down sleeping bag

Posted by: skippy

down sleeping bag - 12/30/09 03:19 PM

Any preferences on a good down bag in the 20 degree range that won't break the bank? I have nursed a beast from the east Slumberjack for over 10 years and am somewhat sick of its weight (I will never weigh it until I have to no longer carry it as this would be depressing) and lack of warmth.

Under 200 beans.

-Skippy
Posted by: Eugene

Re: down sleeping bag - 12/30/09 03:57 PM

I only see two on REI that fit the bill.
http://www.rei.com/product/762605
http://www.rei.com/product/780026

Strangely enough, the +15F Sierra Designs bag weighs nearly half that of the +20F Kelty bag. Maybe because the Kelty bag is substantially wider?


Here are a few bags at Cabela's...don't know if this link will still work for you.
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templa...equestid=119561
Posted by: lori

Re: down sleeping bag - 12/30/09 05:24 PM

The girth is different, and the quantity of fill is different. I would suppose the heavier bag would be more likely to be accurately rated. The lighter one is more likely to be a 30-40 degree bag in actual use.

Campmor's 20 degree down bags are a good budget buy, if you also take into account that the rating is optimistic and figure on more like 25-30 degree comfort. The Campmor brand bag will be around $120-130.

You might also look into quilts. I get true 20 degree warmth with about 20 oz of down quilt. The hat adds about 3-5 oz and I wear midweight base layer and my wool socks. YMMV.
Posted by: OldScout

Re: down sleeping bag - 12/30/09 06:15 PM

Under 200 beans makes it difficult for a truly 20 degree bag that is light weight but they are out there USED. Keep your eyes peeled for sales and at this site and occasionally good deals pop up in bags that you wouldn't normally be able to afford if they were brand new. The trick is to do all of your research ahead of time so when a particular bag pops up for sale, you can hop on it quickly. OldScout
Posted by: idahosteve

Re: down sleeping bag - 12/30/09 07:46 PM

My humble .02 is that this is the one place where you just can't put the budget constraints on. I have bit the bullet on two nice down bags , and they have collectively lasted right at 25 years, and the latest one is only 5 years old.
Spend the money! You can feel the difference when you sleep, and you can appreciate the difference in weight. And in addition, the better down allows you to use a lighter rated bag in colder weather. I regularly use my MH Phantom (30 degree/ 800 loft)in below freezing conditins. With the extra clother I have anyway, its an easy way to add to my bags versatility. Its worth every single penny to spend an extra 50-100 bones! you will never never regret it.
Good Luck!
FYI, there are some great deals on high end bags right now.
Posted by: sabre11004

Re: down sleeping bag - 12/30/09 08:47 PM

A temp rating on a sleeping bag is only to say that you will not die at "that" temp. In other words, a 20 degree bag will not keep you comfortable at 20 degrees. I realize that it does not make any sense but that is just the way that it is I guess...sabre11004... goodjob

P.S. The assumption that a heavier fill will offer more accurate temp ratings is correct
Posted by: sabre11004

Re: down sleeping bag - 12/30/09 08:49 PM

Listen to oldscout... He is giving you some very good advice on your purchase of a decent sleeping bag. Western Mountaineering would be your best bet but to expect to get one for under $200.00 is not very realistic...sabre11004... goodjob
Posted by: hikerduane

Re: down sleeping bag - 12/30/09 08:54 PM

If you come back, I would check out Campmor, I picked up a North Face down bag over 10 years ago for about 1/3 off, but is was only a 35 degree bag, but three pounds lighter than my synthetic bag. They have good deals on gear. Sierra Trading Post also.
Posted by: skinewmexico

Re: down sleeping bag - 12/30/09 09:16 PM

Luxurylite bag on sale.
Posted by: OregonMouse

Re: down sleeping bag - 12/30/09 11:24 PM

Western Mountaineering is one company that does appear to rate its bags accurately, for comfort rather than survival. The 20* F Ultralight Super really does take me down to 20* in just a base layer and (when below 30* F) a non-breathable rain suit as a vapor barrier. And I'm a really cold sleeper! If you can either save the bucks or buy one used, it will be well worth your while!

As a cheaper measure, REI's Outlet is still selling their Sub-Kilo bags (middle-quality down) for $160 for the regular length and $170 for the long. These are, supposedly 750-fill down. I picked up one for my 9-going-on-10 year old grandson. Watch for another 20% off coupon on Outlet stuff, which would let you get it for $130. Not as good, and probably closer to 30* F than the advertised 20*, but should last a while with care.
Posted by: Roocketman

Re: down sleeping bag - 12/31/09 06:21 AM

Originally Posted By sabre11004
A temp rating on a sleeping bag is only to say that you will not die at "that" temp. In other words, a 20 degree bag will not keep you comfortable at 20 degrees. I realize that it does not make any sense but that is just the way that it is I guess...sabre11004... goodjob

P.S. The assumption that a heavier fill will offer more accurate temp ratings is correct


A heavier fill will provide a warmer bag compared to a similarly constructed bag of equivalent fill.

The accuracy of any rating of sleeping bag depends upon the rating methodology used by the manufacturer. Some like to lie more than others. Slumberjack. They greatly inflate the temperature rating and deflate the weight by several ounces.

A down bag of only 8 ounce fill with 800 cu.in./oz will be warmer than a synthetic bag of only 8 ounce fill and it will be warmer than a down bag of only 8 ounce fill of lower quality down, say 600 cu.in./oz. Weight, alone, isn't a measure of warmth or accuracy of the methodology used by the manufacturer.

There is some value to the weight and warmth relationship, but less as an absolute. In the interest of quick communication, you may have oversimplified.
Posted by: skippy

Re: down sleeping bag - 12/31/09 08:45 AM

Maybe you all are convincing me to wait a bit longer to get a higher fill bag than I was contemplating. Decisions....
Posted by: hikerduane

Re: down sleeping bag - 12/31/09 10:44 AM

Do some shopping around, lots of deals, a good time killer to go shopping online.
Posted by: Jim M

Re: down sleeping bag - 12/31/09 12:22 PM

I think, as usual, that cost and weight and comfort are all part of an equation that might make certain combinations inpossible. That is, you might have to pay more than $200 for a very light weight bag that weighs less than a kilo (I'm thinking that is a reasonable maximum wt. these days). Campmor is a good place to start if you are concerned with price. I see they have a Marmot Sawtooth 15 degree bag for $180. At 2 lbs, 14 ounces (1.3 kilos)it is a bit heavier than I want to carry, especially in summer. I don't own any Marmot bags (I have 3 down bags and one 3D synthetic fill bag), but their other products I own seem to be of high quality.

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___46338
Posted by: skippy

Re: down sleeping bag - 01/01/10 07:18 AM

How much real difference do you notice in weight and warmth between the fill ratings of down? Say a 650 vs 800, etc.
Posted by: Glenn

Re: down sleeping bag - 01/01/10 09:14 AM

I think it probably depends mostly on you, and what bags you've used before. I've got a Western Mountaineering Mitylite (850 fill, 40 degree rating) that I've used in both quilt and bag mode for several years. When Thermarest came out with its Ventana quilt (650 fill, 40 degrees), I got one to try. It was really nice to sleep under, but I felt like it was heavier on me than the WM bag. It was a very minor difference, and I think I only noticed it because I had used the Mitylite first. If the Ventana had been my first down "bag" after using synthetic bags, I'd have been deliriously happy at how featherweight (pun intended) it felt to sleep under. (That was exactly how I felt when I got a TNF Blue Kazoo - probably a 600 fill - to replace a TNF Cat's Meow, the synthetic equivalent.)

If you're not used to an 850 fill bag, and not a fanatically picky gearhead (guilty, your honor) you'll probably notice no difference in use. However, the 650 fill will lead to a slightly heavier carry in your pack - the Ventana is half a pound heavier than the Mitylite; again, unless you're a total weight freak (I'm not "total" - yet), it won't make any practical difference on a long weekend.
Posted by: skippy

Re: down sleeping bag - 01/01/10 09:22 AM

Glenn made some interesting points along the lines of perspective. I come from the perspective of having very few (less than 5) nights in a down bag and that was over 10 years ago. For me almost any decent down bag would initially seem great and light after hauling around the junk I've had for several years.

Posted by: ringtail

Re: down sleeping bag - 01/01/10 10:56 AM

The higher down quality also have a superior drape. 650 feels like a bag of feathers. My wife and I slept under a down comforter in a duvet for years. After I used a Nunatak quilt for a while I replaced the down comforter with a Jacks'R'Better large quilt. Once you have slept between high thread count Egyptian cotton sheets it is hard to go back to the Wal*Mart specials.
Posted by: skippy

Re: down sleeping bag - 01/01/10 02:31 PM

Originally Posted By food
The higher down quality also have a superior drape. 650 feels like a bag of feathers. My wife and I slept under a down comforter in a duvet for years. After I used a Nunatak quilt for a while I replaced the down comforter with a Jacks'R'Better large quilt. Once you have slept between high thread count Egyptian cotton sheets it is hard to go back to the Wal*Mart specials.


Ahhh! So what you're saying is that I will be ruined for life if I get a good quality bag there is no turning back. A bag snob for life I'll become....

It reminds me of when I first got into mountain bike racing as in that once I got my first really nice bike, I wasn't goin' back to no Huffy!
Posted by: Jimshaw

Re: down sleeping bag - 01/01/10 02:37 PM

How closely a down bag fits your body does have an extreme effect on its warmth. A bag that may be warm for a big guy, may freeze a smaller guy - why? Because empty airspace means more air to warm up between you and the bag. This may seem counter intuitive, after all isn't loft the primary thing? A bag that will keep you warm at its rating will most likely feel constricting. Since I HATE tight bags, but do go out in some pretty nasty weather I needed a solution.

My winter bag is a WM super Kodiak. Its rated at -5 but I was cold in it even at +5. However I weigh 175 and it was designed for 280 pound 6 foot 6 line backer. The extra space was simply too much for me warm up.

The solution. I have two thin 1/8 inch diameter elastic cords buried inside the bag that attach near the zipper and are sewed done after adjusting the tension so they just barely pull the bag against my body. There is a band near my waist and one near my knees. I can stretch out inside this huge bag if I choose, yet the elastic pulls it against me and now I am cozy at -5. There are now three air pockets in the bag and there are no drafts because the elastic prevents it. I think I may be the only person on the planet that does this and it is such a simple fix that I don't understand why others don't do it.
Jim S
Posted by: Glenn

Re: down sleeping bag - 01/01/10 03:27 PM

Didn't Sierra Designs steal your idea and build a whole line of bags with elastic panels to allow stretch for larger persons/sprawlers? Are some of the Montbell bags similar?

Actually, it's a great idea, Jim. The best part, versus buying a built-in stretch design, is that your bag snugs in where YOU need it to snug in, not where some designer guesses most people need it to be snug.

In warmer weather, using my WM Mitylite as a quilt accomplishes something similar: I kind of tuck it around me to minimize large air spaces. Sometimes it even works. wink
Posted by: ringtail

Re: down sleeping bag - 01/02/10 02:24 PM

Exactly, the performance difference between 650 and 800 is probably less than 10%. If your good bike were stolen the first day of a week in Moab, you could still have a good time on a rental bike, but you would know the difference.
Posted by: DJ2

Re: down sleeping bag - 01/02/10 02:42 PM

This is why I don't want to know the difference between good and bad wine. That way I can mix any type of wine with gatorade and be satisfied.
Posted by: TomD

Re: down sleeping bag - 01/02/10 02:56 PM

Originally Posted By sabre11004
A temp rating on a sleeping bag is only to say that you will not die at "that" temp. In other words, a 20 degree bag will not keep you comfortable at 20 degrees. I realize that it does not make any sense but that is just the way that it is I guess...sabre11004... goodjob

P.S. The assumption that a heavier fill will offer more accurate temp ratings is correct


This statement is not true for all bags and especially not true for bags with an EN 13537 rating, depending on which part of the rating you are talking about How a bag is rated is important. If a bag has an EN 13537 rating, you can get an accurate picture of the temperature range for the bag. All bags sold in the EU have to be tested.

Here is a simple explanation of the rating system-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_13537

Here is an example of the rating of a MacPac bag-
Weight
1.5kg
Colour
Left hand zip, Right hand zip
Fill weight
800gms
Fill power
800 loft
Temp rating
Comfort -7C / Limit -14C / Extreme -35C

As you can see, there is a 28C difference between the comfort level and the extreme level. The lowest practical level is -14C for this bag, which is about +7F. MacPac bags are high end bags; I have one I bought back in the 80's. Not this model though. Mine is rated to -5C and in my experience, that is pretty accurate.

I don't know which American bags have an EN 13537 rating since most manufacturers don't sell them in the EU and don't want to spend the money to have their bags tested for that market.

The closest WM bag to the MacPac bag I could find is the Antelope, which is rated to -15C. The WM bag is about 12-14 ounces lighter overall than the MacPac (which I attribute to the bag's material and construction, not insulation), has slightly less fill in the standard version, the same in the long and the temp rating is almost identical to the EN limit level. Based on this comparison, it appears the WM ratings are very comparable to the EN standard.
http://tinyurl.com/yar983w



Posted by: Dragon

Re: down sleeping bag - 01/23/10 02:50 PM

If 80% of your outings will be done when a 30-40 degree F bag would do, why not pick up a reasonably priced used bag for that temperature range, and use your existing heavy bag (perhaps in combination with the "new" one, to handle the rarer outings in colder temps. I've bought 3 good, lightweight, used synthetic bags, all for under $50 each. The REI Down Travel bag (http://www.rei.com/product/746296) is small, lightweight (27 oz.), and runs $109 new. I loved mine when I had it.

Then later, with more experience under your belt, and recognizing what gaps you want to fill, you could shop again for a higher end, higher priced bag that would perhaps handle lower temps.

I just posted this on another thread where the guy was asking about lightweight:

Going lightweight is a journey, and an evolution. Among others, I own a Western Mountaineering Megalite, and a Nunatak Arc Alpinist. They are the "creme de la creme".

If budget is an issue, I would recommend first buying a used decent quality bag on one of the many gear forums. With the experience gained from many trips, you could later buy one that you feel is better suited to the areas and seasons you visit. Someone else will want your first bag if it is a good one, and has been taken care of.

At some point in time, you may have a collection that you choose from depending on the anticipated trip needs.

As many as I've now got, I still have desires for some others to add to my collection. I'd like a lighter (than 21 oz.) Nunatak Arc Edge (11 oz.) or Arc AT (8 oz.).

Good luck, and happy hoofing.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: down sleeping bag - 01/25/10 03:17 PM

I'm relocating to Portland, OR in the near future and am in the process of researching sleeping bags. I've been upgrading my equipment to shave as much weight as possible. I would really like to get a down bag because they are so much lighter and compressible. I don’t think I’ll have a problem keeping it dry in my pack if I wrap it in a waterproof bag of some sort. Does anyone disagree with a down in a wetter environment? Any opinions?

Also, if anyone hikes throughout Oregon, what is your sleeping system compiled of? Or any recommendations?
Posted by: aimless

Re: down sleeping bag - 01/25/10 09:01 PM

A down-filled bag works just fine for me here in Oregon. There are many tactics you can apply to keep it dry. You need to have a reliable shelter system that you know how to set up to withstand rain, so the bag won't get wet in your shelter.

When it's raining and it is in your pack, you need to have a waterproof barrier between your bag and the outside world - which can be as simple as a heavy-duty trash-compactor bag used as a pack liner and a silnylon stuff sack for your bag, and placed inside the liner (my current system).

As I just pointed out in a different venue, there is no real difference between the need to keep your down-filled bag dry and your synthetic bag dry, because they both suck at keeping you warm if they are wet.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: down sleeping bag - 01/25/10 09:06 PM

What temp rating would you suggest for a 3 season down bag in Oregon?
Posted by: aimless

Re: down sleeping bag - 01/25/10 09:32 PM

Unless you plan on snow camping, a +20 bag ought to do you fine. Even a +25, if it is honestly rated, and if you have some extra clothes to wear inside it on extra-cold nights.

However, this suggestion comes with the usual warning that different people sleep warmer or colder, they sleep on different pads, and in different shelters, and all of these factors can make a difference. (Especially the pad that insulates underneath you!)
Posted by: Jimshaw

Re: down sleeping bag - 01/25/10 11:26 PM

I was surprised to read the EN ratings of some Marmot bags, they rate the bags about 12 degrees lower for men.

I only use down bags. Besides having them in a plastic bag in your pack, perhaps even more important is keeping the inside of your tent dry. Learning to get in and out of a tent without dragging in moisture requires practice. A waterproof shell on a down bag is in my opinion a must. Pressing the warm air out of your bag as soon as you get out of it, then relofting and pressing it out again then stuffing it prevents the water vapor accumulated while sleeping from turning into dampness inside your bag. Preventing condensation inside your tent from touching the bag while you loft it and press it out is critical. Pitching your tent in the sun can create a place to dry your bag. That said, some people will have severe condensation problems in tent next to someone else whose tent is completely dry.
Jim
Posted by: OregonMouse

Re: down sleeping bag - 01/26/10 02:51 AM

Note that there are multiple ratings in the EN system, even though those in the US who claim they use it list only one. Good website.
Quote:
• The EN 13537 Upper Limit or Maximum Temperature is the highest temperature at which a ‘standard’ adult male is able to have a comfortable night’s sleep without excess sweating.
• The EN 13537 Comfort rating is based on a ‘standard’ woman having a comfortable night’s sleep.
• The EN 13537 Lower Limit is based on the lowest temperature at which as ‘standard’ adult male is deemed to be able to have a comfortable night’s sleep.
• The EN13537 Extreme rating is a survival only rating for a ‘standard’ adult woman. “In the risk range a strong sensation of cold has to be expected and there is a risk of health damage due to hypothermia.” This is an extreme survival rating only and it is not advisable for consumers to rely on this rating for general use. The best guideline temperatures for purchase decisions are the TComfort and TLimit ratings.


It appears that in the US, for the most part, the only one of these ratings used is the "Extreme" rating.

There is still a lot of subjectivity in all this, because each of us has an individual body "thermostat." However, at least with the EN 13537 ratings, there is some objective basis other than the wishful thinking of the manufacturer!

For me, I'd want the "Comfort" rating plus at least 5*F (I'm a really cold sleeper). Most men would want the "Lower Limit" or better Why would anyone would want a bag that would just barely keep you from dying from hypothermia (the "Extreme")? To quote "The King and I", "'Tis a puzzlement!"

Personally, I do fine with a 20* F (-7*C) Western Mountaineering Ultralight--assuming I have adequate insulation underneath on cold nights! I've had it on warm nights in the Cascades (after 90+F* days), and I haven't yet been too warm in the thing. It has a full-length zipper, so on warm nights I can use it as a quilt or even sleep on top. Generally in the West, certainly in the Cascades, nights get cool. I have started the night on top of the sleeping bag and ended up inside and closing most of or all of the zipper by 3 am. This was also true of the three nights I spent in Michigan's Upper Peninsula a few years ago. I suspect that if I were only camping in Ohio or southern Michigan (or points south), though, I'd want a bag that wasn't so warm!

If you are going to be backpacking into the "shoulder season" (September and October) when nights get really cold, 20* (assuming the bag is accurately rated) is the minimum. This past October I spent an 18* and a 20* F night in my WM Ultralight. I was wearing my insulating puffy jacket (Montbell UL Thermawrap), base layer, balaclava and, for a vapor barrier, my non-breathable rain jacket and pants. Unfortunately I did not have enough padding underneath. I therefore was in the odd situation of being too warm on top while my back muscles were shivering like crazy! If I'd had adequate padding underneath, I definitely wouldn't have needed my puffy jacket. With lots of insulation underneath and the puffy jacket, I'd undoubtedly have been fine at 10* F. Extra foot insulation helped, too--I had fleece sleeping socks over a dry pair of Smartwool PhDs, and my feet were resting on my nice warm dog!

I couldn't copy the diagram from the site I linked above, but if you look at it you'll find that the difference between a woman's and a man's being comfortable is 5 degrees C. At last, scientific recognition of what most married couples already know!
Posted by: Hike Smokies

Re: down sleeping bag - 01/29/10 02:53 PM

Did you try either of those two REI bags? They are right in line with what I'm looking for.

David
Posted by: skippy

Re: down sleeping bag - 02/02/10 05:27 AM

I think I plan on waiting a bit to buy one as I want to get a good one. I will be shortly starting a part time job that will pay me 2 bills a night and this will be play money.:)

Thanks for the advice and good info.

-Skippy
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: down sleeping bag - 02/24/10 11:57 AM

Would this sleeping bag do well as a 3-season bag in and around Oregon, Idaho, Washington, and Cal? I have no experience with the climate in those areas.

http://www.westernmountaineering.com/ind...mp;ContentId=17
Posted by: Zalman

Re: down sleeping bag - 02/24/10 12:13 PM

Originally Posted By hikenc9
Would this sleeping bag do well as a 3-season bag in and around Oregon, Idaho, Washington, and Cal? I have no experience with the climate in those areas.

http://www.westernmountaineering.com/ind...mp;ContentId=17


Looks like a great choice to me. You may want to bring a little extra insulation in some form for late autumn in the Idaho Rockies.
Posted by: ChrisFol

Re: down sleeping bag - 02/24/10 12:22 PM

Originally Posted By hikenc9
Would this sleeping bag do well as a 3-season bag in and around Oregon, Idaho, Washington, and Cal? I have no experience with the climate in those areas.

http://www.westernmountaineering.com/ind...mp;ContentId=17


WM's Ultralite is quite a popular bag and will be fine for 3-seasons in most of the U.S. You may get a little too warm during the middle of summer (no different than any other 20 degree bag). I also doubt that you will get too many extremely cold nights through-out spring-summer-fall that will take you anywhere near the 20 degree rating, certainly nothing that a light/mid-weight top won't fix.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: down sleeping bag - 03/10/10 01:27 PM

Originally Posted By hikenc9
Would this sleeping bag do well as a 3-season bag in and around Oregon, Idaho, Washington, and Cal? I have no experience with the climate in those areas.

http://www.westernmountaineering.com/ind...mp;ContentId=17


So here's the deal. Right now I'm not super extreme right now.. so I won't be going out in temperatures at 0 degrees. In this case I think I will be doing a lot of backpacking in these areas (including the mountains) starting in March and lasting through November. Maybe those months will be stretched a little; I have no experience with the mountains in the west. My goal is to increase my backpacking time throughout the year as much as possible with 2 bags.

Right now my budget is only two bags with only one of them being WM. I can’t afford two right now even though I would love to. My bag for colder conditions will be a WM for sure (probably 5 - 10 degree?). I have a friend that can get me a real good deal on a Marmot bag so I'll get that for the warmer temps. Not sure what degree rating.

Any suggestions on 2 bags that would help me?

Thanks
Posted by: routemaster

Re: down sleeping bag - 03/10/10 01:32 PM

I have a Zirkel and like it not sure it will handle 20
Posted by: ChrisFol

Re: down sleeping bag - 03/10/10 02:50 PM

Originally Posted By hikenc9
Originally Posted By hikenc9
Would this sleeping bag do well as a 3-season bag in and around Oregon, Idaho, Washington, and Cal? I have no experience with the climate in those areas.

http://www.westernmountaineering.com/ind...mp;ContentId=17


So here's the deal. Right now I'm not super extreme right now.. so I won't be going out in temperatures at 0 degrees. In this case I think I will be doing a lot of backpacking in these areas (including the mountains) starting in March and lasting through November. Maybe those months will be stretched a little; I have no experience with the mountains in the west. My goal is to increase my backpacking time throughout the year as much as possible with 2 bags.

Right now my budget is only two bags with only one of them being WM. I can’t afford two right now even though I would love to. My bag for colder conditions will be a WM for sure (probably 5 - 10 degree?). I have a friend that can get me a real good deal on a Marmot bag so I'll get that for the warmer temps. Not sure what degree rating.

Any suggestions on 2 bags that would help me?

Thanks


If you are looking for two bags to cover 3-seasons then I would purchase high quality +10 to +20 degree bag from Monbell, Feathered Friends, WM. This would give you a great range through the shoulder seasons when the temps could be cooler and could even extend your stay into early winter. I would then purchase a cheap (less than $100) summer, +35 to +45 degree bag for when all you really need is something to cover you.

The other way you could go is with a 3-season bag (+15 to +25) and a winter bag-- this system would let you be out all year round. In this instance I would purchase a quality winter bag and a cheap down 3-season bag like a Kelty Lightyear +20. In the colder temps you can just layer your clothing and be comfortable and in the warmer temps you should be fine since a cheap bag is usually rated generously. A winter bag is then used for the really cold conditions, thus making you a two bag system that you can use 12 months of the year.