I have purchased a decent hiking staff and have been using it on my training hikes to learn how to use it. I plan to use it on my upcoming rafting / hiking trip, next week, and hike as much as the trip will allow. However, the outfiiter I will be going with, discourages (not forbids) the use of poles, stating that people become too reliant on them and a misplaced pole plant could result in a fall. Is this a common train of thought or is it just a way to minimize space and weight on the rafts? It seems the consensus on this forum is heavily for the use of poles.

The Grand Canyon Private Boaters Association have a Yahoo group. You should join that group and ask your question there.

http://www.gcpba.org/

My answer is maybe. I would not take poles for a Lees Ferry start. However, I would not walk down to Phantom Ranch without poles.

Just my opinion.

Thanks for the tip but it is pretty quiet over there. Most questions appear to go unanswered except for the request for additional rafters on a permitted trip.

My question isn't really Grand Canyon specific, I just happen to be going there. Just trying to get a response on my outfitter's recommendation.

I would love to know what sort of facts that outfitter bases his opinion on. I highly doubt that there is any kind of statistical evidence to back him up.

It could also be argued that the use of poles has prevented many falls. I know they have for me.

That being said, I agree that it is possible to overuse poles in some cases. They should be a temporary aid on steep and/or uneven terrain, not a crutch. It is my opinion that poles partially take over the job of the secondary stabilizing muscles of the lower extremities thus hampering proper development.

try this link. this is a yahoo grand canyon groups

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/

heres a link to a bunch of canyon groups. they should be able to give the skinny

http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=canyoneering&submit=Search

Trailrunner,

I think we agree that the outfitter is blowing smoke about becoming dependent. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> However, outfitters are highly motivated to provide a quality experience.

The hikes from the river are likely to be with a small pack. Some will be scambles that require the use of hands.

I would not hike from the rim to the river with a heavy pack without poles. On rolling terrain I use the poles about half the time. I prefer to climb without poles.

The outfitter's advice may be correct, but for the wrong reason.

I just hiked rim to rim last week and would not have made it without my poles.
I have bad knees and the hike down was brutal in the mud and stair steps.

I have backpacked (with up to 40 lb loads) with and without trekking poles. I hiked to the Havasu Falls (part of the Grand Canyon) without them. And I wished that I had poles for both the downhill and uphill parts of the hike. I used them for 35 miles of the John Muir Trail in Yosemite and loved them. Using your arms to help pull you up on the ascents takes some of the burden off your legs. While they do the same on the descents, you also get the added stability when you're top heavy. I don't tend to use them on flat terrain as much so that my hands are free for taking pictures. However, they are still a benefit on flat trails that are full of roots or are rocky. Ignore the outfitter. I've never felt reliant on them to the point where I'd be ungainly without them. I have Leki Makalu classic poles and I can't remember the carbide tips slipping off of a placement. Even on the descent from Half Dome to Yosemite valley.

If not forbidden, use em. You might cover the tips so you don't puncture the raft. I retro fitted a hardened steel spike into the end of my staff.

I agree 100% with Trailrunner. I think this guy is just forcing his personal dislike of trekking poles on you. Some people like them, and some hate them. I have never once taken a fall because of my trekking poles, yet they have saved me from countless falls, trips, slips, and dips. I say if you like your staff and it suits your hiking style well, bring it!

Should be OK as long as you don't plant your pole into thin air off the edge of the trail and keep reaching for solid grounnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd.

I am not sure what is meant about too reliant but it makes me think of someone that may not be very mobile and is virtually using them to stay upright, like canes, crutches or a walker. The outfitter may not want to get into a position where they have to hike with someone like that and may have had experience in the past dealing with a difficult situation.

I've used poles for miles, and carried them on my pack for miles when I opted not to use them. I have not packed them on river trips.

The only issues that come to mind for me are 1) catching one between a couple rocks, in a fracture, or on some vegetation and throwing off my balance. 2) having them hinder my grip by being too lazy to stash them in my pack on a hands and feet scramble.

the outfitter is probably just saying that as poles are a pain to pack on a raft, unless you have a break down version that you could pack while protecting the tips so that they don't puncture the boat.

At least, being a rafter and a hiker, and someone who hears enough stories about outfitters being full of it...that's what I think.

Technique is pretty critical to most effective use of hiking poles, but I guess we all know that, eh?

Just returned. No problem with the staff. It is a four segement pole with the rubber tip and it easily fit into my day use dry bag. As someone else put it, I didn't feel reliant on it but it sure did ease the strain on my knees, especially climbing Bright Angel at the end of our trip. I don't think I would ever go to GC without one or maybe two next time.

Poles can be helpful on most any terrain regardless of steepness. They allow the input of arm muscles for greater efficiency. Anyway, given that there are few sidewalks in the wilderness, most any trail hike can benefit from the stability of poles.



Huh?? Who's out there with undeveloped muscles?

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.



I never said that poles give you undeveloped muscles. But they can lead to underdeveloped muscles. Allow me to elaborate:

The legs have many different muscles. Each has its own specific job to do. Some move you forward, or backward. Others keep everything in alignment. Without them your bones would move in many directions instead of the plane you want them to move in. The peroneus longus is a good example. Without it, your foot would roll inward much more easily. It stabilizes and balances the ankle joint every time you take a step. All the squats, calf raises and lunges in the world are not going to strengthen it much. It takes specific exercises.....or lots of walking, to strengthen it.

But when you walk with poles, they partially take over the job of the stabilizing muscles. The poles are now balancing you, not the muscles that nature intended. When a muscle isn't used, or used as much, it does not develop as it should.

There's a thread about rolled ankles around here somewhere. Read the remedies. I will go so far as to say that the overuse of poles is counterproductive to strong ankles. Not to mention hampering proper proprioception. Read up on any ankle strengthening drill involving proprioception. You do them by balancing, unaided, on one ankle at a time. Pole use is just the opposite. The poles do the balancing for you.

Believe me, I'm not pulling this stuff out of my a$$. I worked hands on in physical therapy for over four years. I'm no expert but I do have experience.