Animal resistant bags

Hello everybody, I just wanted to get some opinions on some products that I'm working on, and will have on the market soon. My company is developing bags that block food smells, body odor, and a variety of other smells. These bags are designed for hikers, and campers so that they can place the food in the bags, and avoid any situations with bears, mountain lions, and raccoons. If the animals can't smell the food, they won't destroy your campsite, right? I'm deciding on a name for the bags I'm making, and I need some suggestions. Maybe you could provide some additional input on design styles, and features that you would want to see.

I was thinking of Badger Bags or Badger Bagz or Badger? Do you like the name?

I hope you are aware that some animals - bears in particular - know perfectly well what people smell like and will find a campsite regardless of the presence of food odors, just by the smell of the people themselves - and of course in some areas they know where to look, as they are familiar with the usual campsites. So while an odor-proof bag my be useful in some situations, I personally would not rely on one to protect my food or to keep animals out of my campsite.

And, I might add, odorproof bags are already available through Ursack among others. Ursack considers the odor-proof bag an important part of the bear resistance of the Ursack. Of course with the Ursack, the odor-proof bag is inside a tough, fairly light, fabric (and sometimes aluminum-lined) container.

Moreover, as has been noted on this site in the past, odor-proof bags, when handled with hands that have been used to prepare food and other smelly activities, soon obtain an odor on the outside of the bag where any self-respecting bear can detect it. Sorry, this sounds like a good idea in theory but is not one likely to pass the field testing phase.

I have had my share of experience with enterprising Sierra bears and Grand Canyon ring-tail cats, ravens and squirrels. Based on that experience, I seriously doubt that a simple bag, even odor-proof, without a physical barrier will deter any but the dumbest of them.

Aloksak and Watchful Eye Designs already make numerous sizes of odor-proof sacks, which are sold by many vendors, ranging from REI to BackpackingLight to amazon.com. Googling "odor proof sacks" will bring up lots of hits. Unfortunately, skunkcreationz, your product is probably neither new nor unique.

EDIT--a little more searching shows that Aloksak and Watchful Eye Designs are now the same company, Loksak.

After reviewing the products listed, they are still not 100% effective. Several people claim that the OP sacks are not effective, and break their seal relatively easily. The Ursack seems to be an anti tear style bag, and as far as odor proof, not sure how effective it is.
I've conducted some tests, and so far is is effective against mountain lions, panthers, and raccoons. I'll have to find out how bear resistant it is though. My results are promising, and I'll continue to develop the technologies further.

Mountain lions and panthers are the same creature, btw, and do not bother people's food.

I hang my food in areas where I can do so and use a bear can where required. If I go more often where raccoons and other small animals are an issue I will get an Outsak. You will not be able to keep animals out of food even if they can't smell it - 'coons and bears (habituated ones) are very smart and recognize food by sight now, which is why bears tear into cars in Yosemite for empty ice chests and bags containing clothes, no food smell to speak of. Rangers will instruct you to HIDE these items even if they do not contain food. In areas where animals are not so habituated this is not a problem and a simple bear hang will do.

In my experience OP sacks are odorproof but puncture easily, so aren't dependable over the long haul.

The bigger challenge is cross-contamination in the field. It's going to be difficult/impossible to prevent food and other odor-causing substances from contacting the container's outsides. (I've had training in toxic waste management and disposal, where cross-contamination control is a very big deal.) This might still be manageable, but certainly needs to be considered as part of the system.

In sum, a strong odorproof liner combined with a tough outer sack is something I'd look at, if it came out at a competetive price and low weight (but that's beginning to sound like a lined Ursack).

Cheers,

curious as to how these were conducted. It is real hard to be scientific with wild animals. Especially when trying against a bear that has "learned".

Now, the original question. How about calling it "skunksak"?

Actually, they are two separate species if you accept that the Florida "panther" is actually a mountain lion. Neither of the two species seems interested in getting into peoples food although both will, on occasion, attack humans.

The jaguar or American panther, Panthera onca is a top tier predator in South and Central America, Mexico and southeastern Arizona and southwestern New Mexico http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar. The jaguar ranges into some of the mountains in which I hike although I have never seen one. They have been reported from the Rincon Mountains east of Tucson. They are either spotted like a leopard or jet black: in the photos I have seen, they are beautiful animals. The black variety is mostly called a panther; the spotted variety is usually called a jaguar. There is also an African panther which is actually a black leopard.

The mountain lion, Puma concolor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cougar is widely distributed in North America and ranges south into South America. They are smaller than the jaguar or American panther. They are mostly called either cougar or mountain lion although they are called panthers in parts of the SE. I have also heard them called catamounts.

The Florida "panther" is actually a subspecies of mountain lion http://www.defenders.org/wildlife_and_habitat/wildlife/panther.php It is considered to be one of the more threatened species of wildlife in the world.

And none of these have been known to get into hikers' food!

I disagree. I personally have had a cougar I was hiking with get into my food. She drank most of my hot chocolate, a large share of my scotch, and all of my Lindt chocolate bar!

A two-legged cougar, perchance? Or a Labrador retriever?

Two legged.. I'm sure I'd be dealing with dog barf everywhere if I let a lab get into my lindt chocolate and scotch

There are two issues- 1) really keeping animals out and 2)being certified by regulatory agencies. The second may actually be the hardest to do! I personally would not purchase a bear-resistant system that was not legal to be used in most areas. Ursack is still not certified for use in Kings Canyon-Sequoia NP. You would be wise to contact the regulatory folks early on so you do not end up in a legal mess as Ursack people are currently going through after spending lots of $$ developing their product.

And this is a problem? It was consensual food pilferage, right?

I would be a little concerned that if a bear can smell through a bear canister I am sure that he can probably smell through most any bags unless you have some sort of high tec bag that does not release smells regardless of what they might be that none of know about.I really do hope that you can work this out because if you can you are right before being a rich man. Every hiker, camper and trekker would purchase one if not more just to avoid carrying a bear canister. And if the bags are as good as you say you could still follow bag hanging procedures and have an extra sense of security that if a bear can not smell the bag he sure wouldn't climb a tree to get at it....sabre11004...

I believe the term is quid pro quo.

Cheers,

I have used some of those alosaks and they aren't worth the money you pay for them. They simply do not work. The seals are no good (I have had things get soaked in them). At the present time I will just stick with my bear canisters when I am some where that you may suspect bears are present. Like the last poster said even if you do have odor proof bags the bear will smell you no mater what and I am sure that where most of us trek the bears have seen a many a hung bag of food and he knows exactly what they are. These animals are by no means stupid and they have an uncanny way of figuring things like that out. I have seen it happen. We were once in the Smoky Mountains (many years ago, in the seventies) we had a coleman cooler that was made like a refrigerator with seal, locks and all. We had store this cooler inside our truck as our truck was very near the campsite and the bear almost tore the top of the truck off trying to get that cooler. She had two cubs and was relentless. We finally had to wait until she moved a distance away and we took the two chickens that were in the cooler out and left them for her to get because she would not leave. When we did that, she finally took both chickens and her and her cubs were on their way, thank GOD. She did serious damage to the top and both doors of the truck and it had to have serious repair work whenever we got back to town. We later had a visit from the ranger and he was making us aware of the fact that there was a crazy bear wondering around up near our camp site and we just looked at him and "yeah we know". It was all just a little scary...sabre11004

Thanks for all the advice, feedback is good. From what everybody is saying, bears seam to be very resourceful. Humans = food. In that situation, then nothing will stop them. Obviously, more research is needed, but a good experiment would be to find a location in the woods that has bear activity or other similar animal activity. Put food in bag, and leave it in the location for a week. If you come back, and the food is untouched, then that would show how effective it is in certain conditions. It may not be perfect, but at least it will help reduce your chances of hungry animals.

Also, cross contamination is another factor. To avoid cross contamination, a spray could be used on the outside of the bag to eliminate any additonal food odors.

We always get up and scare away bears that visit the bear canisters in the night. Some bears have figured out how to break into Bear Vaults, after all. Bear resistant containers can be figured out if the bears are given enough time. Which is the other factor in the larger equation. In other areas, raccoons have been known to carefully unzip tents to get in and search for food. Fasteners need to be up to the task as well as bag material.

You only need the thing to work for a single night. That's how long the typical hiker will need it to work. Leaving it for a week will be unnecessary and you may return to find the ants madly harvesting the contents. The food won't be untouched. In some areas, you would be lucky to find the bag intact.

Keep in mind that any spray would need to be odorless. Or, you will be attracting rather than avoiding the wildlife.

Well, that is far from a scientific way to learn anything. Good luck with that one.

Does anybody have any ideas on scientific tests to perform that would convince hikers that the bags work given certain circumstances.

My test of the bags has focused in on 2 different areas.

1. Hide a bag in the forest, and see if the animals can detect it.
2. Hide a small bag in a cage containing say.....a mountain lion, and see if they can smell the meat.

Theory's: If the animals can't detect the food for a period of say a week or 3 weeks within a densely populated animal area within a forest, then it must be effective in repelling odor. The other theory involves the cage. If the caged animals can't smell food within the bag located in the cage, then the probability of it working increases. As a control you can place food within a ziplock and test it for the same period of time, and in the same location.

The problem is that once you've opened the bag, taken food out and put garbage in, your hands have effectively transferred odor from the food packages to the outside of your "odor-proof" bag. There's no way to avoid this without a lot more hand-washing than most of us are willing to do. To get food out of the sack, wash hands very thoroughly, open OP sack, take food out, wash hands very thoroughly, close OP sack. For garbage, collect garbage, wash hands very thoroughly, open OP sack, insert garbage, wash hands very thoroughly, close OP sack. The scent of the soap you wash your hands with before you handle the sack might be enough to attract bears. I think most of us would far prefer a container that bears and other scavengers can't get into.

I never heard of cougars getting into hikers food, so I don't think that's worth bothering with. Freshly-killed game during hunting season might be a different story, but are you making the sacks that big? I'd stick with bears, raccoons, skunks, rodents and birds.

The bear committees (Sierra Black Bear and Interagency Grizzly bear) test bear-proof containers by putting them in with zoo bears which have been captured due to their skill in raiding campsites.

I realize that the threat of cross contamination poses issues, but I found it interesting that it all depends on the type of food too. I put some marshmallows in several of my bags, and the white residue that coated the marshmallows also got on the outside of the bag, I noticed no more attention to the bag than normal. You would think that this powder would smell like marshmallows, and attract the animals. I would imagine that all odors are not the same, and just because you touch it with dirty hands, doesn't mean that the concentrations are enough to attract certain animals.

I agree with Pika. Especially Bears have a keen sense of smell to say the least. They also learn quickly and have been known (personal experience) to break into a car because they saw a grocery sack (which was full of art supplies!) I still hang my food in bear country and had no problem even though bears walked right through our campsite.

You're missing some of the points, or simply not seeing the implications of them...

People who take animal resistant cans or bags do so because they need to. They need to either avoid the food being taken, or avoid the fines incurred in areas like Yosemite as well as avoiding stolen food.

Unless your product is SIBBG approved, it won't be used by the folks who need it the most, ie, hikers going into the regions frequented by habituated Sierra bears. To be SIBBG approved it faces bears stress testing it in zoos, which is how the Ursak is not on the SIBBG list. If the Ursak can't pass, what are you going to do differently? There's an electronic bear bag on the market too - they aren't on the SIBBG list either, probably because bears rip into it anyway.

Bears and their raccoon cousins are plenty smart enough that it doesn't matter if the bag is odor proof. They know what's in the bag.

In areas where the critters aren't habituated, I hang food bags. In areas where they are, I take the bear canister. I am like most of my fellow hikers in the regions I frequent. I don't need or want anything different because a simple odor proof bag is not going to cut it in areas where the bear canister is necessary, and it's extra weight in the areas where the canister is not necessary.

Unless you can come up with some selling point that makes it useful for some other reason, I already have food bags that claim to be odor proof. Are yours significantly different from what's already on the market? I know you think so, but it doesn't sound to me that you're understanding the problem of bears and their sense of smell, which you seem to underestimate greatly.

On the ant comment - very true. On a friends thru hike this past summer the only food she lost was in California where they slept too close to an anthill. Her food bag was full of them in the morning and they had shredded everything - eaten right through freezer bags and more. In like 6 hours. Her bag was wrecked and had nothing to eat.

As for canisters, one thing many don't realize is that they do NOT block smell. Not one bit. The animals can smell it but usually give up as they are not getting a treat fast enough. Issue being that people touch the canisters with food scented hands - that is why the companies tell users to not store the canister near or in the tent. It is also why one is cautioned to not leave it near a cliff, stream, etc where a mad bear pushes it over in frustration. Also why covering in loud neon duct tape is good so you can find it later in the bushes.

Odor bags are only as good as the person using them. You pretty much have to be wearing disposable gloves when opening and closing at home to cover the scent.

I can say this: a fat lazy house cat can smell a jerky package through an odor barrier bag if I touched the outside. That overfed rug wrecked a friends restock supply once and happily shredded the bag and the jerky inside and ate it all. A 19 lb indoor house cat did that!

Nothing and nothing is animal proof. The best they can be is 'resistant' combined with extreme care in keeping the outdoor kitchen clean.

Personally though if I was testing something I'd give a sticky fingered 4 year old the bag to play with, fill up and seal - then leave outside for a pack of starving raccoons. Raccoons are vicious creatures. They have dexterity that bears do not and cunning as well.

Many hikers are slobs, no doubt about that. And that is what makes so many ideas fail - you can't work in the 'too lazy to do it right' factor. That is why bear canisters work so well. As long as the lid is on the device has that factor built in. Almost every time you hear of a failure of a Garcia it was due to the user not tightening down the lid right. And in some occasions the Bear Vault's failures are due to users shaving down the latches, to make it easier to open (which DUH makes it easier for a bear!)

So there you go: Unless you can cover the lazy factor...back to the drawing board

I knew one guy who would purposefully open his rice bag next to a log full of carpenter ants before dinner. It took the ants less than five minutes to fully infest the rice, at which point he dumped it in his pot and cooked up a high-protein dinner.

Lol! One way to get a full meal

I use OPSAK bags inside Outsak bags. Strong, light, and odor-proof. have had great success

I agree that a lot of folk don't read directions. That's been the source of nearly all the Ursack failures (other than the few that Ursack claims the park rangers won't tell them about).

It is also quite true that bears are smart, learn fast and pass their knowledge to their young. While growing up in Wyoming, I was able to observe a whole sequence of the latest in "bear-proof" garbage containers during annual visits to Yellowstone. It seemed that within a year or two of the Park Service's installing the latest and greatest "bear-proof" containers, the bears were inside them! As far as I know, the "war" is still going on.

The idea is to create smarter bears that can be hired on the Park staff. Hopefully they will work for peanuts....

Actually, the Ursack did pass the zoo tests. They even show a live test on their website. That's why they received conditional approval from SIBBG several times. Per SIBBG, the Ursack had too many failures in the field. Most of those were user error, but both SIBBG and IGBC feel that if a product requires any intelligence on the part of the user, it won't work. It is true that Sierra bears are habituated to think that anything in a bag is a pinata and will keep working at it until it gives way.

Supposedly both agencies have stopped testing bear-resistant containers, but the new outfit that was supposed to do the testing isn't. This per an ongoing thread on BPL. The tests that both agencies were using was to smear food on the outside of the container and let a captive bear go at it. This means it's highly unlikely that the OP will receive approval--either nobody will test it or it won't be approved if the standard preliminary tests are used.

Oldranger, LOL!!!

That is funny. Thank you for making my day a little better.

"Hopefully they will work for peanuts..."

Or pick-a-nick baskets, since they would be smaaarter than the average bear.

(If you're too young to get the reference, ask your parents to explain it. Or maybe your grandparents.)

I am not for sure and it may just be me, but I find it difficult to believe that a bear can "rip" the hide off a tree but can not get into a bear "sack" !!!!! For some strange reason, I just find that very hard to believe. I would almost say the same thing for the bear canisters but I can see that it would be hard for a bear to get any type of grip on a bear canister. I think if given enough time with knowledge that there was food in the container, I would bet on the bear every time. I have seen what even a small bear is capable of doing so I am not totally sold on the bear container/bag thing....sabre11004...

Luckily I am barely old enough to be raised on Hannah Barbara.

I might bet the same way. Still, my carbon-steel fiber bear canister is a lot tougher than "tree hide".

For a bear to get fed it has everything to do with leverage. Bears have bad eyesight and go by smell. If they can get the right leverage with teeth/claws they can get into nearly anything.

Hence why bear bagging must be hung out of reach. An Ursack works against leverage by being tied off low - the fabric being resistant to tearing (where nylon will shred instantly).

A canister works due to being wide.