Follow up question about ultralight down jackets

Based on all the great feedback in my previous post about UL down jackets I have reached the conclusion that I probably don't want a UL jacket if the shell is super delicate or likely to get ripped or holes from typical use on BP trips.

As I look at the spec's on jackets I am trying to understand the relative durability of these fabrics. Can anyone shed any light on the difference between lets say:

30-denier Ballistic rip-stop nylon vs.

0.9 oz Dot-Ripstop Nylon vs.

15-denier Ballistic Airlight nylon shell, 40-denier nylon taffeta for reinforcements

If its above freezing where you will be wearing it, you might want a rain/wind shell over it anyway. A UL down jacket has to part of a layered system, as it isn't that warm alone. For me the best use might be to carry in my pack just in case while skiing, and put it on under my shell, which is generally heavy duty and as heavy as the down jacket. I will say that I have not torn the UL jacket, but it wouldn't take a lot to do it. The very thin nylon makes for a cold jacket and most anything worn over it makes it warmer. In my own opinion, carrying a down jacket with less than 10 ounces of down is a waste.
Jim

I wear my down stuff in camp and in cold weather, on trail breaks. I don't hike in it so I'm not going to slice it up, so the lighter the fabric, the better.

Cheers,

I don't hike in mine, either--don't want to get it sweated up. It's strictly a layering piece for rest stops and in camp, and will always be worn with either a wind shirt or rain jacket.

I have to wonder what you mean by durability.

I don't think of down layers as needing to be durable. You need to stay away from sparks and branches, but that's the case with all nylon. It would take truly inclement conditions to make me hike in down layers, and then - I would be wearing the waterproof shell over the top of them.

I just got a pair of down pants - woowee, warm stuff. Would not want to walk in 'em.

Lori- the durability question comes from the suspicion that the UL jackets shell feels super thin (it is!) and seems that it could be torn pretty easily. Others have said they would not hike in their UL down pieces which makes sense.

So I'm wondering if there is a more better/heavier shell material that is more durable. I'd rather have a 12-14oz jacket that I don't have to worry about snagging than a UL 7-9oz jacket doesn't hold up.

All of the jacket specs list the shell material but I have no idea what the numbers really mean.

Oh- I shoudl mention that I got a whole hour to look at jackets at REI (without kids!)and really liked the Marmot ROM soft shell. Super comfortable, windproof, highly water resistant,breathable....and durable!

Soft shell material isn't always windproof. I have one that the wind sails right through, despite it being labeled windproof. Proof is in the wearing. I rarely wear it - it's not a very warm layer, but I've used it while snowshoeing, and put on the down when stopped.

Don't believe I have ever snagged my down jacket. I have a small tear in my Montbell Thermawrap Parka, on the sleeve. Duct tape fixed it. Along with the tear on the heavy duty fabric my ULA pack is made of! There is a point where everything will tear. I seem to be great at finding them....

"durability" involves two aspects- tear strength (pull on both ends, pressure on the fabric) and puncture strength. Even light weight nylon is quite strong AS LONG AS you do not puncture it. Rip stop nyon mitigates this by making the puncture not continue into a big rip - it is stopped by the grid pattern made of extra sturdy threads. Most "tafeta" type light weight nylon without those grid patterns (and woven rather loosely) tears pretty easily, regardless of the thickness of the fabric. Nylon tafeta is really a lining material. Fine on the inside of a down jacket, but probably not ideal for the outside. At the other end of the spectrum is nylon pack cloth that is made from sturdier threads, woven tighter, and some has grid threads made of spectra or other high tech very tough threads. As for comparing different nylons, google "nylon, denier" - you may find more information.

You cannot have both wind-proof and any breathability. You really do not want total wind-proof - you would sweat like crazy! I have an old ArcTerex jacket that has a stretchy back and under arms that breathes well (back of jacket is covered by pack when hiking)so my back does not get too sweaty, and the top of arms and front are a different windproof fabric. The jacket weighs 12 oz and is my "go-to" jacket to wear at high altitude while hiking. A lot of bicycle jackets are made this way - more windproofing on front side, less on back. You actually may want to check out bicycling jackets. You will pay big $$$ for a truely tough yet light soft shell jacket. High end climbing stores carry this stuff. I am a big an of ArcTerex but their stuff is really expensive.

This will probably sound rude. I do apologize.
I don't think you know what your looking for, or at least you aren't communicating it very well.
A down jacket has pretty much one purpose. It is that extra insulating layer to give you more warmth. Compare it to fleece or another synthetic jacket that is solely for insulation.
With a layering system, you generally have 3 layers. The first is the next to skin layer, think long johns. The next layer is an insulating layer. This can be one piece or many, depending on the seasons and expected temps. The last layer is the wind/waterproof layer.
The last layer doesn't insulate, and the inner layers aren't waterproof. If the jacket has the name "shell" in it, then it is most likely an outer layer. This is the gortex stuff, or eVent or other types of waterproof/breathable. I would say the most durable are made from canvas and coated with oil to make them waterproof.
So, my question is, are you looking for an insulating layer, or an outer shell?

That didnt sound rude...I was in the Army 9 years so you have to do better than that to offend me!

I have a decent outer shell, it's a Sierra Designs Hurricane waterproof jacket.I have alot of base layer type shirts, short and long sleeve moisture wicking material.

What I lack is a jacket I can put on when it's cold, that is reasonably warm and reasonably durable. The REI Revelcloud is about the weight I am looking for, maybe a tad more insulation would be OK. I'd like a hood. I'd love to have pit zips but not required. Must have moderate wind and water resistance but really if it's cold and raining the rain jacket will come out pretty quick.

I'd like to keep the budget @$200 and if I find the right jacket I will keep it for years and years. So it has to be reasonably durable. Really I'd love a puffy down UL jacket, but I suspect it would end up with snags, tears, burn holes, etc.

That's where I've been trying to understand what is a more durable shell material and maybe I can get a somewhat heavier but more durable down jacket that meets my criteria.

I really did like the feel and fit of the Marmot ROM jacket, but I'm still looking!

If you have an outer shell that is waterproof, then you don't really want that feature on another jacket. It seems you do want a middle insulating layer, but you are constraining it to be something it is not. You don't want a middle layer to be waterproof.
I guess to me, it sounds more like you just want a fleece or wool jacket. Windstopper fleece will be wind resistant, to an extent. A good quality wool jacket will also be wind resistant, to a point. If either gets wet, it isn't bad. In fact, just hiking around with your body heat usually dries them off. The polyester fleece will dry faster, of course. They are also pretty durable and even if you do tear them, they are easily repaired.

Yeah, makes sense not to have the mid and outer layer both being waterproof. I guess I see my rain/wind shell as a last resort when there is persistant rain or unexpected low temps or maybe excessive wind. Since I can be hot natured the only time I really bundle up heavily is when it's pretty darn cold. So essentially the mid layer would be my main jacket and if it wasn't warm enough I could add another LS shirt or even a sweater.

Thanks for all the input and patience. I tend to over analyze, plus I have only been on one real cold weather trip and I was cold so I'm still learning. Lastly I don't have alot of money to waste on a jacket that doesn't work well.

BTW, if you do want an insulated mid-layer to hike in, a synth fill, shelled jacket or vest works great. The fill won't fail when wet from sweat and the slick shell fabric glides between your shirt and outer shell. I find fleece, while it's warm and not subject to moisture failure, binds and rumples.

Cheers,

I'm very very happy with western mountaineering flight jacket as a down mid layer, 11 oz 850 down bliss! Simi tough shell that's water resistant but very breathable. Combined with my mountian hardwear epic shell I can handle most tempatures.

Eat well and stay hydrated. Change into dry (I don't mean feels dry, I mean dry) base layer to sleep in. Drink plenty of hot beverages, eat a snack and walk around before bedtime.

As I only do one to two nights at a time in winter, I simply add a layer or two to my three season gear. Now in the lineup - Marmot down jacket, OR down beanie, a wool beanie, balaclava, merino liner gloves, fleece warm gloves, shell gloves, primaloft booties for sleeping, heavy merino socks (2 pair), mid to heavy weight base layer, and now - down pants. Plus the waterproof shell layer. I have a windproof Mountain Hardware technical fleece I take for wearing while in motion, if it gets that cold - a midweight base layer and the wool beanie, if the weather is fair, is adequate most of the time when in motion, and a layer gets thrown on the minute we stop. Soft shell pants with full side zip and a midweight base layer for the bottom for during the day and frequently I'm ventilating by unzipping halfway. Not sweating out my clothing is the real goal. (This is snowshoeing I'm talking about... going to coastal destinations in winter, it's just three season gear with full rain pants/jacket instead of a poncho.)

I hate being cold. I don't even try to go light - I go comfortable. Think my winter weight goes up to 30 - 35 lbs for an overnight two day trip. I also take a shovel, and the tipi tent instead of the tarp/tarptent.

Oh - and glacier glasses or goggles.

In warmer months - I might wear the UL jacket in camp for warmth without an extra shell. Sometimes I carry el cheapo rain pants and jacket that do not breath - not breathing at all does make them warmer over a down jacket but you have to be aware of you potential to sweat it up. Around camp the combination works, BUT I use that combo because I _could_ wear the rain gear alone in rain, but I do not expect it (thus the el cheapo gear - I would have different shells if I expected rain), AND if the jacket had a more windproof shell I would not need a shell over it for warmth.

Maybe I use my down gear in more intense of situations than many, but I do love to wear down (goretex shelled) bibs in the winter with an extra goretex pant layer over them (to protect the thin goretex of the bibs). I hate to wear 4 layers and often in the winter you have long underwear, fleece jacket, down jacket, and overshell - on the top side. 4 layers binds you, 3 is better, 2 is ideal (like for skiing) if you can manage it.

I can wear a wicking long underwear, a fluffy piece of something over it - even a technical shirt or something, and then pull on a one piece winter down coat with a goretex shell. Having one of these big coats means not needing the weight of a shell over it, AND more freedom of movement. My coat weighs 40 ounces. Few winter shells weigh under 20 ounces.

There are many cheapo down coats with waterproof shells that could be further seam sealed, available from many inexpensive sources such as Cabelas, which were designed for hunters or folks who live in places like I do. If you take the weight of a UL down jacket and add the weight of a shell, you might be able to get a one piece jacket cheaper and around the same weight for well inder your $200.

You do not have to throw money at the problem unless you want to.
Jim

I picked up a REI Revelcloud today. The price was right ($103) and the jacket is pretty light and very comfortable. Since it was so inexpensive I don't have to worry as much about damaging it, and the fit is pretty loose so I can easily add another layer under it if it's not warm enough on it's own. The only thing I wish it had was a hood, but I picked up a light balaclava that seems to work well too. We'll see how it all works next weekend, we're planing to go to Grandfather Mtn in western NC. We'll hike up to about 6k ft with 2.5k of elevation gain in about 3 miles. Probably will be in t-shirts by the time we make it to the top!

I have a western mountaineering flight down jacket and it is a slice of pure heaven. 10 oz advertised but came in at 11.5oz