Ultralight down sirts/jackets and durability....

I have been lusting after one of these super light, warm, versatile down shirts or jackets for a couple of months. I've yet to buy one because #1 I already have functional jackets (old) and #2 I feel that if I wait a couple months or less there should be good sales.

But after reading some reviews I am starting to question the durability of these items due to the super thin fabrics they use to achieve ultralight weights.

Personally if I am going to spend @$200 on a jacket I want it to be durable and be able to use it for years. But...at the same time I know my pack weight will creep up if I use this philosophy on alot of my gear; long term durability generally means heavier items, and piece by piece this adds up.

So does anyone have a suggestion for a light, durable, versatile, down jacket? I have a good light rain shell, and always have a thin long sleeve base layer in the winter, I'm just trying to settle on a light jacket/overshirt. I like fleece too but I think this item should at least be water resistant, and most of the down jackets have a DWR finish. For me means this jacket would be my primary outer layer except when it's really cold...

I've become a huge fan of my Montbell Ex Light down jacket. It's light enough that I'm more inclined to toss it in on a day hike or layer it with something else on a backpacking trip to have excellent warmth flexibility.

It certainly is a delicate item, in two ways. First, the fabric just seems delicate, so that if I'm at all likely to --- say --- lean my back against a tree or walk through a brushy area around camp, then I'll put my rain shell over it to protect it. You just have to be more careful I think, and so far so good. It was my warmth layer on the CDT in 2011, so 4 - 5 months of use and it's fine.

The other aspect of care is the zipper. These really lightweight items have pretty weeny zippers that can go out on you. Keep it clean and perhaps even use silicone lubricant once every so often. Know how to pinch a zipper pull tighter if/when it gets loose. And keep your fingers crossed. Mine is a little sticky now but overall does still work. In retrospect, for a lightweight down piece like this I'd rather a pull-over with a relatively deep neck zipper --- because I'm never going to wear it without wanting it at least somewhat zipped up.

To be clear, I would never, ever walk on trail with this on, or any down-filled item. It's for in-camp only for me. In colder weather I layer this with a synthetic vest, which I will hike in when it's cold.

+1 to everything brian said.

The ultralight down jackets (my wife loved her montbell ex light) are wonderful, but you have to treat them carefully. I have friends who use the same Montbell Inner Down Jacket for 10 years now. If you are looking for durability (e.g. you won't want to think about what you do while wearing the jacket) then you will want something that have a significantly heavier fabric.

As to water resistant... I would skip this and just be careful. Life Brian, the only time my down comes out is in camp where it is protected from rain / snow. IF I expected to use it in situations where it would get wet I would go for one of the new water resistant downs rather than a water resistant shell. The treatment that Patagonia has been working on (will do a limited release in Spring 2013) sounds really good, though will be pricy.

--Mark

Good stuff guys, I didn't even consider that I would/should not wear one of these UL jackets while hiking. So with that being said what would you hike in if the weather was cold enough to require a jacket and maybe a chance of rain?

In the past I have worn either a cotton hoodie or a inexpensive fleece jacket, in both cases a long sleeve moisture wicking shirt. I also have a rain shell I can add as needed.

Now I'm thinking a goretex type shell with pit zips would be a better option....

cotton hoodie

Cotton is a word that triggers response...
The only time I would suggest cotton is either for very hot weather where having a damp (from sweat) layer can be beneficial (I use wool for that...) or VERY cold weather (that is around zero or below) where breath ability is important and humidity is non existent (you need to remember not to sweat in it, so move slowly...)
Apart from that cotton is bad because it takes a long time to dry and unlike wool it feels cold when wet.
So in my case (min temp usually around 20f) I walk around with a thin wool T , a fleece shirt or top over that and an eVent rain jacket over it.
It is important to have warm feet, gloves and a warm hat .
My down jacket (a WM Flash) goes over the other layers and under the (slightly over sized) "rain jacket" if required.
The shell of my down jacket is very thin so yes you do need to be careful, so if you find that normally you scrape against things, maybe it isn't for you.
I do have warmer and more solid jackets but they don't fit as well in my layering system.
(I sleep with that puffy jacket and pants to boost my lighter sleeping bag)
BTW, if you have most of your base layer wet (from sweat) when you arrive at camp, you are wearing too much.

In my opinion, the best insulating layer to wear if hiking is wool. It breathes quite well, is warmer than cotton when wet and has a large temperature range for which it is comfortable. My medium weight(Ibex) and light weight (Terramar) wool zip mock turtle neck collared T's are my go-to layers for hiking in cold weather. If you are willing to spend $200 on down, then you are in the $$ range for wool (Smartwool or Ice Breaker are also good brands). I am not too concerned with the weight because I mostly wear this layer. It seldom is in my pack. I am very pleased with my light weight T that I can actually wear in the rain, wring out at the end of the day. It is black, absorbs sunlight and dries enough to put back on in a few hours. I also have the Montbelle 4-oz down sweater. I consider this a luxury, and use it on cold mornings in camp. I got mine for about $120 on sale. I wanted one for several years but just waited until a good sale came along. It is so light that it always goes with me. I love it! In summary my three layers of insullation are: wool zip T, Montbelle down sweater, and microfleece. If below temps are to be the nornmal, I go to a 200-wt fleece (Pagtagonia). I like the combination of three different materials - each with its own advantages in various climates.

Cotton hoodie - great for around the house, going out with friends, but never take it hiking; there are far better alternatives-fleece being one. Franco is partly right-cotton in very cold weather is good for outerwear. Here is an example-
http://www.empirecanvasworks.com/arcticanorak.htm
These are not for insulation, outerwear only and only for sub freezing weather.

For conditions like you suggest, I would start with a base layer, such as Capilene or merino wool-top and bottom. Mine is midweight Capilene and has lasted a very long time. Patagonia now has four different weights, not three as it did when I bought mine. I also bought an expedition weight top last year at the big Patagonia half price sale. Very warm. Next add a fleece jacket. Mine is an inexpensive Columbia and it too has lasted for years. I wear it year 'round, even in LA, one of the best things I ever bought.
Outerwear - I have an REi Element rainjacket and Marmot Precip pants.

This combo should work down to the mid 40's if I am moving. Once I stop, depending on where I am and how cold it will get, I will have a TNF down parka, a pair of fleece or insulated pants and the usual collection of mitts and gloves and a fleece beanie or balaclava.

As you can see, everyone has different ideas depending on what they like and what they can afford. You don't need to spend big bucks to be comfortable, in spite of what the manufacturers and retailers would like you to think. They aren't quite as bad as cell phone makers, but close. To follow up on what WD said, wool hasn't gone out of style for thousands of years and there is a good reason for that.

I couldn't agree more wool wool wool! I love my ice breaker top and bottoms. I also have a set of light weight smartwool. I also have 10 yo capilene that is good as new that gets ton of use.

On the othe hand I have western mountaineering down jacket that is like pure heaven around camp when it's cold, 11 ozs!

I also have a lightweight patigonia hoodie that works well, just never use cotton for temp, except extreme high tempatures.

I don't think you can find a clean consensus on this; different people will have different (all entirely "valid") preferences.

It depends in part on your expectations, and in part on your metabolism and just general physiological ("body") response to hiking in differing weather conditions. I've had good luck with light shell (water resistant or not depending on conditions) coupled with either a synthetic puffy garment (I love my Montbell thermawrap vest) or synthetic "fleece" type.
If you like hoodies, rather than a cotton one, try something along the line of a Patagonia R1 Hoody. They can be a bit of a PITA to pull on and off, however, or at least mine is --- just seems to be a lot of friction between the hoody fabric and the shirt I'm wearing underneath (and mine seemed to come sized a bit on the small size).

What I particularly suggest, or at least something I like to do, is go a bit lean on core body warmth and a bit heavy on layers to protect the extremities. I.e., in cold weather I like to start off with my core cool, but stout mittens over thin liner gloves, earbags and a hat under a polypro warm hat. Then as I warm up I pull off the warm hat and perhaps the mittens and stick them in pockets without having to stop to adjust. Certainly in this context having a deep or full-length zipper on core (torso) clothing is very nice.

I think that finding the right mix for conditions is something we each have to grope our way towards individually --- I know that some clothing combinations that seem right for experienced friends wouldn't be right for me.

My experience is similar to others ... that I don't wear puffy insulation while hiking until is significantly below freezing. Down to around freezing, a light base + a windshirt keeps me comfortable. Below that I often use an R1 hoody. Actually, I have used the R1 hoody in weather that's a bit warmer.

I agree with Brian that the R1 is a PITA to take on and off... but I have found that I typically don't need to do that. Between the deep front zipper, and pushing the sleeve up to my elbows, I can typically vent enough heat so I don't have to the the take off, put on dance.

--Mark

I use a Feathered Friends Daybreak and love it. It has been very durable and warm. I use on my weekly backpacking trips and around town. When I bought mine it was made with 850fp now it's 900.

Never heard of Feathered Friends Zippy, I checked their website and I'm not sure you can get the daybreak anymore, but I may look at their other jackets closer. Made in USA, worth paying a little more for if you ask me. I dont know if any of the big name brands are made in the USA, I'd guess all TNF, Patagonia, Marmot etc are made in Asia.

http://featheredfriends.com/Picasso/Garments/Lt/Daybreak.html

They are still making it but for some reason it is hard to find on the site. Another jacket that is in the USA is Western Mountaineering. They have some nice looking jackets too.