Planning for Climate Condtions

How do you choose clothing, sleep system for a given trip?

In general, I go by historical climate lows for the month rather than forecasts. I use extreme low for sleep system, using clothing to help out for close to extreme lows if encountered. In mid winter I also depend on fire and improvised shelter also, in the event of an extreme low event, but also bail out strategies. I tend to keep the trips short midwinter also, at least until I get a -25F sleeping bag. When we do get that, I am usually at home, testing what I do have in the backyard, with extra clothing and foam pad etc, to remind me just how cold and dangerous -25F is when illprepared. Fun stuff. Would be less fun in the woods.

Clothing wise I usually bring enough for Normal Daytime Lows for the month, or about 10C warmer than Extreme Lows, whichever is colder. I bring enough to stay warm while trudging slowly, sunrise to sunset, and stopping for up to an hour at a time in a sheltered area, without having to use the sleeping bag. I think a sow trudge and light rest and camp activity in a sheltered area require about the same clothing. So far I empirically figure it to be about 1oz of clothing per degF below 80F, not counting shoes and shells. For temps below 0F I will add more safety factor. I layer evenly for the worst conditions, one set, plus extra socks or two. For below 0F I also bring a set of long wool underwear as an extra. They can fit over skin layers and under mid layers for an extreme low event, or in the event of falling through ice or whatever.

My hiking is in coastal forest, rather than Alpine, although it includes some exposure on open lakes and rivers, especially for travel on ski trips. Stopping and overnights are in the woods though, with drying fires as an option in emergencies. Snow shelters are not alway feasible. I don't use down clothing, or synthetic batt, but I am considering some sort of a down or batt long coat that doubles as an overquilt for my sleeping bag. I might use my CF gortex bivy as the outer shell. Not sure of best inner shell. I would have all my other clothing under it, including light wind shell.

Shells tend to ice up below 0F, which complicates things, but where I am Maritme Coastal I still need to be prepared for wet stuff around freezing in addition to dry stuff below 0F, so I am staying away from stuff like light canvas shells. Fleece makes an interesting semi-shell over wool, with some wind shell and rain shell to back them up as needed. Wool itelf will work pretty good in shedding snow and icing over a little on the surface as it gets colder.

As an old bat, I tend to go by what I've experienced in the past. We all talk about climate change, but I haven't noticed that much either in the Rockies or in the Cascades during my lifetime. Yes, the glaciers are melting, but when the weather gets extreme, it isn't any different from what I've already experienced.

If I were going to a completely strange, I'd read up as much as I could. I'd look at the record highs and lows and, for the latter, consider maybe 5* F higher. The "normal" or "average" don't mean much; about half the time the temperature will be colder or hotter! I'd also look for as much info as I could about precipitation patterns. This is especially important in mountainous areas where you don't want to be caught on a high ridge in a thunderstorm.

I may be too pessimistic, but when I stop hiking, I get cold easily and don't enjoy it!

It's interesting, because aside from winter trips, I do much of my hiking in "temperate" areas in the western US and Canada, and I've even been to Japan and Australia.

I take essentially the same stuff. Yes, I do vary it a bit if there is a possibility for more extreme conditions, but it doesn't change a heck of a lot three season - a synthetic layer to hike in, a wind/rain shell, a set of poly long johns to warm up and sleep in, and some insulating layers - couple of merino shirts, a fleece or primaloft jacket. hat, toque, gloves, etc.

Then either a hammock with underpad/poncho or tent and little pad..

and my sleeping bag - I *will* take a warmer sleeping bag if conditions warrant, but my light (-3C rated) MEC merlin goes with me most of the time these days.

That goes with me from coastal rain forest to high alpine, all over the west, and from 54 north to 43 south in lattude, Canada, USA, Australia, and Japan.

Now admittedly I've done nothing overnight in true desert conditions, have to do that someday, and the warm deep south I've never done more than day trips in. But I find it fascinating how *little* my gear changes for three season trips.

A few days ago I got out my winter down parka and pants and weighed them because I am thinking about getting lighter for winter. They weigh 7 lbs. I plan to sleep in them with an added down foot muff and a light over bag in a bivy with hips down covered with snow if really cold.

As long as we're talking a week or less, I let the forecast make my decisions. The NWS now accommodates fairly site-specific forecasting, so I get one for the highest elevation area I'm headed for.

Forecast for South Yosemite high country

You can drag the map anywhere you like, click a new area, then zoom in to see whether it's correct for your trip.

The forecast is just a starting point, of course, but excellent for predicting overnight lows and how much foul weather gear you might want.

cheers,

Like phat's, my gear doesn't change much. I made up separate gear lists for warm weather and cold weather conditions, and then discovered that the difference between them was a net of a whole 9 oz.!

I usually carry the same stuff for any 3 season - sometimes the shelter varies depending on local regulations and availability of trees, but otherwise same 20F quilt, same clothes...

I try to be prepared for anything 10 degrees below the predicted temps. Does not always work tho - last month a sudden temp drop put the actual lows at 20-25 degrees lower, not 10, and my companion was less prepared than I was... so we hoofed for the car and cut it short rather than freeze, since there's nothing keeping us from going back next year.

We have monthly, daily, and hourly climate data going back to 1953 many locations across Canada, mostly airports, so its fun to go back and look at particular cold snaps. Sometimes its like, oooh, and other times, yeah maybe.

Don't do alot of winter camping at airports though.
Try not to anyway. lol

This must have been special...
http://www.climate.weatheroffice.gc.ca/c...68&cmdB1=Go


Several days too
http://www.climate.weatheroffice.gc.ca/c...nth=2&Day=1

Same cold found its way here a few days later but not as extreme...
http://www.climate.weatheroffice.gc.ca/c...nth=1&Day=1

In my home range of MT's northern Rockies, a one-day temperature swing of 50 degrees or more is common...especially during clear weather, summer season. Because of this, I find I pack 'more' than when I backpacked in the MD-VA area (the bulk of my experience). I didn't carry nearly as much cold weather clothing for three season camping back east.

I assume the swings from freezing cold nights to hot days are common to any area in the arid west and may be greater at higher elevation (all of my trips have been below tree line).

What say you? Does the nicer, lower-humidity clime of the Great American/Canadian West cause you a heavier pack?

FB

When I was writing my guidebook I did an extensive analysis of weather data for the Wind River Mountains. I found that the climate HAS changed if you use the last 10 years vs the last 30 years. In fact, there is significantly measureable melting of the glaciers. However the change is small with respect to the actual gear I would take. Honestly, a 5 degree change would not impact what I pack. The last 10 years has been warmer on the average with less early season snow. The greater impact is when the trailheads become snow-free and this DOES impact WHEN I plan my trips.

As for what I pack, I pay a lot more attention to the NWS short-term forecasts. There is so much variation in 50 years of weather records that I think you would really over-pack if you used the historical lows.

When I moved to California and started backpacking in the Sierra, at first I just took the same stuff I used in the Wind Rivers and that was too much, so over the years I have cut back to gear rated for more moderate temperatures. It was difficult to do this because I really had a "Rocky Mountain" mindset. My shoulder season Sierra gear is much like my mid-season northern Rocky Mountain Gear.

I had the same problem when moving to the Northwest, although somewhat tempered by a number of years in the east. Summer in the Rockies is about like the Cascades in spring and fall.

As I mentioned, the climate in the Rockies may have warmed up a trifle, but in my trips back I haven't noticed any change at all in the extremes I've encountered! You can still expect snow and well-below-freezing temperatures any month of the summer. I'd rather carry an extra insulation layer so I'm comfortable when that happens.

What I did notice on more recent trips back is a definite change in the summer weather patterns in the Rockies. Back in the 1940s and 50s the frequency of thunderstorms dropped way down in early August--you could expect a week or two of beautiful weather, a couple days of thunderstorms and then another clear week. Now daily thunderstorms can be expected throughout August and (per the data in your book) into mid-September. I did have a gorgeous week in the Winds in mid-August of 2008, though--it drizzled, blew and snowed high up the day I went in, but cleared that night with absolutely perfect weather the rest of the time.

I've seen too many times when the weather forecast was wildly off (technically, it changed after I was already out on the trail ) that I just plain don't trust the things! That's especially true out here when nobody, even the best meteorologist with his computer, can predict just what storm systems are going to do or how fast they're going to move over several thousand miles of ocean. I'd just as soon be prepared.

JAK
I guess I'm with most here, I carry pretty much the same thing always. Sometimes I don't use all of it. I have a generic set of clothes good for a wide variety of uses and thats what I take.
Jim

For me, the personal experience extends back to 1966 or '67. I have redone many trails in the Sierra Nevada Range and it seems warmer most of the time now. I can't compare sleeping bags because I know my first down bag was lighter and shorter than it should have been...I grew out of it by the time I was 13. Also, I have a dog as a heater now. But the mornings in the 60's and 70's were usually cold unless I had warm clothes on. By the 90's, I was wearing shorts all the time and many mornings were downright warm at elevations above 9000ft. On my last trip (end of Aug), we had two days where we had light snow flurries (and ice in the water bottles in the morning). Then it was back to relatively warm and we spent most of the time above 10000 and 11000 feet. I distinctly remember many more instances of frozen water bottles in the past. This is all very non-scientific and based on my bad memory. But partially because of these observations I am revamping my Sierra backpacking setup.

Funny how the word Climate made many people think and talk about Climate Change. I guess the original post was confusing. Made for an interesting thread though. Thanks for all the comments, either way.

Speaking of weather.
Today is our 4th straight day of Drizzle,Fog.
Windy, Wet, Warm too, like 60-70F 24/7, well 24/4 so far.

Too bad I need to spend it indoors finishing my work. lol

I realise your post was not specifically about climate change- but if you are going to base your assessment on long term historical data, then climate change automatically enters the equation. I think data from the last 10-15 years offers a better database than, say, the entire 75+ year record.

One other point, is that the body adapts to temperatures. If you are used to living in a climate-controlled environment (our urban existence with heating and air conditioning) you are going to be more sensitive to hot and cold. I am always amazed at reading about the old timers (John Muir and others) who did amazing trips with little gear. I think they were really adapted to outdoor conditions. Today, we softies are not!

As W_D says, the climate change bit definitely does factor in when you're looking at long-term data vs. the last 20 years, and you should be looking at the latter. My point was that even with the changes in climate and precipitation patterns, the extremes that you may encounter (such as two big snowstorms in the Wind Rivers, a week apart on Aug. 8 and 15, 2009) haven't changed much in the past 60 years!

Good points. I suppose we have to be prepared for new extreme events as well as for old extreme events.

Regarding adaptation, the old timers were really tough. I think people can still adapt, and it is easier if you are younger and fitter, but the older you are the more important it is to try and get well adapted and to try and stay well adapted.

I wonder how much living more outdoors under more temperature fluctuations effects overall health, in addition to all the other benefits. It can't be that healthy to just stick with room temperature all the time. I think especially when it comes to sleeping, it might be alot healthier if we would open the bedroom window and let some cold air in like people used to. I battle with my wife over that. She wins, and I have to sleep outside if I want cold air and rain and birds to listen to, so I guess I win too in my own way.

I'm not so sure about "younger and fitter" - so much as "adapted" - ok, I've been a bit of a bush rat all my life, but I go out with "younger fitter" newbies who are used to the city, and frankly face it, I'm a computer nerd, so am I - and yet they sure seem to feel it more than me the day after, and also seem to get hit by weather extremes more than me.

Now my standard gag in bad weather is pointing to myself and saying "evolutionary ties to the walrus" - so maybe there's some of that in play too..

I also just think some people are more comfortable, and able to be comfortable in extreme conditions than others - those of us that do this a lot have probably seen a lot of that, and know what we might face and how we deal with it. I think that confidence also breeds comfort.

So while, sure, some of it's physical, (Ya canna change the laws of physics) and you better have reasonable clothing and shelter - I think a lot of it is also mental.

I'm also a firm beleiver that the mental is contagious. Nothing gets a "newbie" perked back up in crappy conditions than a good attitude on the experienced person's part, and help in getting more comfortable - confidence, comfort, and attitude is contagious.

I hear you there. I grew up cold weather sailing, and outdoors alot like you, and i've been through some walrus-like phases also. So I can handle the cold and wet stuff WAY better than most people I know including the younger and fitter. Still, as I am approaching 50 I am finding I am going to have to get out more regularly if I want to stay well adapted and maintain those bragging rights. Especially when I am working on dropping a few pounds I notice it a little harder to get the furnace going in the morning and at night. Not such a problem in winter camping, because I don't skimp on the bacon when winter camping. Sketchy this time of year when dieting though, which is why I mentioned it. Never a problem 10 years ago, but I've only gotten agressive on the dieting now that I am approaching 50. The two sort of go hand in hand.

I am hoping the cold and wet weather camping and adaptation will help with the dieting though, just as lots of activity helps with the dieting. It can be tricking getting the balance right though, knowing when to refuel and how much. Easy to overdo it. Easy to underdo it also. My left hip is getting sketchy which is why I am really giving the diet a push.

p.s. I am setting up a primitive shelter in the backyard. Hope to get out there sleeping most nights. I've always camped out in the backyard now and then but I want to do it more regularly. My wife keeps the bedroom too warm, and I like to hear the rain and the birds also. We don't have a dog, so I am going to have to build something. I like the backyard because you can really push the limits of comfort and safety because you can always bail out, so its fun to test the limits.

98% of my hiking is in the Grand Canyon since I live close to it. Even though it is desert the seasonal weather varies a lot. Someone somewhere said one's worst case scenario should be to experience minor misery. Warm weather water weight is exchanged for cold weather clothing and shelter so pack weight does not vary too much. I just keep it light and simple.

I agree with that totally. The worst/best trip I took in college involved a string of terrible decisions between myself and the other guy as we set out to do about 110 miles on the AT in mid May. Somehow we managed to convince ourselves the following was reasonable:
- We didn't need sleeping bags (it would only go down to at worst forty degrees)
- We didn't need tent(s) (see above, plus, "It won't rain, I have a feeling")
- We didn't need rain gear (see above)

What happened after that thought process? We went on a 10 day hike where it rained the first 8 days and never got above 50º.

The point is, we never once complained to each other, or mentioned bailing to each other, and there were quite a few memorable moments as we holed up in shelters early in the afternoon for warmth.

We most definitely could have had a terrible time, but because we refused to be uncomfortable, or let being cold and wet bother us, we had a great time. I learned more during that trip about camping than I have in any other trip :-)


(And for the record, I have never gone on a trip without adequate tarp, sleeping bag, clothing, rain gear, etc since then...)

Here is a question, might as well go in this thread...

1. How much clothing for neck, face area?
A1. Some but less than rest of body.
A2. As much thickness as rest of body.
A3. Slightly more than rest of body, except for mouth/eyes.

I am not asking so much about how much is usually worn, but how much is carried, for the extreme conditions of that trip. If you were wearing it all, how much would the face/neck area be covered compared to the rest of the body, either sleeping or awake and camping, or perhaps even while moving at an energy comserving trudge.

In theory, the skin temperature in this area is the highest on the body, rarely falling below 93F, some extremities can vasoconstrict to 73F surface temp and still be comfortable. I thing beside having to breath and see, the face and neck area are very important for thermoregulation. So on one hand when its very cold you would cover them slightly more than average clothing thickness because the skin temp is higher. On the other hand, because you always need some thermoregulative control, it is useful if this area is always slightly under-dressed relative to the rest of the body, even when sleeping.

So I think the answer is A1.
Especially in winter, the answer is A1, less than average.
During summer the answer might be A3, to save weight.
I suppose that means during Spring/Fall it might be A2, same as rest of body..

Depends on whether I'm actively moving or sitting still!

When I'm actively hiking, just a headband (Smartwool) is plenty enough. Otherwise I get too sweaty. I generally wear just a medium weight baselayer top and wind shirt, plus perhaps a lightweight fleece vest, when I'm moving. When I'm sitting still, I have a fleece balaclava, a puffy jacket and often my rain jacket (the only jacket I have with a hood).

Just a note: Here in the Pacific NW, winter temps are generally in the 20s or 30's and it's just as apt to be raining as snowing. Of course we occasionally get ferocious east winds out of the Columbia River Gorge which send wind chill temps down below zero, in which case it's bundle up in everything I own when outside and curl up by the wood stove the rest of the time. It's well known in the Portland area that residents of Troutdale and east Gresham can be spotted by their permanent lean!

When I am actively moving, no covering is needed. A balaclava comes in very handy in the evening when still or sleeping.

For short trips I check the weather forecast, for longer trips I prepare for worst possible conditions.

In winter I add down jacket, short down pants, shoes with vapour barrier, warmer gloves in 3 layers, balaclava, extra wool underwear shirt, warm sleeping bag.

Cotton shell is great when its cold and dry, awful when it's warm and wet. I have not used wool shell much but I gueas it works fine in cold temps with low activity.

For solo day trips I bring a elephant foot down bag in case of an unplanned stay.

Good point about appropriate gear. Although I carry about the same pieces of clothing for CA mountains and north coast, I take more wool items on the coast in moderate/damp conditions. On the coast I just accept being wet and have a dry layer for night and then put the wet stuff back on in the morning. I have a light weight wool zip-T that I can wring out and put on and it really is not bad. In the mountains, I really try to stay dry and take more down gear.

Another big thing about the coast is the wind. Not only check the temp and rain forecast, but look closely at the wind directions. You really need a wind shell on the coast. And tide tables! There are hikes on the coast where you have to hit the tides JUST right. Once I hiked 5 miles barefoot on the beach - cannot say I ever hiked barefoot in the mountains. I do not take wading shoes or camp shoes on the coast - just go barefoot.

I got a 4-oz down sweater last year and really love it. I always take it to the mountains "just in case" for cold mornings. I really do not "need" it most of the time, but for the little extra weight, it is a good piece of "insurance."

Be aware that there can easily be a 10-degree difference from the "forecast" depending on microclimates. Choosing a campsite is as important as extra clothing. When looking at the NWS forecast I poke around and see what the forecast is for various microclimates - click on a valley, then a mountainside, then in a forested area, then in a bare area, near a lake, etc. I think all those factors are built into their forecast models.