is have scouts go out with an 1800 CI pack. I do weekends on such a thing (with my sleeping pad strapped to the outside) no problem at all.

Big backpacks just mean they fill them with useless crap. - volume is the enemy because they
fill it.
Yeah I agree with you on that. I use a 3100ci on overnights even in winter, even with a wide blue foam pad. I've used a 1800ci daypack in summer also. 2400ci 1.5 pounds could be standard for scouts, and 1200ci 1 pound for cubs. Heck they could make their own I suppose. I'm going to convert my 1200ci 10oz daypack for my daughter. It's got a waist strap, down below her bum at the moment. Plenty of volume for what she will carry though. She is a Guide now, but bascially still cub sized. Lots of fun.

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#105947 - 11/10/08 01:15 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: phat]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:

Ugh. You made me go look at the online catalogue for the scouts canada scout shop, and I'm
having post traumatic flashbacks to my backpacking experiences with scouts when I was a little pup - especially the coleman peak 1 stove and metal handled hatchet. I need to go twitch nervously in the corner for a while.

I think I could basically nominate everything in it..


Now you are beginning to see why I said that anything in the BSA shop would fit your criteria. For those who don't know, BSA stands for (Boy Scouts of America).
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#105948 - 11/10/08 01:33 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: JAK]
StepChld Offline
member

Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Garland, Texas
Quote:

Scouts need a 3600ci 2 pound pack for $60.
Cubs need a 1800ci 1 pound pack for $40.
Where might this 3600ci, 2lbs. pack for $60 be found at? I would love to find that for my son and his troop as well!
_________________________
Never moon a werewolf

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#105949 - 11/10/08 02:06 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: StepChld]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:
Quote:

Scouts need a 3600ci 2 pound pack for $60.
Cubs need a 1800ci 1 pound pack for $40.
Where might this 3600ci, 2lbs. pack for $60 be found at? I would love to find that for my son and his troop as well!

If they can build a 5# packs for $60, why not 2# packs for $60?
http://www.scoutshops.com/acatalog/rucksacks.html

...and why are they $100 in USA, and even heavier?
http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/Item...;amp;item=24184

http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/Item...;amp;item=24185


Here are some very good, cheap, and light alternatives for your son for now...
$40 for 2400ci 1.25 pounds
http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/packdetail.cfm?PRODUCTS__productID=CMP605

$100 for 2800-3200ci varying sizes ~1.25 pounds
http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/packdetail.cfm?PRODUCTS__productID=GO9112
http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/packdetail.cfm?PRODUCTS__productID=GO9121

I have the Jam2 Men's Large. It's a great pack.
I use it even in winter, but I might get the Pinnacle for winter use.
$130 for 4000-4500ci varying sizes ~1.5 pounds
http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/packdetail.cfm?PRODUCTS__productID=GO9120

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#105950 - 11/10/08 02:39 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: finallyME]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:

Now you are beginning to see why I said that anything in the BSA shop would fit your criteria. For those who don't know, BSA stands for (Boy Scouts of America).


Yeah, and it distresses me a very great deal actually - I kind of learned to love backpacking and being outside in spite of my scouting experience. I think I mentioned on WCT this summer passing
a group of american boy scouts heading for the length of the west coast trail - and talking to the adult leader, he was mentioning they were keeping the kids lightweight - *trying* to keep them under 45 lbs, and mentioning they weren't always successful. *45 lbs* on a 12 year old kid walking 8 days worth of rough trail that *I* am walking with a pack that I started with 28 lbs with dropped down to about 18 or so near the end, and my clothing is a lot bigger than your average 12 year old kid in that scout troop. What a way to not have a good time.

I realize most scout leaders are amateurs too, but man, there's something in me that says the blind leading the blind just sends our youth off a cliff. How the heck do we get any kind of notion of
appropriate packweight and keeping it simple into scouts I don't know.
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#105951 - 11/10/08 03:34 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: phat]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
I wonder how many scout troop in North America, or around the world, has gone reasonably light and cheap, carrying their own gear on multiple overnights.

I am not sure how to define reasonably light and cheap.
Depends on the size of scouts and the climate I suppose.

Perhaps as a simple squared function of height, like...
4'0" = 16 pounds pack weight, or even skin out weight
4'6" = 20 pounds ''
5'0" = 25 pounds ''
5'6" = 30 pounds ''
6'0" = 36 pounds ''

Here is a growth charts for boys, for the curious...
guidelines.http://pediatrics.about.com/library/growth_charts/nboystwo.htm

I bought the Field Book for Canadian Scouting the other day. I must say its a great book for $10 and I've heard some middle school and high school teachers actually use it for some course curriculum. It has alot of good stuff in there, including advice on buying stuff, but nothing that I recall about limiting or minimizing the amount of weight they carry. You would think that Scouts would have some reasonable guidelines. There's got to be something. It's pretty basic stuff. I think medical associations have already spoken out about books and book bags in the last few years, which have gotten way out of hand.

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#105952 - 11/10/08 03:37 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: phat]
Spock Offline
member

Registered: 01/10/06
Posts: 679
Loc: Central Texas
Back in the 1970s I designed and prototyped a duffle bag/frameless backpack aimed especially at scouts. Figured the dual duty would make it more practical for cash strapped families. That was the era of stagflation before Paul Volker brought inflation under control. I sent it to the BSA headquarters with the clear understanding that I was giving them the design free and clear. I just wanted them to make it easier for scouts to backpack easily. Well... the pack disappeared and no one would fess up. Of course, at the time, BSA had decided that camping was passe', so they were moving to other activities. OFs will remember that this was about the time backpacking had already taken off big time and was growing. Go figure.

Incidentally, this was a compressible bag that used the sleeping pad as support. It had an upside-down V zipper on the single main compartment and detachable pockets. It weighed 2.25 pounds in Cordura at about 4,000 cubic inches.

I sometimes do UL programs for troops. The leaders are more clueless than the kids.

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#105953 - 11/10/08 03:48 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: JAK]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Standard equipment list given to parents. No mention of weight limits.
http://www.scouts.ca/media/documents/Equipmentlist.doc

Duty of Care...
http://www.scouts.ca/dnn/ForParents/DutyofCare/tabid/149/Default.aspx

Duty of Care

The mission of Scouting is to contribute to the education of young people, through a value system based on the Scout Promise and Law, to help build a better world where people are self-fulfilled as individuals and play a constructive role in society.

The Code of Conduct is expected of all adults who volunteer within Scouts Canada, recognizing that at all times they are expected to act responsibly and exercise a "Duty of Care" to the youth members.


These are the safe limits according to the medical profession:
http://z.about.com/d/ergonomics/1/0/w/-/-/-/bpweightchart.jpg

According to that chart, my 9 year old daughter should carry no more than 5 pounds in a backpack.

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#105954 - 11/10/08 03:48 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: StepChld]
Heber Offline
member

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 245
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
You can get an 1,830 CI pack that weighs 22 ounces at REI for $55.

http://www.rei.com/product/747523

That seems right for the smaller scouts. A little above your $40/1lb target but still not too bad. For my son who is 6 I bought the smaller version of this pack (the flash UL) for $25 which weighs 9 ounces and has a capacity of 1000 CI.

For the larger pack how about the Fanatic Fringe Thompson Peak pack which only weighs 9.5 ounces.

http://www.fanaticfringe.com/page5.html

It's 3600 CI for $69 or $79 depending on whether you need the hip belt.

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#105955 - 11/10/08 06:46 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: Heber]
thecook Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 541
Loc: Minnesota
As a former scout and backpacker for over 20 years who is now teaching his own children to enjoy backpacking, I have to disagree with the premise that lighter is always better in a child's backpack. Kids end up carrying a greater percentage of body weight than adults simply because they weigh so little. It is very important that their pack support that weight and transfer a significant portion to their hips. A little extra weight of pack is worth it for good support. One example. I took my 8 year old daughter backpacking in late August and she carried between 5 and 6 lbs in a good fitting school bag. Although she made it, the hike in was hard for her and necessitated many stops (and some whining). In early October, the whole family went back to the same place and she carried between 11 and 12 lbs in an Ospry Jib. (No she did not have a growth spurt in the interim) She went the whole distance, almost skipping most of the way, with no stops and no whining. It was not just the fact that she had a new pack, but that the pack transfered so much of the weight onto her hips. Legs are strong, they carry us around all the time. Arms, shoulders, and backs are weak in comparision.
_________________________
If I wouldn't eat it at home, why would I want to eat it on the trail?

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#105956 - 11/10/08 06:49 PM Re: Anti-Light Gear - The worst of the worst anyon [Re: Spock]
thecook Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 541
Loc: Minnesota
And the leaders at National are even more clueless.
_________________________
If I wouldn't eat it at home, why would I want to eat it on the trail?

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