Teaching dogs about poisonous snakes?

My dog saw his first rattler this weekend. He almost stepped on it. Acutally it was in the trail and the dog jumped it like he would jump over a rock. It started to rattle after he cleared it. The rattling tail did not seem to make the dog nervous.
How would you train a dog to fear this?

Sorry to say I have no useful advice on this, don't have a dog.

The only poisonous snakes I've ever come across have been Vipers, near my home near London.

I have to say; that rattle-snake looks bloody terrifying.

Here in Arizona, a lot of local dog trainers offer rattlesnake aversion classes for dogs. The classes involve a shock collar and live rattlesnakes and are quite effective.

Most dogs do not instinctively avoid rattlers; they are curious and will approach a rattlesnake even when the snake has all of the warnings going. Around here it is fairly common for dogs to be bitten; the vet bill generally runs around $3,000.

Snake aversion classes usually run about $50; to me that is a bargain. Our dog won't come within ten feet of a rattler now.

You can also get them immunized against the snake poison - probably a lot cheaper than a vet afterwards. We used to have a collie that wold tear the heads off copperheads.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jim is correct that you can get them immunized, however that only works with specific snakes and not with others. I don't believe there is a series against the Mohave which is very deadly and numerous in our area. Most folks that I train with use the 'aversion' technique to protect sporting dogs. No one wants to lose a pet to a snake bite....least of all, a dog that is valued at 10 to 20 thousand dollars.

I have had my lab vacinated and it cost me $52.00(2 shots a month apart at $26.00 each). They say it really only gives you a little more time to get to the vet and they usually don't need anti venom and some of the other really expensive treatment. That being said, we have an appointment in July for the aversion training. In so cal the go to guy seems to be Pat Calaghan. They teach them to smell. hear , and see the snakes. As for the electronic collar, I love mine and always get compliments on how well behaved my one year old lab is.

www.patrickcallaghan.com/test.htm

Thanks for all the great input.

That sounds llike a great idea.

My best friend/hunting buddy is a Veterinarian that treats 'little buddy's' on a daily basis that were so loved by their owners that the owner failed to adequately prepare them for the real world. Lack of a solid 'recall', 'sit', 'down', (with diversions)... can and do result in dogs hit by cars, dog fights, strangers being bitten or strangers shooting dog. All of which I know for a fact have come to his practice. You were the one that asked the question. The answer is not sitting near the snake singing Kumbaya....the dog doesn't speak english and (at least in my case) would get sick of my singing in a hurry. Wild canine have a natural aversion to snakes, if they don't...'Mother Nature' removes them from the gene pool. When a bitch needs to teach her pups something NOT to do....she growls and bites them in the face (not hard enough to draw blood but enough to put the fear of God into them). No one suggested you 'kick', 'beat', or 'hurt' your little buddy...but if you wish to save his life (or even your own)...............seek help and train.


Also...I spoke with my Vet friend and he tells me that most North American snakes have similar toxins and the immunization series is effective against most (not all) NA snakes. Mohave's have two types of toxin...varying in quantity in various populations and he said that there are no known survivors to Az Coral snake bites....then....laughing he said he was unaware of any dogs bitten by Corals as their mouths are so small. He also stated that even with the series, the dog will probably become very sick if bitten but should survive.

Well put, 6B... done correctly, shock collars can be effective tools in aversion training. If you do it correctly, the dog will never connect a human to the shock elicited when they get too close to something they should avoid. It isn't painful in any way that is traumatizing, but it is uncomfortable enough to get their attention. I used shock training (and later a shock fence) on a dog that I had gotten as a young adult from the pound. She showed signs of having been physically abused by her previous owner (cowered to yelling or expressions of rage), but still responded well to the shock collar and never made the connection between the shock and me. Judicious use can be humane. If it makes you uncomfortable, I suspect it would be ok to reward your dog with a treat/praise when they return to you after the shock. My guess is you wouldn't have to use the shock too many times.

MNS

Here is a picture of him -he likes to sleep on me. I got my camera out and took his picture one night while he was sleeping.



Heres a good collar - plenty of power. I bet this would do it. It has 127 levels of shocking ability, and a comfortable collar. And with a one mile range, how could you go wrong? I think it is water proof as well.

http://www.pet-super-store.com/html/Dogtra-3500-Super-X.html

So many options to consider. Not sure where to start, but can't wait to get started. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

You're certainly entitled to your preference for how you wish to train your dog, however I do not appreciate your judgement that those of us who choose to use other methods are patently abusive toward our animals.

I have had a pet bitten by a copperhead - she certainly became aversive after her experience. Luckily we were able to rush her to a vet for treatment. I don't know what would have happened had we been backcountry, hours from a vet. Once she healed from her wounds she gave wide berth to anything in her path that even remotely resembled a snake. Had she been trained to avoid snakes she might have avoided a great deal of pain and suffering. At the time (30 years ago) it never occurred to me that you could teach dogs to avoid snakes.

Good luck in your quest.

MNS

P.S. We did not kill the snake that bit her - it had already been run over by a car and was dying. I have lived knee deep in copperheads and cotton mouths and never once killed a snake. Snakes have their place, as do other wild creatures, and like other wild creatures they don't deserve to die just because they cross our path - or we cross theirs.

HootyHoo,

I respect your viewpoint. I'm in agreement, using a shock collar should never involve hurting a dog. My husband and I adopted a beautiful springer spaniel. Although we took her to obedience schools, and she obeyed beautifully around home, when we got out into the backcountry, her genes overtook her and she was a runner. It rapidly became clear that we had to do something to keep her from running in order to save her life. Dear Husband said we had to go to a shock collar. I said over my dead body. A 25 year marriage was on the line. Finally he suggested I do the following experiment. I put the shock collar on my wrist. And then starting at setting One, I proceeded to push the shock button and then up it by 1 setting. I had to reach the upper end of the settings to even feel the shock. And the first time I even felt it, it didn't feel so much like a shock as an alert. In no way was it painful at that level. The next level I felt it, and while it had my attention, I still wouldn't characterize it as overtly painful... more discomfort. It does has to be strong enough so that the dog can feel it, and get its attention sharply, but it should never be so strong that it truly harms the dog. By testing it out on myself, I then understood this concept. We followed the same procedure on the dog. One setting at a time. It took until setting 9 (out of 30) to get our beloved and very gentle Maggie (a.k.a. Rocket Girl) to even look up from the couch and notice anything. One setting higher is the setting we put it on. I would never use a higher setting as that would simply be cruel. At the correct setting, it has the desired effect as an strong alert; our wonderful speedy girl knows that she has to come back when she gets the alert. Over time, we've successfully trained her and the collar is no longer needed. I also know that if we hadn't gone this route, the coyotes would have gotten her long ago. The hardest part was having to tell my husband he was right. Hope this information helps! Carol

(edited to add this) p.s. The springer spaniel in my avatar was an earlier dog, Katie, who died after a long, happy life and many, many backpacking trips She intinctively knew to stay away from snakes - - we didn't teach her that.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I think you are wrong. Personally, I feel that it is far kinder and certainly more responsible to teach a dog to avoid snakes using mild corrections, than it is to just let them get bitten and then let them suffer through a painful recovery.

Training a dog using corrections is no more abuse than is disciplining a child. Discipline can be abusive, sure, but humanely done, discipline gives a dog a feeling for its place in the world and actually makes them feel more secure. And yes, Cesar Milan does use discipline that simulates the way a mother dog corrects one of her pups; by nipping the little bugger. You might want to read one of his books. A shock collar is less painful than a nip: I have been nipped and I have been shocked; don't like either but much prefer the latter.

This is not the place to discuss the pros and cons of the E-collar. There are forums with literally thousands of members in every discipline of dog competition known to man for that. You say that your pet 'trusts' you....I would not, if you are going to take him into areas that have the possibility of that type of injury without some form of preventative measures. Sitting and talking to him doesn't cut it in my book. You, as a responsible owner, need to take measures to insure his safety and I could care less how you do it.

I find it amusing that you cite Millan as your model trainer. He is heavily criticized in many circles as heavy handed and inhumane, with a little research you will find that information. I actually agree with much (certainly not all) of what he teaches and have or currently apply many of the same techniques. These are not revolutionary techniques however, they are as old as Koehler, Whitney and Wolters. Leash corrections, establishing Alpha hierarchy, fatigueing dogs prior to training and Alpha Rolls, all of which he uses have been around since before Millan was born. In fact he is currently fighting several law suits for plagiarism. If you are suggesting that (as opposed to Vets who are money driven) Millan is not... I would direct you to his site and maybe you have the time to count the number of items and services he is selling along with his shows. Don't misunderstand me, I have no problem with the man....he has found a way to successfully market himself but it's basically the same package....different wrapper.

I don't know where you have gotten the idea that a 'shock' collar is used to 'shock' a dog into submission. It is not used in that fashion. It is used when the dog has already been taught an action and is then applied at its lowest level (not highest) recognizable by the dog to realize that he has made an error. In the competitions that I participate in, any sign of abuse or excessive pressure on the animal results in immediate disqualification.

Take this for what it's worth in your life Hooty. Many years ago I lost a son to drowning. I had told all of them to stay away from the water near our property many times. I have always blamed myself for not being more forceful. The next time I caught another son playing near the same water he got his butt paddled...I never had to do it again.

HH,
Cesar did have one episode where he used a shock collar in training a dog. It was on a ranch in Texas and the dog would chase the truck or tractor and was in danger of getting run over. After about an hour of training the dog no longer chased the vehicles.
His method didn't appear to be inhumane.

I have trained several dogs and have not had to use a shock collar, but in this case (snakes) I wouldn't hesitate to use it. In the regions of west Texas where my family lives, dealing with rattlesnakes is a daily occurance and sometimes life or death (50 miles from town).

I agree with what the other posters have said.

Consider all options if you truly love your dog.

Tango

You have just described in detail what is known in the dog training world as "collar conditioning" and must be done to each dog to determine their own level of sensitivity.

I don't want to get into the middle of the pros and cons of dog training-not my area of expertise, but we don't want to see this thread devolve into a name-calling contest.

Opinions are fine; name calling is not, so some moderation and self-censoring is in order from all involved.

OK....per TD's instructions, lets lighten things up a little and learn to Cicada proof our dogs. This is how it's done. I used a similar technique on some of my old girl friends years ago but the bags weren't mesh. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Not too picky regards,

Please keep in mind that my comment above was not aimed at 6B in particular just because I replied to last post on the topic, but the general tone of the thread.

Contentious topics like this one are best argued by presenting factual arguments pro and con, not attaching labels to the proponents of one view or another.

My bad. I decided to edit my posts to conform to everyones line of thinking on this issue. I have no opinion on dog training that I would consider of any value here.
later tater

I think that what you can see from all of the above posts is that shock collar aversion is the only effective training aid. The other suggestions only help if the dog is bitten, but do not teach the dog to avoid a snake.

My prior dog (my current one is too young) was de-snaked (which is what we call it here in Southeast Texas). They first took my dog out and placed him about 10 feet away from a defanged rattlesnake. He was curious and went to inspect (the dogs can smell snakes). That rattler struck my dog right on the nose and at the same time he got a shock. In that way the dog knows to associate snakes with an unpleasant shock. Then I stood about 75 feet away from my dog with the rattlesnake in between us. I called for my dog and instead of coming straight to me, he made a wide circle to reach me. Took about 10 minutes for all of the actual training.

A couple of years later, I took him out again for refresher training, but he would never get near that snake, so he was never shocked again either. He remembered.

You may consider this to be inhumane, but I think of it as necessary tough love. Would you prefer your dog to be shocked once (or twice) as opposed to actually being bitten and the associated pain. It is cheap insurance. Do you think your children liked it when they got the needle for their vaccinations?

A side benefit is that now your dog will realize a snake is near and will be able to alert you so that you will also avoid being bitten.

I respectfully disagree. There's always more than one way to train a dog and the results are generally proportionate to the amount of effort put into the training. I have read of cases where a shock collar malfunctioned and badly burned a dog, plus I have always gotten good results with what could be called "lower impact" techniques.

My female Weim had a natural aversion to snakes and she seemed able to smell them from around 10 feet. She never crossed paths with a venomous snake, but several times I saw her stop dead in her tracks and cautiously walk around what turned out to be a garter snake. She wanted nothing to do with it.

My male seems to fear nothing and his predatory drive is very strong. I've yet to see how he reacts to a snake.

I was an electrician for 25 years before my midlife crisis and joined the Sheriff's Department full time. I have been shocked gazillions of times. During training, I volunteered to "take a ride" on the Taser. They had two large guys hold my arms while they shot two barbed darts into my back (the darts have barbs like fish hooks). Then I got five long seconds of pulsing electric fury. The point is, I survived and have no effects from all of those shocks.(don't listen to my wife <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

My first lab loved to escape from the yard and eventually got ran over on the main road. That was the smartest dog I ever owned. I trained her without an electronic caller. She was trained to whistle,voice and arm signals. But she did not associate cars with getting killed or hurt. Much like dogs don't associate snakes with getting bit and dying. If you have ever seen the effects of snakebite, then you never want to put your "best friend" through that. My second lab also liked to escape and I was bound and determined not to bury another friend. I tried higher fences but she could dig like a gopher and climb chain link fences. I finally tried a electric fence wire. The first time I she tested it, it was just an uncomfortable anoyance but only slowed her down. I traded it in for a livestock model for five miles of range fence. It only took one try for her and she never went near the fence again. I turned it off after a few weeks as it wasn't necessary. That lab we finally had to put down when she was seventeen years old.

My latest lab is a year old and into everything and as most labs is very strong willed. On the advice of a trusted friend (actually two friends), I purchased a electronic training collar for her. I researched them and read the reviews before I plunked down the two hundred dollars or so. Mine has 16 levels, momentary and continous buttons as well as vibrate. As a result, I and my wife can controll her and keep her safe. It doesn't hurt her at all. It is jus a reminder. Heck I test it on my wrist. It is such a joy to own a well behaved dog. Our kids are all grown and out of the house so the dog is my wife's baby. I on the other hand want to train her for hunting and as a fishing companion. We have already taken her bping but it was late fall and the snakes were not a problem. As I said , I have had her vacinated and have an appointment for the aversion training.

The question that started this thread was teaching your dog about avoiding poisonous snakes. I have not heard of any other methods besides the aversion training or trusting luck that your dog won't be bitten or will just naturally leave snakes alone. Well my lab is a lizard chasing fool and has even chased a small racer snake(not poisonous). The way I see it, you either leave your dog in the house or do everything to keep it safe. If you do otherwise then you're fooling your self and playing poker with your dog.

Hooty...you have no worries with me...hell, my wife calls me worse than that on a nearly daily basis and I still sleep with her! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I did some research for you today because I thought like Paddy that there would be some alternative methods for aversion training. I was sure that being in active upland bird dog and snake bite country that I would be successful, however, I read till I was blue in the face and didn't find a single one that didn't use the e-collar. Many emphasized the care they took not to use unnecessary force but they used a collar none the less. The most renouned trainer in these parts is Patrick Callaghan but you are not going to send your pup all the way to Norcal. IMHO if you are going to take him out and knowing your feelings on the subject, I would have him immunized and proceed with caution. If/when you both encounter another snake emphasize in no uncertain terms (voice wise) your displeasure at his curiosity. Paddy did not define "lower impact" but I would guess that we would both agree that this fits that definition. The problem with 'lower impact' training with many dogs and nearly all 'type A' personality dogs (and that's all I work with) is that it will fail you about 99% of the time in pressure situations. The things the two of you can do as a team in your backyard are incredible...take the same dog to a competition with hundreds of people, dogs, retrieves being made in front of you, guns going off.....you are not allowed a leash, collar of any type, not even a harsh word and the things your well trained pooch can do can become down right dumbfounding. I've seen newbies that thought "the heck with an e-collar....I need an exorcist"

Have fun.

Forgot....Paddy mentioned e-collar failure, I have also read of failures but have never witnessed one (other than not to operate at all) through numerous applications. I am confident that those reports were in early models, I recently tryed a VERY early model on myself....it was large, the transmitter was huge and it had only one setting and that setting was *hot*. Modern equipment has 30-40 settings, most trainers rarely use more that the 'nick' setting, so it is nothing like the 'good ole days'.

I suspect that Hootyhoo's problem with the electric collar is due to the fact that this device is one of the most abused training aids--in the hands of an unskilled amateur, it can do horrible things to dogs. Many dogs have become aggressive or neurotic (leading to fear-biting) due to misuse of the electric collar. However, there are times when the e-collar is necessary, and this is one of them--it's the equivalent of spanking your little child who runs out into the street. Neither the curious dog with the rattlesnake nor the little child with a speeding car coming down the street is liable to get a second chance, and carefully controlled aversion therapy is your only hope of saving a life.

Another commonly abused tool is the training or choke collar--my-daughter-the-veterinarian, while in vet school, treated numerous dogs with a bruised or even ruptured esophagus. Her (and my) preference is for the Premier Pet Products Gentle Leader head collar, but that one (if jerked hard) can injure the dog, too. But just because a method can be abused doesn't mean it can't be useful in carefully controlled conditions!

If I were in rattlesnake country, I'd want my dog to have the aversion therapy, too--but only at the hands of an expert.

We wonder the same thing about our 1 yr Cattle Dog. She saw a Bull Snake and didn't seem to want to mess with it.

But we have plenty of Rattlers here!

Dan

UPDATE; I had my one year old lab trained yesterday at Pat Calaghan's kennel. The dog is fine and I saw no "abuse" whatsoever. My dog let out one little yip on the first application of the collar when she put her nose approx. 6" from the muzzled snake. I believe the only time the stimulus is turned up to a higher level is that first encounter. The trainer is extremely knowledgable and atuned to the dog. The trainer is not the one leading the dog but is watching the dog to see every time the dog smells,sees or hears the snake. The moment the dog is aware of the snake, the stimulus is applied. I have and have used the e-collar and can say by experience that the level had been turned down for the remainder of the session. The trick is to to "remind" and reenforce the negative experience everytime the dog becomes aware of the snake. It takes a highly trained and talented person with quick reflexes to do this. The training takes only a few minutes and the dog is handled by trained assistants while another assistant stays with the owner and explains what is happening while you observe from a distance. The final test is at the end they put your dog on a 50 foot lead. A snake is placed between you and the dog and you are asked to call your dog. Then they see if how the dog reacts when it becomes aware of the snake. Well my dog and all of the others I observed used just about all of that 50 foot lead to to go as far around that rattling snake as possible. I saw all types of dogs there from scruffy little mutts to bulldogs and dalmations. None seemd to have any ill effects from the training and all did not want to be anywhere near that snake. Again the whole session was only a few minutes long. My dog has hurt herself more stepping on a sticker. Definately much much better than being bitten by a snake and the aftermath.