Ul & Mainstream

Moderators if you have any guts you will not edit, delete, or change this post

While out on a recent PCT section hike in Oregon, I was discussing with a friend the advantage of being light on the trail and how it allows us to get out past the Tourons. Which makes for a nice hike because of the fact that we can go further into the backcountry due to our lighter loads. Plus without a lot of gear we also leave a more eco-friendly and smaller footprint. We were discussing the fact that maybe backpacking is a dying breed as well. But I had to disagree some what, because I see more and more lightweight equipment in more mass media markets.
This quite frankly makes me upset. I like being light because (yes I’ll admit) there is a certain gloat factor in it. I like it because I can get away from the people because they can not get as far. I like it because they do not know about it and this gives me a window of opportunity to do my second favorite thing, which is, teach. I feel as if this is our own little world, and that membership is required. I like keeping it clandestine and cottage. We are a minority of elitist, a pure society, one who is eager to help when asked, one who is more aware and sensitive of the over populated back country areas. But one must come to us for the information; it is not easily accessible, until now.
Imagine my disgust when I saw Dr. Ryan Jordan’s book Lightweight Backpacking & Camping: A Field Guide to Wilderness Hiking Equipment, Technique, and Style at of all places the Wal-Mart for the outdoors REI. Before I go on and start getting flamed, and having people come back and say, well you were in REI so what does that make you? What was I doing at REI? Simple, living up to there Return Every Item policy and giving back to them something that had been sitting on my shelf for 3 years due to malfunction that is related to over engineering.
Getting back to my point. How dare you, Dr. Jordan. You are not allowing this book to be sold because you want to spread the gospel, you are beginning to do just what Jansport, Gregory, and Kelty did, they started out small but then sold out the corporate machine in the name of Money!!!! You Dr. Jordan have done the same thing in this case. I feel as if you are not desirous of teaching, or helping “Joe Snuffy” on how to go light. It is the thought of the potential selling power that comes to REI and their catering to the “Joe Snuffy’s” of the world. Not only will people buy your book (which I bought through BPL more than a year ago) but because of all the “gear plugs” in it they will then go to the BPL site and buy more of your products. A very crafty marketing scheme I must say so myself, but and evil and typical corporate one, none the less. You yourself said “My wife, Stephanie, and I have renewed our commitment not only to simplify our lifestyle, but to renew and engage the relationships with people we love the most-including each other.” (1) You are not doing this by selling out Dr. Jordan. If there is one thing I have learned from people who have money or are seeking money it is that there is never enough. I beg of Dr. Jordan keep your business and this industry pure like it has been and needs to be. Do not loose sight of the mission, the movement, and the people. Do not sell out like the predecessors before you did. Who now are out sourced and of cheap quality, or over engineered products to mainstream companies.
What is even more disheartening is in another section of the REI store I saw a ton of light my fire gear, and the once BPL only long handle Ti spoon, which ok I can understand that, it is readily available and not to industry specific, neither is the ESBIT and ESBIT stove that was in the same row either. But next to that were about 10 Vargo Titanium alcohol stoves and a quart can size of denatured alcohol. Outrage, I say, outrage. What is next will we se ULA, SMD, GG, MoGo and others in mainstream out-door stores?
Imagine with me people that the nest time you head out and go to you favorite get-away place that you know, no one else can ideally get to because it is too far, or is not very well known to begin with. You get there and there is another person there, with lightweight gear, that they were able to purchase at REI or some other mainstream outdoor store. Not only did they buy the gear there, but they got the information from there as well. They did not have to go through the “rites of passage” they did not have to dig, research, explore, and find the information and knowledge themselves, they bought it!!!! And now a once under populated area is now over populated, all because Ul went. mainstream. Also when Ul goes mainstream the cottage industries begin to loose their positions on the niche market and therefore leads to them having to close shop. Which then puts them out of an income and forces them back into corporate society, and we loose quality hand crafted (in most cases) equipment.
People I beg of you lets keep our sport, our world, our society pure, let us not cater to the cooperate world, allow us to teach them via the means we always have, lets keep from becoming them majority. Let us not loose sight of our intent and allow others to purchase our knowledge in a department store for the sake of making another buck.
KEEP IT PURE !!!!!!!


(1.) Jordan, Ryan Unfullfilled drams in the Western Artic. Backpacking Light, iss7 pg.53.2007


Disclaimer:. I do not care how much heat this brings, but this has been keeping me up at night, I felt as if I had to say something, even if I am only one voice.

Don't sprain your arm trying to pat yourself on the back. You're not elite, you're a jerk.

I'd love to see the pioneers of the lightweight revolution succeed and their products to be spread to the corners of the earth, and yes, for them to be able to support their families on the fruits of their labor. Corporations aren't evil, pretension is. If you want to make something and only sell it to people who have joined some cult through bizarre rituals on the most spot imaginable, feel free to do so, but don't trash those who have actually taken a risk to create something new. Keeping "this society pure" sounds like fascism to me.

And all that being said, I don't want to see your post deleted even though I totally disagree with it.

Mugs, I'm not going to flame you because I understand how you feel. But please consider this: Going light is nothing new, it is just new to you. The only things that have changed are the various technologies involved. Serious backpackers have always carried light packs. I have on my bookshelf a book published by the Sierra Club titled "Going Light With Backpack and Burro". It covers a lot of the same basic lightweight ideas that are presently in vogue yet the book was published in 1953. So, clearly, the lightweight concept was alive then but the technology was much more primitive. As an example, I hiked the JMT in 1954 with a base weight pack of about 15 pounds; I didn't think of it as light or heavy, I just took what I felt I needed after careful consideration and left the rest behind. I would carry about the same weight today but would be much more comfortable due to improved technology.

Over the years since then, I have seen the same thing you are seeing; a lot of your favorite places being visited by more and more people. In fact, your so called "mainstream" backpackers really didn't start appearing until the mid-60's when the baby boomers discovered the outdoors and according to some pundits "invented" backpacking. Suddenly backpacking became a consumer sport rather than a cult activity and the gear provided to meet the demand increased exponentially; so did the competetive consumerism involved in its purchase.

But on an optimistic note, I have read that overall, back country use is declining somewhat as obesity, motor sports and computer games have their effect on the population of backpacking-aged people. I have read somewhere that the average backpacker is now an approximately 50-year-old male; comparatively few backpackers are in their 20's and 30's. This may be one reason that lightweight backpacking appears to be making a comeback.

However, I am afraid that sharing your favorite spots with the arivisté and their new "storebought" lightweight backpacking gear and book learning is something you will have to learn to live with. You'll do this the same way I had to reluctantly learn to share with the people who started after I did: including people like you <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

I can't say I totally agree with you. I mean, yes, people may go corporate with their products this makes them more readily availiable to a wider base of consumers, but so what? Is it so terrible that more people get into backpacking? I mean, the only people that will get into it and stick with it are the people who really enjoy and appreciate it. What's the harm in that? Maybe it'll help people want to preserve the wilderness a little more so that the backpacking opportunities don't become surrounded by buildings and cars instead of trees and mountains.

I do understand your point on people simply reading things and getting them right away instead of learning about them as they get more into the activity. I personally like doing the research and learning myself rather than reading it, but you have to start somewhere. Even when you read something right out of the book, you still have to figure out what does and does not work for you. It isn't like everything you'll ever need to know and use is just handed to you in a gift wrapped basket.

My first pack was a Kelty Redwing 3100 I used and still use for overnnighters and weekenders on occassion. So what? That pack helped get to know something and learn something I still love and enjoy doing. Does this mean I'm not keeping it "pure?" And what is pure really? There's no need to become the forums bigoted fascist dictator deciding what is pure and what is not. The people who backpack are the people who are meant to backpack. The people who aren't are the ones who tried it and didn't like it or looked at it and ran away before they even learned more, which means they weren't meant for it.

It is like the poeple who get angry at the bands who sign to a record lable and then call those bands sellouts. So what? They want to make a living and get their music out to a more diverse audience? As long as it is good and you still enjoy it, who cares?

Well, don't changes of this nature seem to be completely inevitable? I understand your angst, believe me I do. The lite philosophies preached about here have become more of a lifestyle for myself than mere methods of lightening my backpack. But good things do catch on - even those within the fanciful world of backpacking. Whether it's movements such as Ryan's pushing lightweight into mainstream, I'd say that's rather questionable. Yes, I'm sure it's not helping to slow things down, but perhaps this is his way of "teaching," just as you and I both enjoy, and he's not necessarily in it just for the money. Hmmm... Who knows?

Eric Kingston

Pika - Well said...

Mugs, I know we chatted some time back about options in wilderness education. With that in mind, I would have thought you would be as excited as I was when I saw Ryan Jordan's book in my REI.

You mentioned a conversation in your OP which discussed whether backpacking was dying as a sport. To an extent, I think that may be an accurate thought. There are statistics (God love them since there are statistics for nearly every viewpoint it seems) from the National Park Service that suggest backcountry permits are dramatically down in the last couple of decades.

Perhaps a part of this is that with the advent of the 7-pound super-suspension pack, other gear naturally began to weigh more some time around the late 80's. When I began my AT thru-hike in '99, my pack with 3 1/2 days of food weighed 57 pounds. And after the loads I carried in the Marine Corps, I thought this was light! But now, my pack is almost never more than about 1/2 this weight.

The way I see it, as an educator, I owe it to teach others what I know about lightweight backpacking. As a NOLS instructor, I routinely taught students lighter weight options they could use when their super-heavy course ended. I would actually bring in my LW/UL kits to show them at our final barbecues in Lander. I've tried to do the same for local scout groups and customers in the REI where I work.

So when Ryan Jordan's book showed up in REI, I was really excited. I see it as a big step forward in expanding the backpacking world, a world which otherwise shows a pattern of decline. And I see spreading the word as a calling, the right thing to do. Besides, just because the book is out there doesn't mean the UL movement is suddenly going to erupt. Ray Jardine's books opened a lot of eyes, but didn't suddenly make UL the predominant form of backpacking. Ryan's work will only appeal to those who are already predisposed to go lighter. And that's not the style of backpacking a lot of hikers choose.

So do the most important thing and keep getting out there. That's what backpacking is really about, moreso than any amount or type of gear.

Mugs:

When I go to Wal Mart (gasp), I am absolutely bewildered by the sheer number of obese people shopping there. (But before anyone flames me, let me say that I am merely using Wal Mart to illustrate the indisputable fact that our countrymen -- and women -- and kids -- are getting more and more obese with each passing year!)

I say let's get as much UL gear, books, DVD's out to the mainstream as possible! If knowing that Nature can be enjoyed safely without hauling 70 pounds will get more people off their couches and on the trails -- I say let's make it happen! That our tiny UL world might somehow be "less pure" as a result is a fair price to pay -- IMHO.

BTW, if ever trails become as crowded as shopping malls, bear in mind that 99% of the wilds don't have trails. You will never run out of places to challenge yourself -- or places of quiet and solitude.

as an educater (soon to be) I agree with you. And yet that is my point exactly, they have to come to you for the knowledge and you are happy to share. I likewise am happy to share and people come to me seeking my advise on Bping and I give "seminars' (not at REI though, they never let me give "that" seminar but that is another topic) which is my argument. they seek and not just purchase it. They get shown hands on as well, they had to go through a right of passage.
Also if the mas market is gettign directed to one Ul site then that under cuts the smaller guys.

So I imagine that you don't mind that moosntone, montrail and the once good company of North face are now all bought out/sold out. You enjoy seeing a SUV driving, latte sucking, cell phone talking while driving their SUV wearing a North Face jacket bought at Nordstroms because it was good for that company who sold out. And that now once trusty brand you could count on, is junk because they sold out. I should hope not. I remember when Metallica sold out in 92, they have sucked since. Is this what you want to see happen to us?

I am not pushing the light weight methodology, I am talking about selling out. And people being able to buy a store bought experiance.

Just looking at the impact of more people in the back country from another angle . . .

People = votes. If we can get more folk to appreciate the less-spoiled segments of creation for their intrinsic value (rather than as a "resource"), there will be a greater political base to counter those with plausible arguments on putting idle "resources" to "use".

I will take me being a jerk,as me being bold and not afraid to voice my opion, and will take in stride coming from a person with only 24 posts. I am not saying we are an elite cult or being facist, I am speaking about selling out here, and allowing something that once was select to become mainstream, not for the passion of it, but for the sake of making a buck. And yes corperations are evil. Do you think the rich and poweful really want equality for all, and to share the wealth. No they don't, they want to keep the "little" people down so that they can remain in in power. They don't want to share there power or their wealth. And then they spoon feed us propoganda, and sell us what they want us to become hooked on. They want us to become obsessed with getting that latest greatest thing, that will give us that latest greatest fling, and yet we are still empty inside. That is the way it has been done since a class system became established.

Mugs:

Can you elaborate more on your objections regarding the ability to buy store-bought experience?

In other words B2W they can purchase the information from a mass market store, then possibly purchase the gear from a mass market store. Which means that more than likely the "little" guy (take for instance your pack) is no longer in existance. And be able to head out on the trail with it. They did not have to dig, research, inquire, join forums, hike with others that were able to pass on the trail lore like we have done. They got it all from a store, instead of having to learn it as we have.

I'm 34 and I started backpacking at 33.. What got me into backpacking? Well, after a lot of car camping and wanting to get to more remote areas....MY WIFE BOUGHT BE RYAN JORDAN'S BOOK ON AMAZON.COM.

I read it, dropped my pack weight, and now I'm enjoying getting out there more and having an entirely new and fulfilling experience.

If this isn't acceptable to you, because I learned how to go lighter from a book instead of struggling for years before being fortunate enough to run into someone like you to benevolently bestow your infinite wisdom upon my humble self in person, well, I really don't really give a rats [Edited for inappropriate languge, please review forum policies for more information] what you think. See you on the trail.

As for Ryan Jordan, he has a body of knowledge and a marketing mechanism (his website) so why shouldn't he profit from that? I am glad my wife spent some money on a book that has enriched my life and taught me much.

As for "selling out," for every North Face that sells out and has their products decline in quality, another smaller business pops up to fill that void. In the meantime, if the Six Moons Designs people can spread their quality products to a mass market for a few years before the quality declines, and they make a buck doing what the love, good for them. When (if) their stuff becomes crappy, someone else will fill the "quality" market.

I suspect that your real issue is more about losing what you imagine makes YOU so special. If everyone knows how to go lighter, then poor Mugs is just another backpacker, not a member of a super secret group that so few people know about. I have news for you...bands don't start to suck when people other than you start to like their music. YOU are the one being manipulated, because YOU need to feel unique in order to appreciate something, and that's a personal problem, not a problem for the rest of us.

Thanks for taking the time to look at my profile.

No, I don't think "rich and poweful really want equality for all, and to share the wealth" and neither do I. If you do something which someone else values, you have every right to ask for compensation in exchange for it. If you want the wealthy to share their wealth with you, you have to do something more than whine about it.

Most corporations fail, despite the hard work of those founding them, and without the motivation of wealth, and but for those that succeed, we would be living in a third world country. Also, it's important to understand that most corporations are publicly owned, which means they're actually owned not by pasty fat man, but by the retirement funds of little old ladies. But perhaps most importantly, this process puts food on the table for the families of millions of employees. Sure, Bill Gates has billions of dollars, but he puts food on the table of 76,000 families world wide every day. Before you cast stones, consider whether you've ever done anything similar.

If you want "equality for all" try moving to Cuba and see how equal you feel. If you want "equal opportunities for all" as I do, be glad you live in a country where a high school geek can become a billionaire.

Anyway, from my perspective, this thread is way off topic now, for which I'll take responsibility, so I'll drop this conversation after this post.

Mugs, I do know what is troubling you and I have felt the same sort of things quite strongly myself in the past.

I think the problem a lot of us are having with your post is that you seem to equate lightweight backpacking with an arcane, elite fraternal order analogous to a priesthood and that the niche manufacturers are fellow travelers and suppliers of sacred objects. You also imply that they should not be concerned with earning a good living from their endeavors. Further, you seem to imply that the only proper form of instruction in the mysteries of LW is by word of mouth from those already annointed in "the way". And finally, you seem to think that there is a purity of discipline that must be maintained.

I'm sure you know that none of this is the case and that it is not what you mean but it does sound that way from the phrasing of your post. I recognize that it is actually a cri de coeur from someone seeing a commercialization of something you see as spiritual. In many ways I agree with you but I don't agree with the way you expressed it.

Uh, I was gonna say something, but then I thought I might wind up being stoned, so never mind.

Do I care if someone is walking around in the mall wearing a North Face jacket even though they probably don't backpack or probably even camp? No, I don't care. It isn't illegal for them to have a jacket made for something a little tougher than what that particular person will ever do. I'm not going to look at them and think to myself, "what a poser." Does this kind of stuff cause a brand to lose its quality? It is possible. So I won't buy it then or suggest it to anyone else and someone or something else will come along with quality stuff.

You use Metallica as an example of a sellout band, but plenty of people still love them(despite their last album). Is the quality of their music lacking now that they're making big bucks off of their music? If that is your opinion, then I suppose that the music is. But that's the whole point, it is all a matter of opinion. So you don't like a brand going big. Dont' buy it anymore, it isn't like they're the only brand out there. It isn't as though their products will suffer because of this, it is not an automatic outcome.

So do I think backpacking will suffer because of some guys book or brands going corporate? No. Like I said before, the people who will want to do it will do it and the people who won't, won't. The brands that begin to make terrible equipment will lose their original consumer base and other/new brands will come along and fill that gap. The fact that these things happen really isn't going to change the fact there are people who don't like getting dirty. Don't like sleeping on anything other than a thick mattress. Don't like eating their food off of anything other than a plate and table with silverware and a roof over their head. So these brands that you've known for so long are moving on and you don't like it? There's nothing that can be done about it. Don't live in the past and move on.

I fail to see how having only been on this forum for a short time makes any difference to anything. It doesn't mean automatically that this person's opinion is any less valid than anyone else's.I for example, only have 21 posts on this forum after this has been posted, yet I've been backpacking since I was sixteen. I'm not exactly new at this. I take it as an insult that you would simply look down on what someone says based on the amount of posts someone has made. I doubt I'm the only person who thinka that that kind of arrogance isn't necessary on this forum and a step in the wrong direction.

What does that say to someone who is new to backpacking and they come on here and see some "purist" giving some person crap simply because they haven't been around the forum as long as they have? No wonder people want to go and buy books rather than ask someone the information when they see people who seem to want to horde and "protect" the sport of backpacking for "purists" alone.

Mugs,
It is all in the mind. If you think you are free then you are free. If you think you are being oppressed by the evil corporations then you are, and you can put a bunch of bumper stickers on your corporation made car that burns corporation made gasoline (or Bio-Diesel) to complain about it. You are free to complain in this great country. You are free to buy your stuff where ever you want. It is a free market. You can make your own gear if you want, using fabric and thread made by a corporation. No matter how little a trace you want to leave, or how much you want to reduce your "carbon footprint," by reading this on your computer full of heavy metals and powered by electricity you are part of the problem.

As far as the economics of "selling out" it is capitalism that drives our economy. We are not unlike any other animal in that we have a desire to obtain resources and compete for those resources. The communist experiment failed miserably because people are inherently greedy and those in power make the rules no matter what the politics say. Pol Pot's attempt to return to "Zero Year" was a disaster. Backpacking and wilderness exploration has its roots in imperialist capitalism in that agents of capitalists were trying to find trade routes, resources and new markets in primitive areas.

The problems that we have in the back country are not unlike the problems that we have when we are trying to get to work on time during the high traffic times (which are most of the waking hours anymore). It is population, and the pressure of population that makes strip malls pop up where we didn't see them a week before.

I selfishly lament the growing population too because I will have to compete with more people for some resources (quiet and solitude) and they get in my way on the road. I wish half the population did not exist as long as it did not affect anyone I like. The sole cause of these problems are not caused by someone "selling out" and wanting to make money for their ideas and efforts (capitalism).

Capitalism is here to stay whether you complain about it or not. It springs from natural law and denying that we have those tendencies is the mark of either a dishonest person or an ignoramus. Those making the bucks made a choice to do so just like you made a choice to be a "little" person being kept down by the man. What do I know? I only have 16 posts and that, according to you, equals the value of someone's opinion regardless of their previous "life experience" before entering this holy, pure space to discuss such matters. I guess I'm an oppressed "little person" in this forum by your standards.

"And people being able to buy a store bought experiance. "

I realize the experience you're talking about is the process of learning skills and slowly acquiring gear. I think for me the difference is in overall philosophy. I've gotten so much new, cheap, and progressively lighter from gear as an REI employee that new gear really doesn't mean a lot to me any more.

For me, the key experience to lightweight hiking is hiking, not so much the lightweight side, which has improved the comfort of my hiking, but not dramatically changed the experience. A hiker's backcountry experience can't be bought in a store. Even if a guide service is hired, the hiker still has to hike his or her own hike. To me, this is the experience that counts most.

I sort of envy you the thrill of learning a new trick or acquiring/making a new piece of gear. I just don't get so excited about it any more. For me, the biggest excitement, outside of being out there in the backcountry, is sharing new skills or gear thoughts with others. That way I get to live vicariously through their joy in new knowledge, and enjoy the satisfaction of helping someone else.

1st response: sheesh.
2nd response: at least LW gear and literature exist .

Anybody who's followed Charles' site since the first version understands how the pursuit of lightweight once meant selecting the Dana Bridger instead of the Terraplane. Look at where we are now. The outdoors industry--the big boys and the cottage pioneers alike--has responded by providing the stuff that we once would have had to make ourselves, ala Jardine. But it's still a drop in the gear bucket, and still more or less for the fringe. I don't know about anybody else, but every time I'm on the trail I tally standard weight versus lightweight kits (something to do, ya know?) and it's probably a 95:5 ratio in favor of old school. In fact, '70s vintange external frame backpacks still outnumber packs I'd consider lightweight.

As to REI being walmart or somesuch, remember that its roots are as a climbers co-op organized to obtain impossible-to-get European climbing gear, and even today they still manage to carry useful stuff amongst the acres of clothing. Being stocked at REI not a kiss of corporate death. I've bought a Hennessy Hammock and an Integral Designs siltarp there, two small specialty makers who seem to still be intact. I bought my copy of Jardine there, for that matter.

Want to get away from the masses? It has far less to do with what kit you're carrying than your ability to route plan, and your map skills. (GPS was also supposed to kill backcountry solitude.) My hiking buddies and I had the same route-planning challenges when we carried 50 pounds as I do today, toting half that much. You don't hike twice as far on the main trail, you get off the main trail.

IMO the outdoors and the wilderness belong to everyone to use as they please so long as no harm is done to the environment or to anyone else. The source of their equipment or their information is of no concern to me. Live and let live. I don't feel like I'm a part of any elite group.

I wish such a book existed when I started backpacking. And I hope that increased exposure for the book results in increased sales for the cottage industries, resulting in new and better products for all of us. Besides, most cottage industries do not stay small forever. They either sell out to a bigger company, go mainstream, or go belly up. With or without Dr. Jordan's help.

Bearpaw is spot on. Anyone can read books until they pass out but there will never be a substitute for actual experience in the field.

Finally, without knowing Dr. Jordan or his mindset I think it's wholly unfair to speculate on what his exact motivation for writing and selling the book was.

i resent mainstream stores like Albertson's, Target & Wal-Mart carrying organic items. for years I had to special-order organic cotton items at astronomical prices online or through catalogs. now any old slob can stroll into Wal-Mart and get organic cotton bedsheets for 50 lousy bucks! i can get an organic cotton t-shirt for $10! argh, what's this world coming to?

i used to have to wait for the farmer's market or else drive way out of my way to get organic produce, and forget about getting any good snack or convenience foods that were made from healthy ingredients. now, i can buy organic wheat crackers, milk, fruit leather, nuts and all manner of food while i'm at Target getting my toilet paper! and so can anybody else! this is horrible!

i liked it better back when i was the only one who knew about good nutrition and planet-friendly food & clothing selections. and if nobody ever came to me looking for advice on how to eat healthier, then they didn't deserve to know! now all of a sudden the mainstream media has caught wind of MY standards and is letting everybody else know about them! people are writing BOOKS about vegetarianism and natural eating and ways to leave a smaller impact on the planet! you can get these books at any old corporate bookstore!

this really chaps my hide. whatever happened the purity and exclusivity of buying organic? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I think Tarbubble and PIka have said what it is I am feeling the best. Though perhaps Trabubble's post was ment more as a pun/funny than anything else. I had to laugh at some of these posts. And as far as the number of post creating a "I know better than you account" is not what was intended. I was throwing back into the person a retort for con-screwing my thoughts and calling me an elitist jerk. Now then, onwards. It is not that I fear change, or that I think we are a special breed (ok maybe a little) and yes I have tons of pics, and have seen tons of old school packers, (which gives me a smug smile every time) but I am just as quick to talk with them and try and convert them, or offer some simple advise, hell I have even stopped people on the trail and re-adjusted their packs for them because it was completly off balance and sideways and you could see the discomfort in their faces.
And for those that have decrease their pack weight via the knowledged gained through a book which resulted in purchasing and supporting a cottage industry, great. I more or less did the same thing just via internet forums. I used Ryans book to go form UL to SUL. But my fear is this increasing mass market UL gear will create a flux of people out in the back country that will not be healthy. I know finding a remotes pot is my resposibility, and alot of my ghiking is off-trail, but that is just it, I want the assuridness that it will be remote when I get there. I will agree that those that want to go light or even out into the back country will, and those that don't won't. But I prefer to keep it a lwo ratio and not try and give the mass population an angle to entertain the thought.
The reson I get so pissed when I see a gazillion NF jackets oroud town and on campus is becuase now it is every body and their mother is weraing them and by weraing them they seem to feel that they are a part of the outdoors and that they bought it just because it is a NF, whne in reality they are YUPPY *&%$$# who don't have a clue. (I am sure I just started another fight with that one)
Now then, I am a bike commuter, and when I can't ride my bike I ride the bus, my car is only used for when we as a family have to get some where ,or we are going on a trip, so I don't feel that I am a large partaker of the mass metals used or what ever it was that the person said. I buy my groceries froma loca store, I buy my coffe from local roaster, I buy my car parts froma local parts store, I keep everything as local as I can.
So then to those that took offense to my "putting' you down because of your post count that was not the intent (save for one, and you know who you are) To the rest thank you for the posts, and letting me vent, this is something I just had to get out into the open. My thoughts and opions have not changed much, but I am glad you guys (that is an all inclusive term) have showed me some different points of view on the subject which makes for a more well rounded concept and one can better formulate and idea from. I apreciate all you posts, even the not so "nice" ones then again mine was not that nice to begin with was it. But it is the way I feel/felt maybe I am being a little fanitical here, but it is a thin line between wanting to share it with the world and yet a part of me wants it to be small and clandetine. Who knows. Hey at least the forum saw some action for a while.

> maybe I am being a little fanitical here

I just wish you'd quit knocking on my door all the time asking if I've heard the good news about ultralight hiking or if I'm going straight to hell.

deep sigh... my post was intended to show you that you're being ridiculous. there is such a deep gulf between your outlook on the world and mine that it just makes me sad. you're not going to be teaching elementary school, are you? i don't mean it as an insult, just that i really don't want somebody who thinks the way you do to be influencing my kids.

exclusivity results in inbreeding. elitism results in isolation. we had a minor discussion over at BPL lately that i think relates closely to this. are you a person that loves people, or are you a person that can't stand people (unless they fit your narrow definition of what makes them worthwhile)? you're looking more and more like the latter. your superiority complex is staggering and i suspect makes arguing with you pointless.

the fact that you would class anybody who chooses to put on a pack and take those steps away from their car, away from the guided paths - the fact that you are still choosing to term people who are GETTING OUT THERE as "tourons" tells me a great deal about you. as i age (i'm at the ripe old age of 32 right now <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ), i have come to realize that everybody is a moron in the right situation. occasionally i have to hire somebody to fix something at my house, because there are limits to my handywoman-ness. when the electrician comes over to do work for me, does he privately think to himself "what a moron, this lady doesn't know how to install wiring"? hopefully not. i respect that he has knowledge i don't, and hopefully he is mature enough to respect that i have knowledge which he does not. i can go get a book on wiring, and i could even take a class on it if i chose to learn that skill.

we all exchange. you are blinded by the self-importance of your "mastery" of UL/SUL/negative-weight backpacking. because you think that you have mastered the subject, you assume that you are superior. we poke at your balloon with our little needles, but i hope eventually you will be able to let some of the air out yourself.

Man, this whole thread was hilarious. You got some serious pent up aggression there mugs.

I don't really have much to add as I just don't care. As long as whoever goes into the wilderness doesn't mess it up for the rest of us then carry on. I feel from my experience that you are not going to see a big spike in people backpacking as a result of the book being sold at REI. The main thing that seems to hold the hordes at bay isn't pack weight, it's not having amenities and fear of the unknown. I have talked to a ton of people that hike, and 99% of them will not backpack cause they would have to go to the bathroom in the woods, or sleep on the ground, they don't like bugs or whatever else bothers them. As a matter of fact, it has made it difficult to actually find a decent partner. Thankfully I got one good friend I can go with.

And as a couple of others said, there is no substitute for field experience. I would venture to say that most serious backpackers will lighten their loads as a result of things they learn while backpacking. That's what you said you did, and that's what I did too.

As for selling out, I have to partially agree with your Metallica comment. That seems to be the natural progression of most bands. They put out a few albums, they get popular and then they change thier whole style to sell more albums. Is selling books about lightweight backpacking at REI the same thing? I don't think it really is. I mean all the "posers" buying all this stuff is what is keeping these companies in business so we can buy their stuff. I don't think you are gonna see most of the cottage companies going mainstream, and if you do there's sure to be more cottage gear makers to follow.

And lastly, I'm not even a UL guy so takes this poser's opinion for what its worth. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Tarbubble, I understand why you did your post. BUt your remarks are what I am trying to say. Would you rather buy your organic food from Albertsons, hence supporting the big chain of Albertsons or would you rather support a local market?
As far as Tourons go, perhaps you have not heard of this term in you neck of the woods. But up here it is a term used for A: a tourist on a day day with no gear what so ever, maybe just a little evian bottle and they can be seen up the trail a good ways (somethime 6+ miles) or B: those that go on a day hike and still take no gear with them. Both are extremely un-prepared and present a hazard to themselve and the possible rescuers that have to come and get them. Hence makign them a tourist and a moron at the same time.

Turon A was spotted about 4 miles up the trail when we were coming out. Later when we were finally at the end of the trail head up comes some wilderness rescuers with a giant "big" wheel gurny. Heat stroke was the prognosis. Yes we confirmed the victim. (that way no acusations can be made that it might have been somone else) No I did not take such picture, I for one find it gross, but it proves the point.



This touron campsite was about 5 miles up the trail. I took these pictures of what not to do. Note un-staked tent, and food lying around, cooler, and even a steel double burner propane stove. Open trash bag. Not to mention the mess.









No I do not view you as an idiot, any more than a person who asks me to fix their car. I am happy to do it and love doing it. I am a peole person and love to serve, in fact I believe that we were put here to serve and not to be served. And you can be safe, I do not even have a desire to teach elementry. I have the utmost respect for elementry teachers and there will be a special place in heaven for them (not math teachers though <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />) I actually plan on teaching college/adult ed, but will be starting out in secondary ed because of job security.
No I don't have a superiority complex, and if anything I have yet to master the UL/SUL world, in fact as progressive as it is it is one that can never be mastered, just like life. It was not my intent to come off that way. But I can understand how one might see it as such.

As a Grocery Manager that works at an Albertsons market , i beg to differ. The dollars you spend are used to pay local peoples salaries and will eventually be reinvested into the community that the store is located in by the employees that need car parts , clothing , housing or even backpacking equipment. Also , whenever possible , Albertsons buys from locally owned companies , including produce and seafood . I recently went to a local 4-H auction and bought/donated a whole cow to a family in need in a rural area...how many local markets can say they donate 5 million dollars per division / year locally to charity through food programs and special events as well as just plain gifts ? I say that if you really want to help people in your area , shop where your neighbors work...be it Albertsons or Wal-Mart ( that hurt but i said it ! ) , or at a local market if that is all that is available in your town. Your neighbors will thank you for it when they keep recieving their paychecks !

Maybe if there was a book on how to properly visit the backcountry and go lightly at the Target at which they purchased their gear, there would not be that scene. But then you would be angry that a book on UL was available to the mass market, right?


Also, what's "disgusting" about a woman in a bikini?

OMG! That campsite looks familiar... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> wait...no, could it be...??? MINE??? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Wait...No!!! Wait...that's a photo of ME!!!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

OMG!!!! I look pretty good. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Never thought of it that way, thanks. But I still won't shop at Wal-Mart. I like our local Alberstons, Rosaurs, and Fred Meryer

1: As long as they bought their gear from a cottage industry and not a box store <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

2: For fear of starting an all out war, I will not say what I found as gross about a women in a bikini. I just feel that people should present themselves accordingly.

Hm, interesting. I find semi-naked women to be beautiful. "present themselves accordingly?" Like unshaven and in a stinky sythetic shirt that reaks of body odor, a dirty pair of nylon hiking zip-off pants, a bandana on the head, and a pair of trecking poles? I would rather run into women in bikinis.

Well, I certainly respect your opinions but am comfored by the fact that you are fighting the tide, and you can't win.

If the people with the messy campsite and heavy gear want to get outside, good for them. More people enjoying the outside equates to more people willing to save it from development. I hope that they can learn how to do it lighter and cleaner. If they learn that from a book or the internet, rather than from someone like you, that's fine with me. If they buy their gear from a large store, well, I would rather they get it from a local small guy, I don't like corporations either, but there are worse things than a person working hard and then profiting when they sell their life's work to someone who can market it effectively.

I really don't think that someone with a passing interest in backpacking is going to put themselves through the time and expense to get as light and as far as the rest of us, though.

Metallica sell out? Yea, they sell out. EVERY seat, EVERY time they play. For what it's worth, I don't like their earlier stuff.

If this truly keeps you up at night you should try decaf.

As an employee of REI, I respect your views and your freedom to choose another place of business to purchase your outdoor equipment.

I do feel that REI is a corporation unlike many others, yes they are a business and making money is ultimately one of their main goals, but I feel they are a more ethical company than many out there and are stewards for the enviroment.

Every year they donate millions of dollars to the outdoors, many of which are donated locally to parks and organizations that maintain the trails we all hike on everyday. They are working to become more eco-friendly all the time and are an example for over 3 million active members of the co-op. They do have room for improvement just as any company does in our society today.

For me, the most important thing is that people get out and enjoy and learn to respect the enviroment. There are always going to be poeple that don't respect the outdoors and at REI we strive to teach them the correct ways by doing Leave No Trace clinics and such.

Now, did you mention that you like to hike "off-trail"? Well, doesn't that damage the enviroment even more? If people start making their own trails and begin tromping through the woods, the damage to the ecosystems could be catastrophic. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Well said! A so-called 'purist' is a snob.

My first reaction would be that not all purists are snobs, but when you qualify it with 'so-called' I would have to agree. But of course 'word snobbery' is but one of my many such passions. I turn up my nose to both the mainstream UL crowd and the mainstream mainstream crowd. You see, I am a minimalist snob. But again, that is only one of my many such passions. I guess I am a snob when it comes to minimalism, but not a minimalist when it comes to snobbery. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, that's an eyeful.

Many, many moons ago I came across a couple headed up the PCT from Snoqualmie Pass in street clothes, carrying Sampsonite suitcases. Believe me, those folks will always be around, which--to repeat myself--means getting off the main trail.

She got back as big as Shaq !!

There is a lot of wisdom in the topic. Maybe not enough civility though. As a hiker we should all come to realized the natural rhythms and cycles of life. REI started out a a buyng cooperative. It was a cottage industry. It has evolved into a major retailer. I started out as a UL hiker because I could not afford the equipment. I became a traditional hiker and now am evolving back into a UL hiker. I imagine that most people prefer the butterfly phase, but you get there by being a worm.

When I was 8 years old I thought women in bikinis were yucky. I hope I never outgrow my current interest in women in bikinis, but some do.

I am just pleased that my activities keep me connected to the natural rhythms and cycles.

Actually, I work for REI as well, and have mixed feeling about what I feel the cooperative's overall direction to be. But I must admit REI's ethic is dramatically better than any other job relating to production or sales I have ever worked (and I've worked a number of them from the supervisory and floor side). I've never known a place where part-timers are treated as well.

As for moving off-trail, LNT covers the concepts so that one can easily travel with no apparent impact. A single person moving gently, consciously avoiding fragile areas, and using a "bush-slide" versus a bushwhack mentality can safely travel with no environmental harm. Careful site selection and techniques prevent hardened, overused campsite.

Groups travelling off-trail tend to be more problematic. But we still routinely moved with groups of 5 or so on NOLS course. One technique is to spread out on a broad front rather than in a line. A single-person path of bent grass will recover in a few hours, as soon as wind or rain come into play. But a line of 5 will likely bend then break then stomp down vegetation. Dispersion of one's impact allows nature to recover itself pretty though, even off-trail.

When looking for what I consider to be minimalist hiking stuff, I am willing to look anywhere, and find stuff just about anywhere, leaving no stone unturned. Also, you might say I'm a cross dresser. I'll use sailing stuff, paddling stuff, biking stuff, even dress stuff meant for indoors. Some of the best wool is not meant for outdoors, but is great for outdoors. And yes, I check out ladies stuff also. "Do you have those moccassins in a woman's size 13", I might ask? "You do know they are slippers", they might reply. I'm still a snob though. I might look rather strange, trudging through the woods, but I actually have very discriminating taste. I'm not an artist, but I know what I like.

I can't believe that I read through all the threads but then again what do I know, I have only been backpacking for a little over three years and I have probably posted less than 10 times.
I started backpacking because a buddy of mine wanted to do the JMT and I asked if he wanted company.
I hadn't been on a trail since I was a Tenderfoot and I am now 52 years old, so you do the math.
I read up on the subject, (oh my God!!!), and went to REI, (may I burn in hell forever), because I wanted to enjoy the outdoors.
I find if offensive when someone thinks that just because I didn't find out the hard way how to go light, (and I am still learning). And I now know about the cottage places, I have a ULA pack, but backpacking is like the rest of life. It is a learning experience.
I have always thought the idea of being outdoors was to enjoy life, not to look down on those who didn't have your great wisdom.
If you don't like buying from a company with more than one store don't do it. But REI has some good stuff for those of us who don't feel we are above the lowly masses. That would be call elitism.
Sorry if I rambled but some people need to learn to not take themselves so seriously.

A lot of people have already made good arguments here, so I won't repeat. I just want to point out that the cottage industries are not a perfect model of non-corporate business. They rely heavily upon massive delivery services that overall move goods much less efficiently (especially to individual customers) than if the products were delivered to local stores. They are also highly dependent on the internet (as is the education that you claim is more pure). The internet is highly dependent on corporate support (or did you think that it was developed for the good of man kind? Nope, first it was a good way for DoD to push around information, later, it was just another way to make money).

Finally I'll point out that there are certain things that only corporations can do. Ever wonder why there are no cottage microprocessor business. Because the big guys keep them down? Nope, its just that sometimes (and this should be more often) a group of people working together can accomplish so much more than by themselves. Not saying that corporations are perfect, or really good at this all the time, but sometimes they do some good.

I'm just wondering where you draw the line. Should Jordan only have sold his book on his website, or only sold it to people that he has actually met face to face, or telephone, or email, or maybe only his friends deserved to have this knowledge, or maybe he should have just kept it to himself?

Maybe what we should do is develope a secret code, so that we can exchange information without just anybody coming and looking at our site.

Wow, what an exciting thread, it has all the elements of quality entertainment...humor, semi-nudity, self rightous narcissism, no violence yet, but maybe that's on the way.

I've been backpacking for about 30 years, still carrying my terraplane but looking for a bridger. I guess that makes me one of the behind-the-times lightweight wannabes that was referenced earlier. Better watch out Mugs, or I'm going to evolve enough to buy the same things you do! Then what are you gonna do, huh?

Dude, your diatribe has nothing to with backpacking or the outdoors, just with your dim view of your fellow man. Hey, I can relate, considering the general state of affairs in the world, a dim view might not be inappropriate at times. But, the last thing you ought to be worked up about is the public's ability to buy better backpacking gear at mass retail outlets! I mean, considering the starvation, political/economic inequities, global environmental issues, etc.

Muggs , i noticed that you are a student. Is your major by any chance ...BISSINESS ?

Oh my God what a thread. I thought I left all the self-important, dripping arrogance in the flight simulator forums.

OP, I literally just bought the Ryan Jordan book on (the HORROR!!!) Amazon.com. Even though I got the book from an evil, corporate website, at least I will now learn to stake my tent down properly--we are allowed to have tents right? Or is it tarps/bivies/1mm plastic only?

Do you know how FREAKIN' big the backcountry is? Here's a hint: it is a majority of the country. 10 million people could take up backpacking and you'd still have thousands of places to go and be by yourself, especially if you take an earlier poster's advice and get off the trail.

And not everyone who lightens their pack is automatically going to hike farther every day.

You really need to care less about what other people/corporations are doing and more on what makes you happy.

The original post is so over the top I find it funny and pathetic at the same time. The very notion of wanting to keep ul out of the majority flies in the face of actually posting anything regarding ul on a web forum. Better to keep all the information secret, and to yourself, rather than share any information with anybody who has web access.

No, I just recieved my Ba, in History, with a minor in Political Science. I graduated Magna Cumme Laude all the while raising two boy and working as well <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I am now getting my MA in education, and plan on teaching highschool, probably private or provocial. Then when the kids are out of the house I would like to go back and get my PHd in Social Political science. My long term goal is to teach college. As you can tell I love to discuss hot button topics so that is what I would like to teach professionally.

Oh trust me I get more worked up about other things than this type of stuff. Econmics, sustainabilty, un-fair practices, health care, the act that the "we" seem to think every one should live like us and have a democracy, instead of staying out of carp....my blood pressure is rising, I better stop.

How would you grade this thread?
Jim

I'm only a high school graduate, but I know a Freudian slip when I see it <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Last night as I was laying in bed thinking about the upcoming 2 nighter I'll be taking, I was pondering whether to bring my trail running shoes or waterproof boots. I debated the pros and cons in my head for awhile, then decided I would take a look at what an "expert" had to say. I rollled over and reached into my nightstand and pulled out a copy of Ryan Jordan's book and turned to the chapter on footwear.

Mugs, I feel the need to apologize. I know I should not be getting advice from a book available to anyone with an amazon account and 15 dollars. I'm sorry if I've offended you.

Feel free to let me know what you think in the boots vs. trail runner debate. Again, my mistake for thinking I could get some usefull advice from a book and not from you. Please don't be angry with me, I just didn't want sore feet on this trip.

Ha ha very funny, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Sorry, But you have missed the point about the thread. And if I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand it. Have a nice trip in your trail runners. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No, I didn't miss the point. You miss my point. I'M one of the people you seem to be railing against. I'm a person who is new to backpacking, and learning about it from the internet and Jordan's book.

I think you are wrong when you imply that if they make UL gear available to the masses, then the masses will invade and turn UL backpacking into a "pop" and crowded endeavor.

That's simiply not true. Nobody who didn't already want to walk 10-15 miles in a day is going to start doing it simply because there's lighter gear available.

As for corporations, most people are rotten. That's a fact. People are generally greedy. The distinction is that the level of greed differs from person to person. I like to support local, american made products when I can. I'll even pay more if it means supporting the little guy and thumbing my nose at a corporation. But do you really think that Henry Shires or the guy at Six Moons gives a [Edited for inappropriate languge, please review forum policies for more information] about me? Do you think they sew tents and bivy's for the sheer love of it? They are businesspeople doing something they find less offensive than office work to make a living. To make MONEY. I don't see Shires or anyone else selling their gear at cost.

If I call up one of these local or small business guys and say that my wife just had our first child, and my car broke down, but I really want to go backpacking, so can he cut me a deal and sell me a tarp tent at cost, they will probably tell me where I can go. And it's not to the Adirondacks.

If these little business people were so good, well, nobody is forcing them to "sell out" to larger corporations. They do it because they are in it to make money, and make money they shall.

So my point is, I try to buy locally and from small businesses for ME. Because I don't like corporatization any more than you do, and I don't like what corporations do to the environment, to local economies (Wal Mart), I don't like how they treat human beings, and I generally don't think much good ever happens when people group together.

People new to this activity, like myself, can now reach nearly the same level of UL-ness as you with just a few weeks of experimentation and research online and in print, and I'm sorry if that makes you feel bad. Although the skill to use light weight equipment still has to be learned through practice. Maybe you can console yourself by realizing that even though I read Jordan's book cover to cover several times, I still will need practice and experince to go UL safely and efficiently, and experience can't be purchased at WalMart.

With that attitude you would have made a great nazi.
Never befor have I read such snobbery, elitism, holier-than-thou, post that was laced with so much hypocracy.
You are going to have to learn to join your world with the real world or you will lose many a nights sleep as your utopian world simply does not exist outside of your fantasy.

Ah Ha, so you do get it. And yes that is my fear, that the will be an onslaught of people out there. But I get your point and should view it a different way. That is, if they want to be out there they will, even if the gear is made readily available to them via, mass market. I liked your point about SMD. HS and such still trying to make a profit and not cutting you a deal (allthough I feel they would be more apt to then say "exploitation mart" ) I don't look down on you for learning the how to go light within a few weeks vs a few years like it took me. In fact I encourage it, that way it save the Bper time and money and less mistakes to happen on the trail. Within my teaching of it, to those who inquire, accomplishes the same thing except they are able to seen and learn more from a hands on than therory and then practice. but the task is still accomplished none the less, and more eficiantly. Look I have no idea why seeing Ryans book in REI along side some Ti acly stoves made so pissed of, but it just did. I guess I owe this forum an apology don't I. I should have listened to my wife on this one.

Why don't we take more of a black box approach? Treat everything outside of nature as a black box. Reach into that black box and take what we need to go hiking or whatever it is we want to do, by whatever rules apply within that black box, while doing the least impact outside of the black box. Other than that, maybe stop worry so much about the silly box. We should include people you love, and people we care for, like children and other simple folk around the world, as part of this nature outside of the box. Let the rest of the box just sort itself out, the way we've been expecting nature to. Start with the television maybe. Just shut it off, and all the other junk inside of it. Learn about what is real from what is real, not from what is not.

I've been mulling over a reply to this topic for almost a week. From a small part of my inner self I agree with mugs - why share something that I have access to because I belong to some "elite" group of hikers? I went through the "rites" of passage to get here, didn't I? Why should someone be able to buy into something I had to learn the hard way?

But the greater part of me says that I wish EVERYONE were getting OUT THERE. Why? Because maybe I wouldn't be attending so many f%@#$g funerals for friends that are dying from cardiovascular disease or watching them grow old and fat before their time.

When it comes to UL, most of the ultralight stuff is there because ultralight materials have become available. There's no difference between a bivy I bought 15 years ago and the one I'd buy today - except the lighter materials in today's bivy. The tent stake is the same, except it's now titanium. The sleeping bag is no different, except it contains higher fill down and high-tech fabrics. Pack - same pack, except spectra reinforced lightweight fabric shell.

If we're talking about the whole attitude of "less is better" - hey, monks have been practicing that for millenia. Should they be incensed that we UL'ers have just now figured it out?

It is my sincere hope that those who I encounter OUT THERE in the future are as courteous as those I have already encountered OUT THERE in the past. And if anyone wants to see a Nazi in action, drop a piece of trash on the trail in front of me or (God help you) flick a cigarette butt. I believe that actually makes a difference. If you want to share the great outdoors, play nice or get out of the sandbox.

For those who sell books through major outlets - hope you make enough money to eventually make those books freely available online. For those who have already made the UL technique freely available - THANK YOU.

Surely we must all realize that travelling light is not a modern concept. It's been done for thousands of years, tens of thousands of years, millions of years. Perhaps travelling unneccessarily heavy while travelling unneccessarily is somewhat more modern concept, but I doubt that also. Surely it all just keeps getting re-invented over and over, but that's just marketing. There's nothing new under the sun.

From Stone to Steel
- E.J. Pratt

From stone to bronze, from bronze to steel
Along the road-dust of the sun,
Two revolutions of the wheel
From Java to Geneva run.

The snarl Neanderthal is worn
Close to the smiling Aryan lips,
The civil polish of the horn
Gleams from our praying finger tips.

The evolution of desire
Has but matured a toxic wine,
Drunk long before its heady fire
Reddened Euphrates or the Rhine.

Between the temple and the cave
The boundary lies tissue thin:
The yearlings still the altars crave
As satisfaction for a sin.

The road goes up, the road goes down -
Let Java or Geneva be -
But whether to the cross or crown,
The path lies through Gethsemane.

Sometimes I think the world would be a lot happier place if we all followed that advice more often. I have to go do the dishes now...

I dunno about an apology being necessary mugs. lots of times I feel this way about lots of things in the outdoors. I've seen your sentiment reflected by experienced fly fishers and hunters alike.. I share much of it. Much of my energy in the outdoors is spent getting away from the herd.

OTOH, I do believe, like it or not, that in order for us to be able to continue to do what we do, I think the masses need to be exposed to it. Yes, it sucks because there are more idiots out there, yes it sucks because the corporate whores will crank out gear in volume and make it tough for the cottage industries. but unfortunately I see no other way.

I personally think that it's a necessary evil in our democratic world. IMO, UL is about making gear work *practically* in the field, as opposed to in the showroom - Mass market (heavy) gear catches backpackers the same way fishing gear is designed to catch fishermen rather than fish. (No fish ever bought a 800 dollar flyrod). If heavy gear makes backpacking more like car camping, frankly, people find the trails uncomfortable and tiresome, and end up, well, car camping with sexy gear. And here's the problem. If it's only a small group of us devoted to actually getting away from the trailheads, more and more our voices will not be heard. The fact is democracy gets you what you deserve, not what's right. - so if we educate the masses to stay away, with heavy garbage for gear and an attitude that we don't want them (and I know, lots of the time *I don't want them around me*) the fact is we're setting ourselves up for losing a lot of the places we like to go. Nobody will speak for them. nobody will act to protect them and maintain them. Dontcha think it would be a lot easier for forestry companies, parks services, etc. to simply close the backcountry to hikers and keep the masses in the car camps? Why bother getting different (lighter) bear technology certified for an elite few if everyone carries heavy gear? Hunters have the same problem. if you love the sport, you frankly, have to keep people interested in it, and keep it sustainable with more people involved.

As for keeping the cottage industries alive? lots of word of mouth works for that. and I hate to say it -
*seeing you on the trail* - yes, that means getting your butt into the sites with the rest of the herd. I don't think I say in a backcountry campsite these days without someone coming over and taking an amazing interest in my gear, particularly the stuff I make or adapt myself, or order off the net. Yes this can be onerous, and sometimes, if I'm tired it's like "oh boy here it goes again", but nothing is a better advertisement for a good rig, than seeing you, comfortable and well kitted out, on the sort of gear we use, in camp next to them, and if you are approchable, people will ask, and you can brag a little. Heck, I do, and it (for me) makes staying around a few other people worthwhile. I'd bet (and know in at least a couple cases) that I've sold a number of people on stuff I use, after they see me with it, and they're getting stuff off the net from the little guys or making it themselves instead of buying whatever bill of goods MEC/REI sells them.. I think there's enough room in the market for both.

In the end I think that while a lot of us do this (myself included) to quest for solitude, we owe it to the sport to spend at least some of our time out in not-so-solitude showing others the way, and yes this probably means the sport will change.. Ces't la vie. We should participate in that change or it will not be kept anything like pure. Unfortunately the only cure for packs of boneheads is either euthanasia or education, and in our society only the latter will happen, and it will either happen as provided by corpate marketing types, or clueful caring people. You pick. Me, I suck it up and sacrifice some solutide to be a little bit of the latter, knowing the alternative is probably worse.

At least you only have to do the dishes. I have to go pack to leave for Vegas for a week, instead
of packing to hit the mountains for another week. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Of course, my wife doens't backpack....

Very nicely said.

One of the greatest feelings upon ending a NOLS course was the final night in the field when we had something of a dedication ceremony. Every one would dedicate themselves to remembering the important things they had taken away from the course. Students sometimes wrote letters that we instructors mailed to them 6 months or a year later.

One point I always made was that these students had earned a little piece of the Wyoming high country through their sweat equity. This ownership would never appear on paper, but they could understandably hold this ground to be sacred because of the experiences they shared there. They might never visit it again. But it would always be theirs. And when they were it might be threatened by mineral rights encroachment, they should be prepared to jealousy guard the wilderness they had earned, to keep it sacred. Nothing else instills that sort of fierce loyalty to wilderness as the treasured memories of the sheer emotion earned from full immersion within it.

We would carry our beastly packs for a full month, maybe covering only 125-150 miles on many courses. But the experience was life-changing for most. Imagine if the 30-something with lightweight gear could step into the Wind Rivers and hike the same route in 7-10 days of vacation. Well, he can if he has good risk management skills, solid cross-country navigation skills, and a desire for adventure. That's one of the great things about the lightweight and UL movement. It opens up some truly remote places to new guardians of the wilderness.

That's a truth I can wholeheartedly agree with. Keep in mind that more people sharing the outdoors means more votes toward keeping the outdoor experience alive. It's easier to turn someone on to backpacking if they don't have to lug 50 lbs of stuff around. Just don't get preachy about it - some LIKE to pack heavy.

[/quote]
At least you only have to do the dishes. I have to go pack to leave for Vegas for a week, instead
of packing to hit the mountains for another week. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Of course, my wife doens't backpack.... [/quote]
I had a nice hike with my sons in Red Rock Canyon near Las Vegas a few weeks ago. It was a nice diversion from the neon lights.
Jim

Mugs, your lighter load is your crutch. It's gets you farther into the backcountry? You think you don't have to be in shape, now, huh?

I hope a 60 year old backpacker with a wooden external frame pack holding a 50 pound load passes you on your next uphill. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And one more thing....if you try and adjust my pack while I'm trying to enjoy the outdoors - alone - I'll kick you in the shin. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I don't think I am an elitist but I have always been a gearhead. My wife and I are both over 55 and our bodies both enjoy lighter gear. We just got back from one week on Isle Royale
and our packs were at aprx 26 and 29 pounds for 6 days. A lot of people came up and asked what we were using. I just hope some of them follow up and switch to lighter gear.
We don't go for long days but with the UL gear our days are much more enjoyable.

HMMMMMMMM lets see here I race cat 4/5 road bikes, commute, plus do "training" ride for a total of about 250-300 miles a week. Go for long walks on some evenings with my wife and even longer walks on th weekends, plus do day hikes, and mountain biking with my kids. And I work out at the college gym after I ride there in the morning. My light pack has nothing to do with me getting deep into the woods, it has to do with my comfort, and lifestyle <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think this post disproves your entire argument. If these people had at least read a good book on backpacking before heading out, they would not be "tourons".

You know, I am an engineer, but they made me read a lot of books and do much studying before I was allowed to start designing stuff. I learned a ton from experience, but education is the first step in learning. I think it is great that UL books and gear are being made more available to the general public.

The way I see it, if someone wants to lug their double burner stove, leave their tent unstaked (Eagle Creek is a very deep gorge, with rarely any wind BTW), and leave their clothes strung out, why not?

Plus that trail you were on, about 2.5 miles up is a very popular swimming hole and seeing people lugging coolers up, in flip flops, and even bikinis.

I really hate to think that you have this view of everyone you meet, not just people on the trail that you come across, but you really came across quite negative. If you were closer, I'd give you a hug. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Heh, actually, so did I. and I managed to leave vegas just in time to avoid the flash floods. Saw lizards and Burros - which to a canadian is pretty cool and different <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As 'tongue in cheek' as some of my posts may be, let it be known that my intent is to make sure whoever is asking the question can return from their trip to ask another. I agree with the quote above; and try to discern a questioner's previous experience by the tone and wording of their post. In no way is anyone on this forum superior to anyone else because of their number of (or lack thereof) of posts. It all boils down to posters coming clean with their line of questioning so that those trying to help them can do so without being too long winded.

Iin closing I'd like to say that Mugs has a right to his opinion here, and though the majority of the posters are against him, he has the right to his opinion. If he believes the 'sellouts' in the UL cottage industries are doing so for 'mass market profits' that's his right to state.

Remember, just because someone can afford a Porsche does'nt mean they actually will ever drive it at it's limits <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> If I had a dollar for every clean 4 wheel drive I see on the road I'd be rich. Just because folks buy gas guzzling suvs and 4 wheel drive trucks does'nt mean the majority of them will ever see real dirt. We'll just have to be hopeful that when the masses experience back country failures with their tissue paper tarps, drafty quilts, and tippy hammocks; they'll be more inclined to stay close to the trailheads <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

How about being a small scale farmer and having ADM go 'organic' <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Now THAT chaps MY hide <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> 'All of a sudden' local grocery stores ALL have 'organic' foods with their names on the labels <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> This BS is confusing the consumer, just like big AG wants it. What with 'natural', 'organic', 'pure', 'farm fresh' being
tossed around like so many over used words these days I'm surprised there ae still any family farms left in the USA <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Unless you're buying directly from a farmer it's not 'farm fresh' thank you. I can tell you how many days old an ear of corn is just by picking it up. 'Organic' certification takes years, so having the market flooded with 'organic' products in just the past few years seems a bit odd to me; especially when said produce is being brought in from outside the Country.

Buy Local, support the health of your family and your local farmland! I'll get down off my haybale now <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I thought so too <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey, could you please call the Albertson's over in NJ and have them drop me a cow off? Farm budgets' been a wee tight lately and it seems all the cows went off to market but forgot to let me know they were going! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

my response was totally tongue-in-cheek.

YES, Big Ag is not necessarily something i want to support. however, all farms, even big ol' "corporate" farms, have humans working on them and living near (downstream from) them. i will support organic farming with my dollars, even if the standards for "organic" get weakened - that's an issue that activist groups need to fight about. i do the best i can with what i have available here. to me, organic isn't about just feeding my family safer (hopefully) food, it's about improving the health of everybody who has to work with that food. my grandfather suffered from parkinson's for more than a decade, and there's heavy evidence that pesticides either cause or contribute to the disease. they just plain ain't good for anybody.

so i look at organic farming the same way i look at information & knowledge. it's good for everybody. and the statistics (if you can believe them) are showing that fewer and fewer people are visiting our wild places. so let's get those slobs on the trail and teach by example, but if they actually want to BUY A BOOK on the subject, then God bless them.

so yes, buy local. reduce the pollution & waste caused when food has to travel a long way. problem is, here in dense SoCal, the "local" farmers just keep getting farther & farther away....

There was a time when 90% of the human population had to raise crops in order to survive. With technology (not just pesticides, but all of the agricultural developments), that percentage drops to about 1%. This frees up 89% of the population to do useful things other than farming, such as writing books, becoming doctors, going hiking, making computers, posting on internet forums, and getting into quibbles about farming practices <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Just saying, mass agriculture has its place. Fewer and fewer farmers does not necessarily mean fewer crops produced, and modern agriculture has produced a society where you don't have to work in farming unless you choose to, rather than because you must eat.

I prefer the organic approach, myself, as do many of us. Keep in mind, however, that someone who's starving might not care about such niceties as pesticides killing the eagles. Only once you have enough food can you take care of the environment.

Xelif I agree with your post in part that people have to eat and it matters not where it comes from...to an extent. But it becomes much more of a political issue once Big AG controls the marketplace is what I was inplying.

Safe food begins with safe farming practices <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I have to agree with you, of course. I'm sure we both could go on about how Big Ag + the government aren't exactly fair.

Speaking of safe farming practices - my tomatoes are finally ripening <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We're almost nearing the end of our tomato season here in NJ, though it was a banner year for most everyone.

Remember if you wrap those Fall green ones up in newspaper to check them every few days to make sure they're not spoiling. I just wipe the tomatoes' surface down with a handy wipe that's been wrung out after having been dipped in a dilute solution of water and bleach. I've found it keeps the spoilage to 10% or less through to January <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ahh, useful tidbits like that are one reason I love this forum! We don't get enough light at the house, and it looks like we might have a few greenies left over. At least it doesn't frost here for months, if ever. Thanks Earthling <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Your welcome Felix, just remember you can always pan saute up the green ones that you decide might not make the storage. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

hey...slow your ro...last month that was me...zip off pants, bandana...no shower...and one set of clothes...and I sent myself a razor in a resupply...and realized there was no shower to make use of it. It was a gift to everyone I wasn't in a bikini! Those zip off pants stayed zipped on...covering my hairy legs! hahahaha!

"Big Ag" is one of the reasons America is as rich as it is, and that you can spend your time hiking and seeking out organic foods. Historically, without investing in agriculture universities and without the advances that it gave us, and the efficiencies that investment gave us, we would likely not be in the place we are today. In fact, our surplus gave us the ability to pretty much feed the world after WW1.

I'm glad you say 'even if the standards for "organic" get weakened', and realize that everyone cannot eat organic. The land cannot sustain organic farming for such a large population. I agree with you though, i wish they would clean up the use of the pesticides they do have to use, for the benefit of the workers and the communities around those farms.

I first saw BPL two years ago and it was obvious to me that there was some good marketing involved with that organization. They must employ the Karl Rove of light packing in their maketing department. I was looking for learning materials and bought the book- disappointed. Looked at the site- they will not get my money. Checked out Bozeman Mountain -come on! Who knows for sure that Ryan is really a Doctor? A doctor of what? Save your money and stay away is all I have to say. And as for the 'who gets bought out' in the manufacturing world-- they all get bought out or get too big and loose sight. But thats okay, because there always seems to be another company coming along that will fill the gap. I bet Golite will the next one to get grow big enough to be snatched up. If you can't beat your competition, buy 'em. And yes you might see more people because light is easier. I was a climber, until Stallone's movie, Cliffhanger. Then that sport got overcrowded. They built a big fancy fly fishing store up by the smoky mountains and now if you want to fish there you have to bring your own rock so that you will have a place to stand. How many commercials are there with fly rods or kayaks? Whitewater is so overcrowded now that I sold both my boats. The day you see someone lighting a cat stove on an insurance commercial-- you will know its over. It will be like Disney world out there. So to those people that support companies like BPL, thanks alot. When it gets overcrowded and popular you can thank yourselves.

I dunno, speaking as someone who spends time around banff/kaninaskis - yes, the close stuff is "disney world" overrun with tourons. - but to use an example from just this weekend in Kaninaskis... Car camping, mobbed. 8 km in at forks (flat all the way) about 4 sites in use out of 15 on saturday. A few people there. After forks (12 clicks more, with some nice serious elevation gain..) and up to Turbine Canyon.. Not a soul around... nobody - silence, mountains, wind, and glaciers...

I'm reminded of the grandma gatewood quote seen on someones sig here. "Most people are pantywaists" - Yes! they are. and no amout of marketing is going to change that. If anything marketing curries to peoples innate slacker rather than encouraging them to get off their tushes.

As long as mainstream gear marketing is balanced against the marketing of Coca Cola, Fast Food, and Video Games, all you'll need is a little elevation gain or distance..

Run out and tell a dozen people about lightweight backpacking. How many of them will decide to take it up? Heck, most people I know don't even go camping, much less walk a mile from a campsite to look around.

I don't think I've ever had anyone interested based on looking at gear commercials.

OTOH, posting my pictures in big old albums has had a few freinds who look at them ask me to take them out - the result being I haven't been alone alone much this season - But that's my choice. I can say no.

[color:"green"]She who dies with the fewest and lightest toys wins!

Or

He who dies with the fewest and lightest toys wins!

The reality of living in the USofA is that we have the freedom to lead our own lives pretty much any (legal) way we want. (And there are those who say you can live illegally as well, but that's not the topic of this discussion.) We have the freedom to invent anything that hasn't already been patented or copyrighted. The future is wide open to us. And we have the right to do what we will with our inventions.

Isn't that the essence of Hike Your Own Hike?

I might not necessarily make the same decisions as someone else, but I'm not that person's conscience, parent, sibling, or child, so that person's decision is entirely his own and so are the consequences. A perfect example of HYOH.

I do understand your frustration, yet I encourage you to "let it go" and not let it influence your life. I've had similar frustrations with the way things happen -- small companies being taken over by larger companies and not letting the public know -- companies going overseas to "assemble" items made in the USofA because it's less expensive -- clothing made everywhere except the USofA. Trying to "Buy American" isn't as easy now as it was 25 years ago and that frustrates me and makes me into a more careful customer.

There's a Country Song by Bucky Covington http://tinyurl.com/35pb6c which states in the refrain:
It was a different life
When we were boys and girls
Not just a different time
It was a different world
http://tinyurl.com/3ah5m5

And it was. I'm 63 in another couple of weeks. I can't compare "today" to "when I was young" because just about everything is different now. Not always an improvement, but totally different. Just like my grandparents who were children before there were automobiles, electricity in every home, and indoor plumbing, yet who lived to fly on a jet plane in their senior years. Who would have ever thought that life (as we know it) would change so dramatically in the course of 75 years or so? From horse and buggy through Henry Ford's assembly line to autos made using robotics in one lifetime.

My best advice is to just "go with the flow" and enjoy the ride. Swimming upstream will definitely wear you down physically and mentally.

Take care of yourself (and I mean that sincerely), Coosa[/color] <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[color:"blue"]I just got back from canoeing in BWCA (Boundary Waters Canoe Area) near Ely, MN. If you want wilderness, I suggest going there. They do have restrictions and you pay for a permit, like you must use their campsites (which are not overcrowded due to being only the size for one to three tents and they have an 'open throne potty system'). The rangers do patrol frequently to ensure no one is causing havoc in the still nearly pristine waters. However, it's truly a "wild" experience. (No bear or moose, but saw eagles and beaver and a northern bluejay.) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My point is: If where you like to go becomes to crowded, find another place to go. Or go in the "off" season. I'm going to winter kayak at Land Between the Lakes, TN, later this year. I imagine there won't be too much traffic out there. And if there is, I won't let it spoil my kayaking experience.

Maybe my second point is: Everything evolves. Nothing is static. And at the same time, once "too many" people get into backpacking (if indeed they do it more than once or twice a year), it will no longer be the "novelty" and some new activity will catch the eye of the masses who will exchange a backpack for something else (let's hope they've learned LNT or LVLT -- VL= very little). Then, we'll have the backpacking trails all to ourselves again.

I just don't think there's going to be a herd of touronic people hiking the entire length of any trail. And if they do, they'll be just like the Appalachian Trail hikers who end their "thru hike" at Suches or Neel Gap (Blairsville).

Go with the flow and think about running for Public Office. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Coosa <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

There's enough crap going on in the world to worry about what distribution outlets are being used by some small potatoes author. Beside the fact that he probably didn't have any say in the distribuition your elitist attitude does more harm to the hobby than 12 boyscouts dropping trau and pinching the subsequent loaf upstream of your camp at suppertime.

If that is keeping you up at night I think you and your wife can find a new goal because you need a pretty darn simplified lifestyle for that to even crack the top 25 for most people.

If the trail I was on this past weekend is any indication, there's absolutely no risk of ultralight being to "mainstream". Heck, the vast majority of the other backpackers were still using external frames, and I had the only frameless pack out there that I could see. Just because a book is available to the masses, doesn't mean they'll actually read it after all...they're probably prefer to wait for the movie <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Tom

Hey, that is what I am doing. Waiting for the movie. Well, ok, I am just waiting for a library copy so I don't have to buy it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have to say, after reading the entire thread that it was one of the most entertaining things I've done in days. Not to have the last word but my thoughts on the subject have been expressed several times by others and some by you.
Everytime I took an interest in a sport or activity it seemed everyone else was getting into it at the same time and crowding my deal, when in fact it wasn't my deal at all. I was just another perticipant. AS far as the Light weight backpacking idea. I was doing that when I was 12 years old. My dad would drop us off at a trailhead in Idaho where we lived at the time. I had a frame pack and sleeping bag and a piece of tarp, rope etc. My thinking now is Leave no trace or as little as necessary. If people want to do something they will. To what extent they get into it will depend on their desire. How they get into it will be by many different ways. I learned about this site through a simple search. Eventhough this is not a commercial venture it is the world wide web and accessable to all.
I think time will weed out the people that are not intent on becoming proficent at a craft and will not venture into trouble (hopefully) and be content with car camping a couple of times a year.
When I go fly fishing and people are lined up elbow to elbow in the stream, I find another place less accesable. As far as commercialism, there will be more goods on e-bay only slightly used.
Happy trails

It is obvious that you don't understand real business.

Ryan Jordan probably has absolutely no control over the distribution of the book and the outlets in which it appears. The book publisher customarily has control over the distribution, but you can self publish if you desire to have control yourself as an author.

The book publisher would most likely desire to have REI as a seller of the book, and if one wanted to spread the gospel of Ultra Light Backpacking, one would desire that this book be distributed at places like REI.

I understand your frustration, but I believe that it is misplaced.

However, since your rant has been aired, I hope that you feel better and can once again sleep nights.

I had the librarian at a local University run a Doctoral Dissertation search for Ryan Jordan.

No doctoral dissertation was found.

So, I wonder about the title of Dr. for Ryan Jordan. It is possible that he has an honorary degree from somewhere. Or, (shudder) one of the "diploma mill" unaccredited outfits which give credits for life experience.

Or, somehow, people began throwing that title at him, and it "sticks".

Anybody have any knowledge of the academic title?

From his bio page over on BackpackingLight:

"Ryan has a B.S. in Civil Engineering and an M.S. in Environmental Engineering from Washington State University, and a Ph.D. in Biofilm Engineering from Montana State University's Center for Biofilm Engineering (http://www.erc.montana.edu/). "

Just to let folks know; I ate my last garden fresh tomato on New Year's day with a nice slab of VT Chedda' on garlic bread. Was it good? OH YEAH <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

3 months from the begining of a new crop <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for ghost writing this for me Hooty <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I agree whole heartedly with your post; which, unfortunately shows great insight <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

GoLite has a branding deal with Timberland-but it appears to be only for shoes -done in 2006.

I really don't understand all this bashing of Ryan Jordan. Questioning his degrees, etc. really isn't a credible way to attack someone when from what I read, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Just because someone can't find Jordan's doctoral thesis doesn't mean squat. Call the university if you are that certain he is faking his credentials.

As far as bashing Jordan for selling his book at REI, what is that all about? Do you people think you belong to some secret club that entitles you to attack someone for "selling out" because they are selling a book? That kind of thinking is ridiculous.

Who gave you the right to be the only person on the trail or in the water? There are plenty of places to go that are not crowded; you just have to know how to find them and that isn't all that hard.

By your logic, this site and any others like it shouldn't exist or should only be accessible to certain people. I don't buy it and don't like to see these elitist ideas promoted here. Everyone is entitled to their opinion (within reason), but what's next? Black people shouldn't go camping, Latinos should stay home? No one over 30? Only hikers who pass some kind of purity test allowed on the trails? Get over it. It's a big world and if you don't want to share it with others, too bad, if you are on public land, it's not your choice to make.

ps. All of these are my personal opinions and not connected in any way to Charles or TLB.

Thanks for ghost-writing that for me, Tom <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I must admit that Ryan Jordan's use of the title "doctor" seems a bit pompous, but, well, who cares?

Well said Tom. However I an still not posting my favorite trails on the internet.

I am not a moderator, but if I were, I would have deleted the post simply for the pathetic, bold face, macho challenge of his first sentence. The thoughts deranged lunatic come to mind.

In fact, he is a pretty solid citizen. I suspect he was having a bad day and started the thread at the high (low) point of it; none of us should be judged by our bad moments.

I'm sure that Ryan Jordan has his Ph.D. I seem to recall that an MSU faculty member I knew was on his dissertation committee.

Incidentally, it is generally considered to be poor form for someone with a Ph.D. to use the title "Doctor" in other than professional circumstances; that is, those related to ones area of expertise. Most Ph.D's I know use Mr., Ms, or Mrs. in almost all social and business dealings. On the other hand, those with professional doctorates such as the MD seem to use the title both professionally and socially. Not sure why the difference.

A acquaintance of mine learned about this the hard way. He and I had traveled to a small town in Colorado on University business. He had recently gotten his Ph.D. in Range Science, was proud of it and thus had had all of his credit cards and ID changed to read Dr. Smith. When we checked into the motel, he registered as Dr. Smith. Late that night, he got a call from the front desk saying that another guest was having what they believed was a heart attack and would he please go to room 222 and look at the person. When he told the desk clerk that his doctorate was in Range Science the clerk replied; "Oh, I thought you were a real doctor".

I get that all the time. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I like to think I am a real doctor when I stay at a Holiday Inn Express <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It is common for anyone in other fields, besides medicine, to call themselves doctor if they have a Ph.D. College professors do it all the time and rightly so. It indicates a certain level of academic accomplishment and sure, maybe some people flaunt it, but it doesn't bother me at all.

According to Wikipedia, Ryan Jordan has several degrees, including a masters and a PhD in biofiilm engineering. He taught at the college level and headed a research program on groundwater. Pretty arcane stuff, but quite important work in my estimation.

Say what you want about him, but his backpacking credentials are pretty impressive-a number of long distance (300+) miles unsupported hikes, plus a lot of other adventures.

I'm not suggesting anyone has to reveal their favorite hiking trail to anyone, but at the same time, if someone wants to promote their sport, whether for profit or just because they think others might get some enjoyment out of it, that is their right to do so.

Like Yogi Berra once said, "No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded."

If you want wilderness, it's out there; if you want to go where no one has been before at all, even that can be found if you are willing to look for it. There are probably places in California where no one has ever been or if you go certain times of the year, you will be alone.

Heck, last winter, I went camping and went out to Dewey Point, one of the more accessible and popular lookouts in Yosemite and was alone the whole day. In summer, no doubt a different story. In the three days I was camping, once I turned off the road, I saw only a handful of people snowshoeing. Hardly a crowd. When I talked to a couple of them, they had no idea I was even camping there. At night, I was totally by myself. The one group of campers I saw one night was pretty far away from me.

I was camping midweek, but that weekend-the 3 day Presidents' Day weekend, the Valley floor was full of tourists. I went down there with friends who came up for the weekend. A very different experience. Do I find the crowds annoying? Sure, but it's not my park.

You are correct that a lot of Ph.D.'s call themselves doctor every chance they get, heck they even put it on their auto license plates. All I can say is that when I was a faculty member it was generally considered poor manners to mention it outside the academy unless it was necessary to establish ones credentials. Maybe things have changed since I retired.

This is definitely not a major issue but personally, I feel it is a bit tacky when someone advertises their academic credentials in a social setting; most particularly when nobody has asked.

I know I said this joke before, but it fits here so well. Can't resist.

How do you know if there is a pilot in the room? He tells you.

Ok, so it is cheesy, but I had too.

I don't think things have changed much, and I think you captured the general etiquette of academic titles precisely.

On the other hand, I don't know whether "Doctor Jordan" has gone around flaunting his title or if that's just something BPL groupies have glommed on to. In any case, I'm glad for Jordan's contributions and for the BPL site.

Hey, I know, let's check the Masthead.

Tempest, meet teapot.

Tacky perhaps, common, of course. Medical doctors are the worst though.

What's the difference between God and a doctor?
God doesn't think he's a doctor.

Jordan also has a technology education company, which he started that offers e-learning courses in biomed and other related fields. This site does advertise his credits, since it is aimed at medical professionals and others in hi tech and medicine, so academic credentials are important.
Cytergy

Mugs is good people. He's been looking at lots of things in his life, like we all hopefully so at various times. I suspect this was a look at some things that concerned him when he was out looking for a bit of peace and found himself surrounded by too many other hikers for any decent contemplation.

Turn this story inside out and you can see why many MDs use their title in routine social transactions. I believe my dad would have signed the guest register in this motel as xxxx, MD, which would have been completely unambiguous.

There were plenty of situations where he was content to be addressed as "Mr.," especially if money was involved, because he felt he often got a better deal. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That's not cheesy, finallyME, that's lactose-free!

How do you know a pilot is in the room? When it's time to pay the check and you find you're $5 short on the tab and somebody didn't leave their part of the tip.

(You know, cause they're so frugal, yet still can't manage their money, a hackneyed story. I take great pleasure in tormenting my pilot friends with that kind of thing.)

When protesters in Bolivia shut down the airport in Santa Cruz last fall and demanded the pilots pay the landing fee -- something like a grand -- in cash before they would be allowed to take off, my joke was "what pilot has more than $5 in his wallet."

I had a flight attendant tell me about the pilot boarding the crew bus back to the Caracas airport after a layover. The crew's all onboard and this woman comes running out of the hotel screaming and banging on the door of the bus, which they have the sense not to open. Another F/A asks, "What's up with her?" "Cap'n didn't pay for his hooker" was the reply.

I could go on, but this might be considered off the topic.

That's just what came over me MNS when i ageed with Hooty; see how it can fog one's thinking <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I campletely disagree with Hooty's post now that the errors of his ways have been delicately pointed out to me........What? i'm nort allowed to change my mind unless I edit my post? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

FinallyME and Kevonnia <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> My Dad was a pilot for Sebena Airlines...He could make two Linclons sing opera <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />...Lincolns as in pennies!

ME: "Dad, do we have enough fuel to make it in to Mastic beach?"

Dad: "Sure son, this 185 was made to glide!" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Someday I would like to be a pilot. I would love it if people made fun of me, if I got to be one. If I get a plane that is fitted to land on lakes, then I can get to better BP destinations.

Talk about serious thread drift.

I have gone back and read Mug's original post. I just jumped in after the Ryan Jordan bashing started, so I am catching up to what started all this

Mugs, you are just plain wrong. Are some corporations evil? Depends on your definition, but I would agree to that in some instances.

HOWEVER, your attack on REI, Jordan or anyone else you dismiss as not "pure" is nonsense. "Keep it pure" is code for "you are not worthy to enjoy what I do, so go away, stay home and don't come back." I don't buy it. Should my friends be banned from Yosemite because they shop at REI? You seem to think so. I don't. I shop there myself.

Backpacking numbers may be down, but there are lots of reasons and I would put heavy gear at the bottom of that list. Video games, TV, or limited access to parks would top my list. There are plenty of people in this country, including people right here in the LA area who have never seen the ocean or been hiking in the local forests. Why should they care about saving something they have never seen? I don't have a good answer for that one.

I learned about camping in the Boy Scouts. My parents took my sister and me car camping with our little trailer with a cartop boat for fishing. We went to Yellowstone, Yosemite, Canada, and Northern CA including around the Lake Tahoe area. Was this "pure"? Of course not, but it was a great time for me and my family.

I believe kids learn to enjoy what they get exposed to early on. Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think so. Kids in Hawaii, where I lived for years, love the ocean because it is close and free. Beach access there is a right, not a privilege. Do I hate the fact that my favorite scuba diving spot got overrun with tourists? Sure, but there are other places they can never go and will never see that my friends and I could go to, and we did.

More backpackers means more people who appreciate the wilderness and want it protected, not exploited or developed. We need more backpackers and hikers, not fewer. Political decisions are based on large part on special interests who influence policy. Votes or money count-the more of each, the more influence the group can wield.

Sure, no one wants to show up at a crowded campground filled full of RV's or people who think they are at the mall and act accordingly, but how are we going to educate them to appreciate walking instead of driving through the park, if we can't at least be examples for them?

I think we should encourage people who take in interest in our sport, not try to discourage them. Take my word for it, not a lot of people want to sit in the snow eating a freeze-dried meal out of a baggie. None of my friends do, even the ones who love to hike. "What's wrong with you?" is their usual reaction when I tell them where I am going.

But, without all of those "tourons" you despise so much, I might not get the chance to do that at all, so I am willing to co-exist with them because they allow me to do what I want at little cost to me.

Mugs, This reads like a Manifesto from someone who has grown to love backpacking, through a lifetime of commitment learning the necessary skills to be an accomplished backpacker. There is nothing wrong with voicing your outrage over what you see as 'encroachment' on the 'days of old'. But you must realize the World is moving ahead much faster these days then it did in our '60's and '70's. We cannot stop the commercialization of anything because this is the technology age <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I once told a friend back in the early '80's that, "computers are just a fad, don't get involved with them and waste your time.." <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I now spend at least 1 hour of my life a day typing on this silly keyboard, when the class I hated most in HS was typing! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I hate the direction the World is taking as much as you; and I'm sure we'd make fine hiking partners because we have the same colored glasses on. There is just no way to halt progess, in any subject, civilazation is advancing with or without you.

No need to really worry that much about turons picking up UL gear and really putting in the miles. Now THAT'S a fad! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Rest assured like everything else they get into they will stick to the front country or limit their forays into the wilds the first 10 miles or so. heck, that's ten in ten out, and no matter how light the gear, they still have to walk it and miss their computers the whole time. So let the masses join us and support Open Space and the wilds that backpackers collectively love to visit <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Now would be a good time to pass the bottle if yer a drinker <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Ahh..Earthling. You made me feel so warm and fuzzy inside. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This is the thread from hell that just doesn't end.

Allen what a title to continue the thread with in a new thread <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />