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#102026 - 10/11/08 05:00 AM Re: Sick on full strength gatorade? [Re: hikerduane]
tchiker Offline
member

Registered: 08/28/06
Posts: 162
Loc: Atlanta, GA, USA
My recent thinking is that there's nothing wrong with not having any appetite at the end of a hike. All that means is that you ate enough calories (and the right kind) to satisfy your body and it is no longer craving more energy. This seems like a good state to me (even though I do miss the super delicious post-hike meal a bit).

I eat and drink a whole lot when doing tough hikes. I keep my energy level up and I figure it is just better for my body in general.

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#102027 - 10/14/08 05:49 AM Re: Sick on full strength gatorade? [Re: tchiker]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
It's not necessary to be hungry after a workout if you have been loading while doing what ever it is that you do. But I find that after rest the hunger sets in. Eat when your hungry not just because it's dinner time. If you work out so much that you loose your appitite and are overworked or close to heat exaustion then you have another proplem. You need to rehydrate, rest and take on more fuel. I have been to the state of total exaustion and dehydration and had to rest for hours before I could function. Never again...
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#109554 - 01/17/09 09:42 PM Re: The bonk / hitting the wall [Re: 2brnot2b]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
Yeah, I've hit "the wall" a few times. The only hit the wall backpacking however a few times.

The first time was a few years ago in Alaska on my first backpacking trip while I lived there. Of course, work had me up at five in the morning and ruck marching out 5 miles on the crappiest rock road I've ever walked so we could go home for the weekend. I rolled my ankle over and over again on that stupid road and it had my feet burning, which is saying a lot because walking was the job pretty much. Then of course I had this trip planned for that day so it was get back to my room, change, grab my gear and buddy and dirve to the trail which was an hour away.

Then once we got to the trail, it was a 1,500 foot 5 mile hike constantly uphill until we reached the trail shelter, which we were determined to reach. We ate only once that whole day and by 10 o'clock at night(gotta love Alaska's long summer days for this reason) I was a walking zomby. It took us forever because my friend was a smoker and had to stop every so often as well, which was driving me nuts. Not to mention the trail was terrible the last 1 1/2 miles because it was climbing up rocks, hoping the rock cairns marking the trail hadn't been knocked over or anything. We pretty much stumlbed the last half mile to the shelter because we had been dumb about not eating enough not to mention we'd been up for a while as it was. That was a bad wall.

The last wall I did on purpose just to see where it was since I had had knee surgery 9 months earlier and had just got back into the excercise game a month earlier and hadn't dealt with the elevation of the Sawtooths here in Idaho in years. So I went a whole 6 or so hours above 7k-8.5k feet with just water until I hit the wall. Then when we stopped for water and to take a short break, I ate a protein bar and 20 minutes later I felt as good as I had at the beginning of the trail. On a side note, I really shocked the hell out of myself how easy it all was despite the short time I had to get back into shape.

So, given those two probably too long stories, yes, that energy stuff works. Keeping that glucose at a good level as much as possible will definitely help. I've been doing a lot of research on protein bars, looking at the nurtional stuff to see which ones will be the best for this upcoming season.

As for water, I've never drank more than a 3 liter Camelbak's worth of water and 1 whole 32 oz nalgene bottle of water in a day. Of course this is not counting the water I take in after I add the water to my food. So, as far as backpacking goes, no, I've never darnk more than six liters of water a day. It probably ends up being 5 liters at the most ever when all combined.
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In all things of nature there is something of the marvelous.-Aristotle

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#109572 - 01/18/09 11:35 AM Re: The bonk / hitting the wall [Re: MattnID]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
As I understand it there are two ways to bonk. The most common is when your muscles run out of glycogen. It makes running uphills particularly difficult, and of course the answer is to slow down or stop to burn more fat and less sugar, and to take some fast and slow carbs as needed, and of course water and electrolytes as needed also. Electrolytes should normally be in your diet, if you are eating real food and drinking plain water.

The other kind of bonking, which is rare, but more dangerous, is when you run out of liver and blood glycogen BEFORE you run out of muscle glycogen. This makes your brain malfunction, and makes you fall over, and is very dangerous. It can happen to certain people when they run at a certain pace over a certain distance, and can be prevented by taking some carbs as you run, but people should study what they need for what they do, and not neccessarily take what other people do that are likely doing something different, at a different pace. For example, slow marathon runners sometimes get into trouble by taking too much water, or too much salts, or too much sugars.

Honey is a good thing to carry when backpacking, but like anything else its a matter of balancing intake with consumption. I drink alot of tea while hiking, and add varying amounts of milk and honey, and tea, to my water consumption. In summer I will brink citrus powder also, but without sugar, so I can add honey as needed. For sodium and pottassium I look to see how much is in my food already, and then might add some to my citrus powder. I like some salt in my oatmeal sometimes also, but not usually, but now and then. I like being able to buy that sodium/pottassium salt. When hiking, most of my energy comes from the oatmeal I ate for breakfast, and the body fat I am burning, but I drink a little tea with milk and honey along the way also. Lunch is often light, mostly liquids. Supper is lots of soup with lentils. There is usually enough vitamins and minerals and sodium and pottasium in the foods already, but its good to check, and add stuff as needed. Usually makes it taste better also.


Edited by JAK (01/18/09 11:39 AM)

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#109574 - 01/18/09 12:11 PM Re: The bonk / hitting the wall [Re: JAK]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
People that are really fit, or recently fit, seem most prone to bonking and so they really need to do their research to understand what they are doing. Dr. Tim Noakes, the Lore of Running, is a good read. Midnight Sun's posts on health and nutrition are always good to read, often tieing in sunstroke, heat stroke, hypothermia, with dehydration and glycogen depletion, and the additional risks of accidents or poor judgement.

A somewhat unique category I find myself in now, and others may, is when I combine hiking with weight loss. Just as the more atheletic outdoor enthusiasts needs to be more careful when pushing themselves harder, the dieting hiker needs to do likewise. Some days and surroundings and circumstances are safer than others to lose more weight, just as some days are safer than others for pushing yourself to your cardiovascular and energy limits. You can get into great shape, and lose a heck of alot of weight if needed, without taking undue risks, but you need to do some research and exercise some vigilance in order to be aware of the risks that you may unknowingingly be putting yourself through, when you push a little harder, or back off a little too much on the food consumption. Err on the side of caution, especially when going solo, or if the weather or topographical or other physical challenges are more extreme. Moderation is key. If an activity doesn't include some element of boredom, its probably too extreme.

Nice scenery helps, and bring a friend along if you can. smile


Edited by JAK (01/18/09 12:17 PM)

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#109632 - 01/19/09 01:12 PM Re: The bonk / hitting the wall [Re: wandering_daisy]
sabre11004 Offline
member

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 513
Loc: Tennessee
That's good advice daisy. I also always leave a little reserve energy at the end of the day. Usually if I even get to the point that I feel sluggish or tired at all I start to look for a place to stop and make camp...Knowing your limits could save yours or some else's life in the back country...sabre11004...

The first step that you take will be one of those that get you there !!!!!
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#109677 - 01/19/09 11:25 PM Re: The bonk / hitting the wall [Re: 2brnot2b]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
I haven't bonked since ........this morning. Had a long workout yesterday then cyclecommuted to work this morning without breakfast. Ate two bananas, worked a few hours, then went for a run and BAM!!! I felt fine at first but within 15 minutes I was dead in the water. I never gave my glycogen stores a chance to rebuild from the day before even though I had a big dinner.

Beware: The bonk can hit you without warning. The good news is, it can be fixed literally within minutes by a candy bar or even some fruit juice. You just need to have something handy. Never bonked while backpacking because I always have food with me and like most people I tend to carry too much.

When I first started long distance bicycle racing the old hands told me this: "Eat before you get hungry and drink before you get thirsty". It was (is) very good advice.

I lost my appetite for ten days on the JMT. Couldn't even down a cup of Ramen for dinner. But my body became pretty efficient at burning its fat stores so I felt no real loss of energy. When I do it again this summer I'm going to experiment with a more liquid diet.

More than six liters? Sure. Sometimes much more.


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#109700 - 01/20/09 01:08 PM Re: The bonk / hitting the wall [Re: Trailrunner]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By Trailrunner

I lost my appetite for ten days on the JMT. Couldn't even down a cup of Ramen for dinner. But my body became pretty efficient at burning its fat stores so I felt no real loss of energy. When I do it again this summer I'm going to experiment with a more liquid diet.




I've actually been contemplating something a little more liquid as well recently. I've got this Myoplex protein stuff I drink everyday, more so on gym days, and it has just about everything you need to give that needed energy and nourishment and more. I don't know that I'd bring more than two pockets of the powder a day, if that, but I like the fact it would be fairly lightweight nutrition that requires only water.

I'm kind of curious as to the specific on your own thoughts on a more liquid diet while out on the trail if you don't mind sharing.
_________________________
In all things of nature there is something of the marvelous.-Aristotle

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#109702 - 01/20/09 01:20 PM Re: The bonk / hitting the wall [Re: MattnID]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

I have in fact used myoplex. I don't mind it for an occasional "extra" that I eat after a hard day. I.E. a
myoplex when stopping to camp, and then a regular dehydrated dinner a bit later. however, I don't find a myoplex any lighter than a dehydrated "real" dinner.

knowing from experience however, I can get pretty un-enamored with myoplex pretty quick. It's also pretty high protien, so not really what I would take while active to avoid a bonk.


Edited by phat (01/20/09 01:33 PM)
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#109709 - 01/20/09 02:15 PM Re: The bonk / hitting the wall [Re: MattnID]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
I loose my appetite when it is hot until I cool down. When hiking in the Grand Canyon that may not happen until breakfast.

I eat a substantial breakfast like black beans & rice with pepperoni.

What I eat during the day is a cup of nuts and two protein shakes. Straight protein shakes taste like you may have confused your chalk bag with your food bag so they are half instant breakfast. The pint shake is instant breakfast, dried milk, and protein shake powder. No matter how hot I get I will always drink.

Dinner actually is optional, but my favorite before dinner cocktail is a fuzzy navel. A pint of half Tang and half orange Metamucil with 2 oz. of peach schnaps.
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"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."
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#109712 - 01/20/09 04:49 PM Re: The bonk / hitting the wall [Re: JAK]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
It's a good idea to know your limitations and what kind of fuel and how much you need for a given energy expenditure. I learned the hard way. Several years ago while biking a century, I made it all but about 8 miles from the finish and I didn't just bonk, I hit the wall. I was so spent that I wasn't sure I could continue. I pulled over into someones front lawn and just fell over when I came to a stop. I didn't even bother to unclip from my pedals. I wasn't sure I could even stop. It was in the high 90's and high humidity that day. I lay there for 20 minutes sucking the last of my hot water while the lactose sat my legs like stone. I managed to get up and very slowly finish the course as people passed me asking me if I was O.K. You can avoid hitting the wall but your time might suffer. I learned a great lesson about myself that day and what I could endure. Now, I'm older but I hydrate and eat to avoid even the bonk. I would rather be passed that suffer.
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#109721 - 01/20/09 08:00 PM Re: The bonk / hitting the wall [Re: phat]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
I suppose I should have been a little more detialed in my thoughts for Myoplex on the trail. I meant it for something to have alongside breakest and/or dinner when I've settled down for the evening. It sits a little heavy in the stomach to take on a break and then get up and start going again.

I can't say I agree on the losing a taste for it quickly. I only get the lovely variety pack and they don't taste too bad for protein shakes. But of course everyone has thier tastes, lol.

Plus I like the fact they hydrate me at the end or beginning of the day. The high protein is the perk as far as I'm concerned as well. Gotta make sure those muscles can repair themselves as efficiently as they can.

But I suppose I'll find out when the backpacking season comes 'round once more.
_________________________
In all things of nature there is something of the marvelous.-Aristotle

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