Getting back into it--some questions!

So, after a hiatus from serious backpacking for several years I've decided to get back "into it." Here's the problem: I am just not sure what the sweet spot for gear/trip difficulty should be.

My previous experience consists of several mild to moderate hikes in the southwest (1-3 days), innumberable day hikes, and 3 straight weeks of bushwacking and mountaineering on the Kenai Peninsula with Outward Bound, plus another 4 weeks of various backcountry activity with them (rafting, etc--it was a semester course in college).

So here is my current plan and *tentative* gear list:

Taking the husband and myself on a 3-day (on trail) hike in the Poconos to field test the new gear. Shooting for a pack weight of around 35-40 (doesn't have to be that heavy, figured I'd load it up for training). Then I'd like to get in at least one more weekend trip (Catskills, maybe) before we go to Yosemite the last two weeks of July.

Here's some of the new stuff we've acquired:
--Marmot 2-person tent, Titan, 4lbs 10 oz
--2 40 degree sleeping bags, North Face, 2 lbs 9 oz each
--Compression sacks
--I have my eye on a Gregory 70 Deva, he's still undecided on a pack. I need to go in and try a few once I get over my current run in with the flu (yuck).
--he has some old Lowa boots he wants to keep, I'm choosing between a pair of sturdy trail runners, a heavier pair of Asolos, and a Gore-Tex mid-weight pair of Lowas.
--clothes, we both already have plenty of layers, long undies, etc. I got a new pair of hiking pants, wrecked my last pair caving in the Atlas Mtns (Morocco). My Mountain Hardwear pile jacket is a six year old trooper and REFUSES to die on me.

Still to buy:
--camp stove and pot
--sleeping pads (husband wants inflatable, I prefer foam closed cell)
--various small items, topo maps, bear canister, etc.

Here are my principal concerns:
1) I am worried that the bags won't be warm enough at elevation in Yosemite. We want to do the Sawtooth/Matterhorn Canyon trail in around 6-7 days, I believe the highest elevation is 9,500. I've never dealt with elevation before and I don't know how to judge, but I have a sneaky feeling these bags will not be warm enough even though the temp chart I looked at said 50F as a low at night.

2) What on earth kind of shoe do I need? My old La Sportiva mountaineering boots are hell on earth--they were great on glaciers and miserable everywhere else. But at the same time I'm terrified that if I don't go with the sturdier looking Asolos I'll snap an ankle or the like. Yet, the Lowa Tempest Lo trail shoes I ordered look awfully appealing and have a sweet agressive sole on them. OTOH, I'm also concerned about the lack of ankle protection during rattler season. Help!

3) What is a "normal" pack weight? I was used to carrying 75 lbs in Alaska, I remember a fifty pound pack feeling light. Husband is rebelling at the thought and honestly I'm not hungry to relive dragging around over half my body weight, either. Is it realistic to plan on around a 40 pound pack load for a week in Yosemite? No snow, no ice--so no ropes, helments, ice axes, etc. We're bringing very minimal cooking gear (alcohol stove and one pot+lid, two bowls, two sporks).

4) I always wore my pack very low on my hips (maybe with the top inch or two of belt above the top of my hipbones), but the ones I've tried seem to want to pop up to where they are sitting on my waist whenever I move around, bend, etc. Is this just inevitable, or is there a hipbelt or pack design that helps those of us who like to wear them this low? I HATE when the darn thing pops up near my belly button.



Thank you so much! Know that was a terribly long and rambling post

Oh, one more thing--what is this "getting measured" ya'll speak of in regards to packs? I measured my torso length (16.5), but what else is there to measure?

If you measured it yourself, it might be wrong. It's hard to measure from the "knob" on the back of your neck to your tailbone. They also measure for the hip belt. REI and other sports outfitters will have a handy tool to do this.

Welcome to the board! I'm also getting back into it - still. Over the past two years I have dayhiked myself silly and slowly worked over my gear list. Normal pack weight is a compromise between what you feel safe taking, and what is lightest. (and what fits your budget!)

The sleeping bags are heavy for the temp range. You should probably look into something 30F or lower for high elevation Sierras, or figure out how to augment the bag with an overbag or layers of clothing. Of course, if 90% of the time you are going to places where night temps don't drop to 30 or below, you may want to rent bags or borrow for when you do head for higher elevations. Some folks get a second bag to take in more extreme cold. Temps in Yosemite do vary a lot - we stayed a night in the valley and were comfy at 50-55F then hiked to Little Yosemite Valley (not that much elevation gain) and found ourselves sleeping in 35-40F temps. I was fine, my down quilts are rated to 25F, but others were not so prepared and I think someone actually resorted to sleeping in one of the pit toilet stalls. I have heard that it's 10 degrees for every 1000 feet of elevation gain, but the Sierras have their own weather and it's best to be prepared. 30F minimum is what I would take in summer.

Pack will need to be what fits you and what works for your gear. Most here will say that you figure out the gear, then your pack. I agree - I sold a few packs before I was through. My current gear list vacillates between 50-60 liters, and usually weighs 25-29 lbs inclusive of water. I found two packs that work for me, an ultralight Gossamer Gear Mariposa Plus and a Granite Gear Nimbus Ozone, both of which have swappable hip belts as my hip belt size is different than my pack size. When I need a bear canister or want to take the bulkier synthetic quilt I take the Ozone. You will need to consider the bear canister for trips to Yosemite, by the way. It's mandatory there, and you have to choose from the SIBBG approved list.

If you're looking to lighten your load you may want to research tarptents - some nice 2 person ones available.

I've been wearing Salomon trail shoes and Keen mid height boots, neither one is heavy duty. If you are hiking on trails and not doing "rough stuff" light duty hiking boots are fine. I have found that rattlers tend to be gone; guess I'm a noisy hiker, plus I have trekking poles to push away the unwanted dog or snake. I personally have never used goretex and prefer to have breathable shoes that dry quickly. All my hiking is either in the Sierras or in california coastal ranges. YMMV.

These are not easy questions to respond to. Sleeping bag temp ratings are something IMO best calibrated personally, but in general I agree with Lori that 40F rated bags sound light for the average person (most people?) for where you're going. A 32F rated bag might be fine, especially if you're okay wearing warmth-layer clothes inside the bag if needed. I think many people would bring a 20F rated bag.

Shoe: the bottom line is that there's just no way to tell IMO other than trying on some pairs. And then expect to change your mind after walking a while and try on some others. The shoe that is great for one person is downright lousy or painful for another. I personally wouldn't be concerned about rattler's with respect to ankle protection --- just look at the statistics and demographics of those who get bit. Assuming you don't otherwise need ankle support (possibly related to your overall packweight question), trail runners are a popular choice.

"normal" pack weight --- depends on your hiking style, expectations, and on how much time & money & effort you're willing to throw at the problem. I think for the week long trip you're talking about, a 30 pound total pack weight (including food, water, fuel) is entirely reasonable for a person that has reasonable gear and associated experience. Indeed, you'll probably see people staggering under 50+ pound loads.

I can't comment on the hipbelt issue, but note that if you significantly lower your overall packweight, that could impact the way that your pack rides.

Compression sacks: do you have down bags or synthetic? A lot of people today are somewhat anti-compression sack for down bags, FWIW (me too).

You might consider reading a relatively recent book on light backpacking, Don Ladigan does one called "Lighten Up", Ryan Jordan did one called "Lightweight Backpacking and Camping". Those are the two that come to mind, perhaps Ray Jardine's new book would be good too, dunno; from reading his older book on this topic I think I'd steer someone to at least first read Jordan or Ladigan, but any of those will get the thoughts flowing.

Thanks! You confirmed my hunch on the sleeping bags; I'll return them for some warmer ones. No, they aren't down, we can't afford it.

RE: snakes--yeah, I know, most bites are to the arms or hands of those silly enough to pick them up. I'm originally from outside LA and I've never seen one. Just got a little psyched out.

On the shoes I think I'll keep the trail runners (they were on sale), and try them on this three day test trip.

I'm not sure about the tarp tent business; it sounds intriguing but I've never seen one in person. Will consider.

Sorry they're hard questions to answer, Brian, your answers were good fwiw. I'm still trucking through things like the NOLS guide as a review; after I'll move onto a lightweight book.

I'm partial to Karen Berger's "Hiking Light Handbook." I found it to be a little more middle of the road than the others - touching on the ultralight, but mostly trying to answer the question that is asked a lot here: I'm trying to transition from a 35 or 40 pound load to something lighter, without sacrificing too much comfort; how do I do it?

Shoes: Low cut hiking shoes are fine, in my experience. I too had the big monster Scarpa Manta boots, which worked great climbing but not so much for walking. Now I wear very light trail runners on all kinds of hikes. The Lowa low-cut shoes are very nice, too.

Sleeping bags: 2 pounds 9 ounces for a 40-F bag? Yikes, that's heavy, and I would be cold in those bags a those elevations. A good 30-F rated bag might be a better choice. Down may be expensive, but it's much cheaper in the long run, as down bags outlive synthetic by many years. If that's not enough for you, the Campmor 20-F Down Mummy bags are terrific value, and should be about the perfect temp-range. You can always unzip it and use it as a quilt.

Tent: 5 pounds for two people isn't bad. If you did Outward Bound, didn't you stay under a tarp most of the time? (That's my recollection.) My wife and I have used several shelters from the Tarptent.com site. Their three-person Rainshadow II weighs about 2.5 pounds and has significantly more room than any 2-person tent. It's like a big shaped tarp, but it has a floor and bug netting and a vestibule and all that stuff. Our original Rainshadow easily sleeps three adults, the version-II has more headroom. It's a veritable palace for two people and gear. Tarptents require a little more thought about campsite selection, like a tarp, but it sounds like you have plenty of experience.

Pack weight: 50 pounds is a lot these days, even for traditional hikers. It shouldn't be hard to walk into a local backpacking shop and come out with a set of gear and clothing -- good down to freezing -- that weighs under or around 20 pounds for everything. Add a couple of liters of water and 6 days of food and you are around 35 pounds total weight. You don't need to be a gram-counting ultralight weenie like those of us on this forum. 35 pounds is a whole lot easier on my back than 50 ever was (and I made the transition from Army hiking to civilian hiking, which made 50 pounds look light. Then I got old. Well, older. Now 35 pounds looks kinda heavy.)

Packs: I would recommend a pack in the 60 liter range (4000 cubic inches.) It should weigh absolutely no more than 4 pounds, and there are plenty of great packs in the 3 pound range. These are not ultralight frameless rucks -- we're talking packs with real frames, capable of carrying 35 or even 40 pounds in comfort.

Examples: The Osprey Aether 60 and Ariel 55 or 65 (the Ariel 55 is my wife's pack - she adores it); the Osprey Exos 58; the REI Flash 65; The Six Moon Designs Starlite (my pack for the last 5 seasons -- love it); the Gregory Z-55; any of several packs from U.L.A.; several Granite Gear packs; the Golite Odyssey pack; etc.

If you're not carrying 75 pounds, or even 50 pounds, you do not need a 7 pound pack. Pack technology has advanced leaps and bounds in the last few years, and a good 3 pound pack should be plenty.

Again, none of this stuff is "bleeding edge" ultralight. That's not a place you want to go without some recent experience anyway. But these days it's relatively easy to pack a lot lighter and still be very comfortable in camp.

Kitchen: When my wife and I go hiking, we like to take two small pots (large mugs, really), and eat out of them. That way we have two pots for cooking when needed, and don't need plates or bowls. We have various sizes of Snow Peak titanium mugs, the 600, 700, and 900, and take the appropriate sizes for the trip.

Sleeping pads: The Thermarest Prolite 4 is a very comfortable lightweight self-inflating pad, and was just replaced with the new Prolite Plus pad. My local outfitter has the old model on 30%-off sale, and I expect others will do the same. For a true inflatable, my hiking partner loves his Big Agnes Air Core insulated pad. The latest-and-greatest is the Thermarest Neoair, but it's quite pricey and unproven as yet, though most initial reports are positive.

Good luck. Enjoy the trips.

Hm, thanks Glenn. I looked at Ray Jardine's website and he seems a little extreme for me.

I will be posting a full gear list once we iron the kinks out. Husband is now pulling for a tarp tent after reading Lori's post and checking them out online. They're a little spendy but we'll see (got the marmot for about 100.00 on sale).

We stayed in tents because of the Alaska weather. The course in the Rockies and such use tarps, yeah, but we were camping on snow or glaciers a fair bit, and when we weren't doing that it was raining, and there were no trees for tarp hanging either (you can use rocks, but its a pita). We even had a big group mess tent--why that one, I'm not sure, I think so we could eat out of the rain. I did sleep under a tarp for our two day solos, but we were required to eat since it got quite cold and wet under there (normal groups fast).

Thanks for the advice; I'll take the down under consideration. Do you just stuff it, then, if you aren't supposed to use a compression sack?

I'll take that list of packs with me when I go to try on, thanks!

Ray is a little extreme for a lot of us

OTOH, lots of us like to be comfortable and not carry a lot of weight on our backs. For the trip you describe I know I would probably start with 26 to 28 pounds on my back including water and 7 days of grub. I'm not "ultralight" but more "decently lightweight", with much of my hiking at decent altitude and cool temperatures in the canadian rockies. It is *not* hard to do, but I'd not advise drinking the entire lightweight kool-aid at first on a 6 ot 7 day trip - get into it gradually and try out a few things first. but if your hubby is complaining about the thought of 50 pounds on his back, I don't blame him

Some things to try:

1) Freezer bag style cooking with esbit or an alcohol stove.
reducing your kitchen rig to a small pot and cup each and choosing simple (yet tasty! you still have to like it, not everyone does) and light foods can cut a lot out of your total weight, when you cut back from an army size kitchen, frypans, whisperlite, etc. etc.

2) As mentioned by others - the lightweight shoes work well, I'm a big guy, and I've taken trailrunners on some pretty rough stuff and not hurt myself, but I still prefer boots for
gnarlier stuff. Real trails are still fine in trailrunners though.

3) Save the pack decision as late as possible. if you reduce your weight of what you are carrying down to the 28-35 pound range you don't need to pack that into a 7 pound pack designed to carry moose and elk out of the bush and an expresso machine and barrista in. To put it perspective, both my usual go-to packs for weekend to week long trips weigh about 18 ounces - Now that might be a bit "extreme" because with my system I can carry and be very comfortable with a frameless pack. For something slightly more conventional however, a Gregory Z pack (or I think it's Diva in the female version) weighs about 3 pounds and has a full frame and can carry load..

Your sleeping bags are a bit heavy for their rating. My cheapie MEC down bag that is rated at 32 degrees weighs 600 grams (i.e. about a pound and a half) in size long, and this would be the bag I'd take if I were doing your trip.

Your tent is an OK weight for two, but there are lots of other options which might save a couple pounds. I.E.
http://www.tarptent.com/cloudburst2.html
http://www.sixmoondesigns.com/shop/shopexd.asp?id=47

You could also consider hammocks, but they kind of suck for
couple togetherness.

You've already recieved good suggestions about insulated air mats.

Peruse the "27 pound 7 day pack" and the "18 pound 3 day pack" list that are postedd on the parent site to this forum
http://www.backpacking.net/27-pound.html
http://www.backpacking.net/18-pound.html

I've also got my list posted - see below.

You probably can't do all at once, but start thinking about it
carefully and you can probably keep yourself very comfortable in the mid-30 pound range without too much trouble

Oh, and I'll risk being told I'm a nekulturny bag killer - I do put my down bags in compression sacs for trips. I take them out immediately after and store them correctly. Never had major issues.

Before you say you can't afford them, check around first. Campor has a 20 degree down bag that's lower quality down, but it's less than 200. Also sometimes you can find secondhand down bags of better brands in forums (Feathered Friends, Nunatuk, Western Mountaineering, Montbell).

I got around the "expensive down bag" issue by getting a quilt. I would use my Jacks R Better 3 season quilts on the ground if I ever had to, they work wonderful with my hammock and were 220-260 (got one on sale). I also figured in that synthetic will not last as long as down. I fully expect to be using these quilts even after I'm too decrepit to backpack, because I also have used them on my bed. (I don't care that they're bright green, they're light and warm and I don't care for heavy bedcovers. )

Gaaack. REI has theirs on super cheap at the outlet thing right now..

http://www.rei.com/outlet/product/780903

115 bucks for a 29 ounce +20F down bag is not too shabby..

Hrm, I'll look into it. When I say we can't afford it, keep in mind I paid 46 for the ones we have (fully returnable though) and we're both grad students!

It might be worth the investment, though I'd been planning on making the pack my major splurge item.

Thanks for the link! Those REI ones are so on sale it makes my teeth itch.

Chava
Do your sleeping bags zip together? Have you tried it? Zipping them together will keep you much warmer. They are undoubtabley synthetic to weight so much, that can be a good thing on long trips in wet weather.

I've used my 40 degree down bag in the Sierras at 28 and I was just a bit cool with my clothes on and my jacket over me.

Mosquitoes are a problem in the Sierras, tents are nice

I like a PUR camper filter in the Sierras, because its fast - so less time in mosquitoes by the lake.
Jim

Given that cost is an issue, if you have time and access to a sewing machine, an option is to make some of your gear.

A couple of places to look:
http://www.backpacking.net/makegear.html
http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/gear/homemake/index.html

Tents, for example, Henry Shires (tarptent.com) gives away the design details of one of his older (but still excellent) single wall tents at http://tarptent.com/projects/tarpdesign.html