Floorless Shelter Help

I am considering trying a floorless SilNylon shelter. The only issue that I can see is a possible lack of wind resistance. If anyone out there has any input I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks

Hi Luke and welcome <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Seriously if that the only issue you see, then you have come to the correct place. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> How about laying in the dirt, ground insects and crawly things, mosquitoes, getting wet in rain from water blowing under, flowing under, and condensation on silnylon. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Have you used silnylon shelters before? Any kind of tarp? Why floorless? To be UL? Personally I like a floor and zipped mosquito screens. I just wonder if you have the experience to be using a tarp in any but nice weather, no offense. Maybe you can tell us a bit more about yourself and your gear/expectations.
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jim,

The main reason for a floorless is staying UL. It will be used on an Alaskan Dall Sheep hunt. I am an experienced mountain hunter/guide and am looking for another way to save weight. I used a MSR Twin Peaks last year for a few days that ways provided by my outfitter. We did not have a ground cloth and were rained on three of the four nights we slept under it with no issues. Bugs aren't a problem and I don't have an issue with giving up some comfort for the weight savings. The only concern that I have is the one I mentioned before (wind). We don't usually experience heavy wind but you never know. Thanks for your help. I appreciate it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Look at the tents offered by a forum sponsor Ti Goat.

I have a Kifaru Paratipi and have hiked with a guy that uses a BetaMid. Both are very stable in the wind.

Lots of stakes.

I live/camp in Alaska and use the MSR Twin Peaks. I've had it out in pretty heavy winds... you need good staking, but it performs very well. Is there a particular reason you don't want one of those?

MNS

I do not have an issue with the twin peaks. I was looking at a Black Diamond Beta Light because it's a few ounces lighter. The only downside is that the specs list the Beta Light as having 34.7 sq ft vs. 45 sq ft with the Twin Peaks. I guess thats something that I'll have to decide on. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Luke remember that you are hunting and the larger footprints might be hard to pitch tightly in your terrain. There is a sacrifice in either weight or comfort directions on most shelters; but you also need to consider the footprint.

I say take a look at Henry Shires TarpTents. Very well made, and you can get them floorless. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Jim,

You never got back to me on wheter or not I have enough "experience" to be using one of these shelters. The more I thought about it, the more I realized how tacky you were in asking. Just because somebody may be new to your forum don't underestimate their experience because they're asking questions or want to try something new

LukeW.
Don't take it personally. The regulars on this forum respond (almost always politely) to some pretty inexperienced individuals and some "interesting" (read silly) questions. It is difficult to tell from a post such as yours how much experience lies behind it. Better to assume the worst than to presume knowledge and experience that is not there. If that annoys the OP it is regrettable but it is still better than putting them at risk.

Jim Shaw is good people and an asset to this e-community.

My daughter often reminds me that I have not expressed my concerns tactifully, but she never questions my good intentions.

LukeW
Oh sorry Luke. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Why should I get back to you on whether you have enough experience? Thats not for me to judge, its for you to judge, I just make suggestions>
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

The reason I asked is becasue we know nothing about you. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />Thank you for explaining what you are gonna do with it and where yer gonna go and what your experience level is. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />Sounds to me like yer tough enough to deal with adverse weather, but a lot of people writing in with just a few posts do not have the Alaska backcountry experience that you have. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> How would I know?

[Had you explained more in your post, you would not have gotten the same input] <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So - with lots of stakes or good guying you should be be able to weather anything, BUT you may not like it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
I spent a summer camping in Alaska in a cheapo single wall tent and its always wet. If you don't have a reasonable space in the tent you will become a sponge cleaning off the condensation. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> YMMV

Jim,

No Problem. Now it's my turn to apologize about flying off the handle. You are absolutrly right in that I should have explained myself a little better in the beginning. I get a little testy sometimes because of past experiences in pack/paddle shops. More than once I've been treated a litlle poorly when I explain my applications and store folks think that I'd be better off in a Bass Pro Shops or Cabelas store. I also apologize to everyone else that had to read my little jab a Jim. I plan to continue hanging out here. I've all ready picked up some useful stuff.

Luke

Luke, this is why we ask folks who sign up here to FILL IN YOUR PROFILE. Had you done that Jim and the rest of us could've read a bit about you and better understood your experience level. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

In as rugged terrain as you hunt durabilty of the fabric walls should be a concern foremost IMO.

FWIW, Luke, I know people who have carried a Betamid up Denali and used it as their place to hang out, cook, eat, etc. They used it as a roof over a large snow pit. They had lots of visitors when they had it set up at the 14,000 foot basecamp. As I'm sure you're aware, the weather up there can be unforgiving and the betamid did not disappoint. I'll say the same for my Twin Peaks - it is a heavier grade of silnylon, but I have no fear that it will shred on me.

MNS

I've had wind stability issues with my Megamid at times - it's all about how well the stakes hold. If you have good ground and good stakes, they can stand up to pretty strong winds. But if the ground is soggy or soft and you have skinny little stakes, they will pull out and down it comes. This actually has nothing to do with the fact there is no floor, it is due to the fact that you've got center poles and are relying on the stakes to hold the tension that keeps the shelter up. This is more of an issue with the Megamid or Megalight than the Beta or Twin peaks, since the latter two are smaller and so present less area for the wind to exert force on. In other words, pyramid style shelters work fine in the wind IF you choose your spots carefully and carry good stakes.
And by the way, as far as I can tell (having done some research before buying a twin peaks) the twin and beta are very close to the same size. The areas quoted are not the total covered area in either case - in the case of the Beta it is the area of the Beta floor, which they consider the useable area. I read about one person using the Beta Bug under a twin peaks, it worked fine, so they have to be pretty close to the same size. The Twin has slightly heavier fabric, and has a vent at the rear peak. I also like the way the door opens up one side of the front instead of up the middle.

Luke,
I've used a floorless Virga tarptent in some pretty high winds and heavy rain. I was camped on a lake with not much cover and a storm blew in. I lowered the pole and pulled down the one side that was getting more rain and wind and things were just dandy. There was a bit of misting along one edge, but the ground under me was dry the entire time. I used a plastic ground cloth that was just a bit wider than the tent so it could go up over the edges to keep water out.

I don't know what style you're interested in, but Silnylon can take a beating. Now, if I were in that mess for days...it most likely would seep thru. But I'm guessing here.

Hope that helps.

This is not properly a "Mountaineering!" post !

But here's my blow-hard two cents !

A floorless tent is far less prone to condensation than a "cheap-o single wall tent ! "

Also, the very nice thing about condensation (also leaks, spills, etc) in a floorless tent is, it doesn't collect on the floor, because there is no floor. This is a huge advantage in many circumstances. The most extreme example might be emptying pee bottles in deep snow and deep freeze.

No problem!

Another nice thing about them? There is distinct tendency for them to be much larger than tents with floors. Cramped tents and condensation don't mix well.

Adding to a random list of advantages, the floor of a floorless tent is guaranteed to never wear out or require maintenance of any kind.

The only particular concern is to select a site such that in the event of heavy rain, you don't find yourself where surface water collects or runs off. When using a tent with a floor, this is also an important consideration, although slightly less critical.

Although they are in the main as stable in wind as any other tent, there can be some difficulty protecting occupants from wind-chill via infiltration around lower edges.

This problem varies with set-up, and the particular design of the tent in question. Assuming a door of some sort, the concern disappears in snow, when the stuff is banked around the edges very effectively. Especially in the autumn in deciduous forest, fallen leaves can serve a similar purpose. In very unfavorable circumstances, I've used stones and logs, but this cannot be recommended.

My personal dogma, is that a sleeping bag cover or bivy of 1 pound or less, is ideal addition to camping kit, provided that it is highly breathable.

This works particularly well with tarp tents as the cover seals you from the wind, and enables one, if so inclined, to dispense entirely with ground sheet, wlthough this becomes dubious in mud.

Assuming careful selection of equipment, the added weight of sleeping bag cover can simply be deducted from weight of sleeping bag, and for equal weight one ends up with an equally warm sleeping system that is more durable, versatile, and weather proof.

My girlfriend strenuously (but so far ineffectually) objects to lack of floor in a hot and humid forest in New England summertime, due to forest floor insect life. Since these creatures don't bite for the most part, it's a matter of personal tolerance during 10 weeks of the year.

In coastal Northwest mountains, California deserts, and certain other environments, ground-dwelling insects are far less in evidence than in Northeast, though admittedly, there are large slugs in Western Washington's lower elevations. Certain beach environments may have biting flies that live in the sand. Sand, by the way, is absolute hell on tent floors.

Mosquitos are another matter. Keeping doors closed works well with floorless tents. But full netting & floor is probably most effective in severe conditions.

I own four floorless tents currently. My favorite is the Hex 3, now with a new name and same design. It's a great shelter for one or two people in four seasons. Extraordinarily resistant to wind due in part to its hexagonal shape. Very easy, or relatively easy, to stake down tight to the ground, unlike some others in class. Similar design used by Scott in Antarctica. Failure of expedition was not due to tent design.

Second favorite is Twin Peaks. Bigger than BD Betamid, or not bigger ? It's now "new and improved, sold as "Twin Sister" with addition of storm flaps intended to address wind and bug infiltration. Two rigid poles and eight or more staking points = extreme wind resistance relative to most tents. Its lower profile and volume makes it warmer than Hex in winter.

Henry Shirer tents I don't own, but I have something very similar that was briefly manufactured by Mt. Hardwear, called Batwing. I can tell you that having an open front makes little sense in hard rain. The mosquito netting is nice enough in front, but I have some doubts about the fringe along the edges.

My fourth is SilShelter -- supposedly a 2-person. After a couple of weeks of increasingly cold evenings, I found it too small for one person. With a zillion staking points designed into the thing, it can be made secure in a wind. The door design is freaky, and not particularly worthwhile.