A recent experience leads me to ask...

1. Have you ever "hit the wall" / "bonked" when hiking? What did you do? (I didn't but I was close)

2. Just as runners use gels and sports drinks, do you think such things would help backpackers regulate their blood sugar and muscle glucose to increase performance?

3. Did you ever overdo it and lose your appetite when hiking?

4. Anybody out there drink more than six liters a day on a "big" day? How much do you drink?

Yep.. I stopped, ate and drank. It's really that simple.



Many of us do. I carry the odd clif shot. Although often it's just a snickers bar <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Yep.



No, but I get close. Realisticly robably topped out at realisticly as 2-3 litres of water during a long day, a further litre for breakfast and a further litre at dinner.

I did a or 16+ mile day I believe, one time, about six-seven years ago. I didn't stop for lunch or a break, I was trying to beat a storm in Oct. Snowing all around me and on me lightly and here I was, on the wrong side of the mountain. When I finally stopped for a break in the afternoon, a little before 4:00, I was barely making it up little rises in the trail, around the north side of Thousand Island Lake in the Sierra, after coming from Iron Creek, just south of Hemlock Crossing, which is just east of Yosemite. I don't think I drank that much water all day either. Anyway, didn't really bonk, just had no power. When I stopped below the outlet of Thousand Island, I ate a Genisoy brand bar and drank some water. I had a watch with me on this trip, about 45 minutes later, I was striding uphill and jogging on the downhills and flat ground. In the 7.6 miles to the trailhead, according to my Tom Harrison map, I made it there in two hours.:) Felt fine, ate dinner at moms at 9:30 that night. Pooch kept up too. I believe in those bars, just can't find them anywhere now since last year.

If I don't get a good night's sleep, I'll bonk every time no matter what I eat or drink. But, a short nap and I'm good to go again.

Alright, A bonk is when you run out of steam when climbing or biking up a hill. You can recover from a bonk and keep going. The trick to avoiding hitting the wall is to keep hydrated and keep your glucose level feed. While hiking/biking eat small bites of snacks, bananas,granola bars etc. You can recover from the bonk but once you hit the wall you are done for the day and you are past trying to rehydrate or replenish your glucose. It's time to stop and recover. If you know your gonna exert yourself, eat and hydrate maybe an hour before you break camp and strike out. Your energy level will be much better. Also remember to hydrate well. Your body can sweat fluid faster than it can absorb it. When you get real thirsty, you will have a hard time quenching that thirst. No matter how much water you consume, your body will be at a deficite. Also, you can drink to much water and become water logged at a cellular level. Dangerous and you will feel like dog do do.

Sorry, I never hit the wall when hiking. I am not out to cover ground, but wounder around leisurely and enjoy myself. When I was younger, I don't remember ever doing it either. Maybe I did, but either I didn't know it, or don't remember.

I usually take a few cliff bars just because of their high energy content per weight, also taste. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't usually overdo it and lose appetite. I walk too slow.

In basic training, I would drink 12 quarts a day when out in the field ( they made us, we had to keep a hydration card with us and mark each time we drank a quart. We had to drink one an hour). I went to Fort Benning in July. I easily sweated out those 12 quarts in the same amount of time. When I was in Iraq, I also easily drank 12 liters a day (they gave us water bottles of 1.5 liters).

Just curious. What is the difference between "hitting the wall" and heat exhaustion or water intoxication. Is it muscular, mental, or an electrolite imbalance?

I drank 5-6 L coming up the Bright Angel from the river, a couple weeks ago. We drank and ate on a schedule and felt great when we got to the top. In fact, the wives picked us up in Flagstaff and we drove to Sedona and partied well into the night, with relatives.

On the other hand, a couple of people from the trip didn't fare so well, Both of them were very young adults and didn't pace them selves. One young lady became noticeably irritable, something she had never done throughout the week. It was quiet obvious to everyone that she was not hydrating or eating properly and her family made her rest, eat, and drink. We saw them later at the rim and she was fine.

Cliff shot blocks. love em.

I am with you. I do not "bonk", by design. In the wilderness it is not safe to "bonk" and one nees to conserve energy to avoid this. If you "bonk" in a marathaon race, someone is there to pick you up: if you are alone in the wilderness you must pay the consequences. The key is to properly pace yourself and take measures to avoid fatigue BEFORE it happens. Energy gels are only a temporary solution and should not be relied upon on a regular basis. Even before you "bonk" your judgement is tainted- not a good thing in the wilderness. Even on some of my hardest days I purposely save enough energy reserve to deal with an emergency. With experience, I have come to know what my limit is.

Hitting the wall, bonking etc. is an energy problem... the muscles have depleted their ready stores of glycogen. Rest and high energy food (carbs) will help alot.

MNS

WD,

Great post. Precise and concise. This should be added to the "Knowledge Nuggets" on the Forum.

Everyone is pretty much right on the subject here. Hitting the wall and bonking have to do with what your muscles have stored for energy. Heat problems have to do with not enough fluids and not being acclimated to the heat. The more you are subjected to the summer heat and working/exercising in it, the more your body can tolerate heat. I work outside all summer and can handle and perform up to the danger level of heat and humidity and still function at the end of the day. It's the cold weather that I can't seem to handle very long.

Chaz just about covers it.

I would add a couple of things. First, hydration. Drinking too much pure water can cause an electrolyte imbalance - what someone called water intoxication (not the fun kind). Crystal Light and other hydration additives will protect you from that. Or you can make your own. I use a packet of unsweetened lemon KoolAid, a teaspoon of table salt (sodium chloride) and 1/4 teaspoon of salt substitute (potassium chloride) per quart of water - but only in 1 of 3 quarts - well maybe every other quart in hot weather. I go by the feel. In hot weather and desert hiking, I will easily slam 6 quarts per day.

Second, sustained energy from complex carbohydrates. Complex carbs will carry you further than simple sugars. Simple sugar will give you a momentary boost and can aid recovery, but it does not last and the come-down can be brutal if you are racking miles.

I have been "waterlogged" and it ain't fun. I use diluted gatoraid. After a while it tastes sickening sweet (to much sugar) but I've found that if you are suffering in the heat and try to keep going by drinking to much of anything you can get Logged.
I've seen people pass out cold in the heat. Even though they were sitting under a cab on a backhoe,and drinking plenty of fluids. I would think that you should be able to feel it coming but aparently they didn't. Beats me...

A backpack leader told us the story of a hiking group with one guy getting sick during the day. He told the leader he had been drinking alot of gatorade. They put him in the shade and diluted his gatorade half-strength and he got over it.

I always figured it might be the high sugar. I've felt sick from eating candy corn as a kid. The leader told me he thought it was the sodium making him sick. Chaz's story of feeling sick from gatorade seems to lean towards the high sugar too. That of course doesn't rule out that it could have been heat related in the hiker story above.

Gatorade (at least the liquid version) contains high fructose corn syrup which is very, very bad for you! However, it is more apt to cause type 2 diabetes than nausea. Be sure to read the ingredient labels on those sport drinks before you buy! For me, though, just the taste of Gatorade is nauseating.

I use "Gookinaid," which is a lot less sweet, but in a solution half as strong as recommended. This seems to work well for me. You can get sick from too much electrolytes (sodium and/or potassium) as well as from too little. Of course individuals vary. And if you're getting more potassium from other sources (bananas, oranges, potatoes) you don't need quite as much of those electrolyte drinks as you would if you were not eating any of those sources.

Individuals can vary greatly as to how much electrolytes they need, so use the amount that works for you. Temperature, humidity, amount of effort all affect how much you need.

I really "bonked" at the end of the day in my Colorado and Wyoming trips until I got used to the altitude. I've never had much appetite at night when hiking, though, even when I'm not tired. I eat a relatively big breakfast and snack frequently during the day, so there isn't much room for dinner. I've cut my backpacking dinner portions way back as a result.

I think I mentioned this before, but I like the cliff shot blocks. That way I don't foul up my water container with sugary drinks, and can supplement the water with however much I feel like I need at the time.

No, I don't work for Cliff <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sugar, such as what you'll find in sports drinks like Gatorade, has the same effect of drawing water out of the body and into the blood as salt does. this can deprive the brain of fluids and cause all kinds of problems. Too little salt and/or sugar can cause the body to draw fluid from the blood, which can cause swelling in the brain, causing a different set of problems. Drinking too much water without electrolytes also causes fluid build-up on the brain. If you're drinking alot of sugar water, which is a simple carb, your muscles aren't going to be very excited about using it to build up their glycogen stores. If you want to build your glycogen stores you need complex carbs. A little salt and a little sweet is fine, but be very very careful when drinking large volumes of water because the body really isn't designed to process so much all at once, even when you're exercising and/or losing water in the heat. You absorb water much better when taken with a small amout of food, if you're going to go for a large volume. Otherwise, small sips prn is best overall. In other words, if your goal is to replace a gallon of water during the course of your hike, you're much better off drinking 2 oz every 15 minutes than drinking 16 oz every 2 hours during a rest break.

MNS

So thats what my problems have been all my life. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LOL Chaz...

I should be a little more specific about how drinking highly sweetened drinks can cause a similar response as salt or the opposite, no electrolytes. The important variable here is dehydration and no food intake. Osmosis is the process in play here. The body wants to have an equilibrium of sugars and electrolytes between the blood and fluids within the body tissues and "free spaces". Whenever the body becomes dehydrated, the concentration of these substances becomes altered. The body will utilize the sugars in the blood, and the kidneys will remove the excess sodium etc. If you suddenly flood the bloodstream with highly sugared liquids, the body will try to equilibriate itself, which is where the problems arise. I've written about this in the past with more detail... I'm afraid the details are eluding me this morning. I'll see if I can find an old post.

MNS

Edit: Here it is - RE: A different kind of sodium question

Per a conversation/message with Bill at Gookinade years ago, Gatorade has the wrong blend of sodium to potassium. Less salt more potassium is better. I gave some powdered Gookinade to one of my employees for her wheelchair bound, athletic son. He used to get sick, but recovered with the Gookinade. He went on to medal at Atlanta Para-Olympic games. I use it now and then now.

Thread drift here... but My ex-husband's cousin (female) raced in the Hotlanta Paralympic games too... she got a silver, edged out by her nemesis from Australia (who had also beat her in the Boston Marathon). I was there for the race... I wonder if I saw your employee's son race? What a small world... LOL

MNS

Thanks for this usefull info. I feel like I'm acclimated to the heat of summer but as I age it gets harder to go full steam in high humidity and extream heat. temps in the high 90's with 60-70% humidity heat indexes of 105 to 109 brutal.

LOL.. once again I'm reminded why I live in AK...

Per his mom, the Canadians made up a tough team. Like the road racing cyclists, they cut you off, draft, do what it takes to keep their man out front, even if he isn't the better man in the race. Team tactics I guess. I don't see the sportsmanship in amateur events like this, maybe where the racers have sponsors like the world tour bicylists. He raced in the first Lake Tahoe Marathon, said he wouldn't do it again, too dangerous on the piece by Emerald Bay with the downhills. He was invited to go.

My recent thinking is that there's nothing wrong with not having any appetite at the end of a hike. All that means is that you ate enough calories (and the right kind) to satisfy your body and it is no longer craving more energy. This seems like a good state to me (even though I do miss the super delicious post-hike meal a bit).

I eat and drink a whole lot when doing tough hikes. I keep my energy level up and I figure it is just better for my body in general.

It's not necessary to be hungry after a workout if you have been loading while doing what ever it is that you do. But I find that after rest the hunger sets in. Eat when your hungry not just because it's dinner time. If you work out so much that you loose your appitite and are overworked or close to heat exaustion then you have another proplem. You need to rehydrate, rest and take on more fuel. I have been to the state of total exaustion and dehydration and had to rest for hours before I could function. Never again...

Yeah, I've hit "the wall" a few times. The only hit the wall backpacking however a few times.

The first time was a few years ago in Alaska on my first backpacking trip while I lived there. Of course, work had me up at five in the morning and ruck marching out 5 miles on the crappiest rock road I've ever walked so we could go home for the weekend. I rolled my ankle over and over again on that stupid road and it had my feet burning, which is saying a lot because walking was the job pretty much. Then of course I had this trip planned for that day so it was get back to my room, change, grab my gear and buddy and dirve to the trail which was an hour away.

Then once we got to the trail, it was a 1,500 foot 5 mile hike constantly uphill until we reached the trail shelter, which we were determined to reach. We ate only once that whole day and by 10 o'clock at night(gotta love Alaska's long summer days for this reason) I was a walking zomby. It took us forever because my friend was a smoker and had to stop every so often as well, which was driving me nuts. Not to mention the trail was terrible the last 1 1/2 miles because it was climbing up rocks, hoping the rock cairns marking the trail hadn't been knocked over or anything. We pretty much stumlbed the last half mile to the shelter because we had been dumb about not eating enough not to mention we'd been up for a while as it was. That was a bad wall.

The last wall I did on purpose just to see where it was since I had had knee surgery 9 months earlier and had just got back into the excercise game a month earlier and hadn't dealt with the elevation of the Sawtooths here in Idaho in years. So I went a whole 6 or so hours above 7k-8.5k feet with just water until I hit the wall. Then when we stopped for water and to take a short break, I ate a protein bar and 20 minutes later I felt as good as I had at the beginning of the trail. On a side note, I really shocked the hell out of myself how easy it all was despite the short time I had to get back into shape.

So, given those two probably too long stories, yes, that energy stuff works. Keeping that glucose at a good level as much as possible will definitely help. I've been doing a lot of research on protein bars, looking at the nurtional stuff to see which ones will be the best for this upcoming season.

As for water, I've never drank more than a 3 liter Camelbak's worth of water and 1 whole 32 oz nalgene bottle of water in a day. Of course this is not counting the water I take in after I add the water to my food. So, as far as backpacking goes, no, I've never darnk more than six liters of water a day. It probably ends up being 5 liters at the most ever when all combined.

As I understand it there are two ways to bonk. The most common is when your muscles run out of glycogen. It makes running uphills particularly difficult, and of course the answer is to slow down or stop to burn more fat and less sugar, and to take some fast and slow carbs as needed, and of course water and electrolytes as needed also. Electrolytes should normally be in your diet, if you are eating real food and drinking plain water.

The other kind of bonking, which is rare, but more dangerous, is when you run out of liver and blood glycogen BEFORE you run out of muscle glycogen. This makes your brain malfunction, and makes you fall over, and is very dangerous. It can happen to certain people when they run at a certain pace over a certain distance, and can be prevented by taking some carbs as you run, but people should study what they need for what they do, and not neccessarily take what other people do that are likely doing something different, at a different pace. For example, slow marathon runners sometimes get into trouble by taking too much water, or too much salts, or too much sugars.

Honey is a good thing to carry when backpacking, but like anything else its a matter of balancing intake with consumption. I drink alot of tea while hiking, and add varying amounts of milk and honey, and tea, to my water consumption. In summer I will brink citrus powder also, but without sugar, so I can add honey as needed. For sodium and pottassium I look to see how much is in my food already, and then might add some to my citrus powder. I like some salt in my oatmeal sometimes also, but not usually, but now and then. I like being able to buy that sodium/pottassium salt. When hiking, most of my energy comes from the oatmeal I ate for breakfast, and the body fat I am burning, but I drink a little tea with milk and honey along the way also. Lunch is often light, mostly liquids. Supper is lots of soup with lentils. There is usually enough vitamins and minerals and sodium and pottasium in the foods already, but its good to check, and add stuff as needed. Usually makes it taste better also.

People that are really fit, or recently fit, seem most prone to bonking and so they really need to do their research to understand what they are doing. Dr. Tim Noakes, the Lore of Running, is a good read. Midnight Sun's posts on health and nutrition are always good to read, often tieing in sunstroke, heat stroke, hypothermia, with dehydration and glycogen depletion, and the additional risks of accidents or poor judgement.

A somewhat unique category I find myself in now, and others may, is when I combine hiking with weight loss. Just as the more atheletic outdoor enthusiasts needs to be more careful when pushing themselves harder, the dieting hiker needs to do likewise. Some days and surroundings and circumstances are safer than others to lose more weight, just as some days are safer than others for pushing yourself to your cardiovascular and energy limits. You can get into great shape, and lose a heck of alot of weight if needed, without taking undue risks, but you need to do some research and exercise some vigilance in order to be aware of the risks that you may unknowingingly be putting yourself through, when you push a little harder, or back off a little too much on the food consumption. Err on the side of caution, especially when going solo, or if the weather or topographical or other physical challenges are more extreme. Moderation is key. If an activity doesn't include some element of boredom, its probably too extreme.

Nice scenery helps, and bring a friend along if you can.

That's good advice daisy. I also always leave a little reserve energy at the end of the day. Usually if I even get to the point that I feel sluggish or tired at all I start to look for a place to stop and make camp...Knowing your limits could save yours or some else's life in the back country...sabre11004...

The first step that you take will be one of those that get you there !!!!!

I haven't bonked since ........this morning. Had a long workout yesterday then cyclecommuted to work this morning without breakfast. Ate two bananas, worked a few hours, then went for a run and BAM!!! I felt fine at first but within 15 minutes I was dead in the water. I never gave my glycogen stores a chance to rebuild from the day before even though I had a big dinner.

Beware: The bonk can hit you without warning. The good news is, it can be fixed literally within minutes by a candy bar or even some fruit juice. You just need to have something handy. Never bonked while backpacking because I always have food with me and like most people I tend to carry too much.

When I first started long distance bicycle racing the old hands told me this: "Eat before you get hungry and drink before you get thirsty". It was (is) very good advice.

I lost my appetite for ten days on the JMT. Couldn't even down a cup of Ramen for dinner. But my body became pretty efficient at burning its fat stores so I felt no real loss of energy. When I do it again this summer I'm going to experiment with a more liquid diet.

More than six liters? Sure. Sometimes much more.

I've actually been contemplating something a little more liquid as well recently. I've got this Myoplex protein stuff I drink everyday, more so on gym days, and it has just about everything you need to give that needed energy and nourishment and more. I don't know that I'd bring more than two pockets of the powder a day, if that, but I like the fact it would be fairly lightweight nutrition that requires only water.

I'm kind of curious as to the specific on your own thoughts on a more liquid diet while out on the trail if you don't mind sharing.

I have in fact used myoplex. I don't mind it for an occasional "extra" that I eat after a hard day. I.E. a
myoplex when stopping to camp, and then a regular dehydrated dinner a bit later. however, I don't find a myoplex any lighter than a dehydrated "real" dinner.

knowing from experience however, I can get pretty un-enamored with myoplex pretty quick. It's also pretty high protien, so not really what I would take while active to avoid a bonk.

I loose my appetite when it is hot until I cool down. When hiking in the Grand Canyon that may not happen until breakfast.

I eat a substantial breakfast like black beans & rice with pepperoni.

What I eat during the day is a cup of nuts and two protein shakes. Straight protein shakes taste like you may have confused your chalk bag with your food bag so they are half instant breakfast. The pint shake is instant breakfast, dried milk, and protein shake powder. No matter how hot I get I will always drink.

Dinner actually is optional, but my favorite before dinner cocktail is a fuzzy navel. A pint of half Tang and half orange Metamucil with 2 oz. of peach schnaps.

It's a good idea to know your limitations and what kind of fuel and how much you need for a given energy expenditure. I learned the hard way. Several years ago while biking a century, I made it all but about 8 miles from the finish and I didn't just bonk, I hit the wall. I was so spent that I wasn't sure I could continue. I pulled over into someones front lawn and just fell over when I came to a stop. I didn't even bother to unclip from my pedals. I wasn't sure I could even stop. It was in the high 90's and high humidity that day. I lay there for 20 minutes sucking the last of my hot water while the lactose sat my legs like stone. I managed to get up and very slowly finish the course as people passed me asking me if I was O.K. You can avoid hitting the wall but your time might suffer. I learned a great lesson about myself that day and what I could endure. Now, I'm older but I hydrate and eat to avoid even the bonk. I would rather be passed that suffer.

I suppose I should have been a little more detialed in my thoughts for Myoplex on the trail. I meant it for something to have alongside breakest and/or dinner when I've settled down for the evening. It sits a little heavy in the stomach to take on a break and then get up and start going again.

I can't say I agree on the losing a taste for it quickly. I only get the lovely variety pack and they don't taste too bad for protein shakes. But of course everyone has thier tastes, lol.

Plus I like the fact they hydrate me at the end or beginning of the day. The high protein is the perk as far as I'm concerned as well. Gotta make sure those muscles can repair themselves as efficiently as they can.

But I suppose I'll find out when the backpacking season comes 'round once more.