My perfect ultralight pack, maybe?

I have always had one issue with ultralight packs. Most of them seem to always skimp too much on the suspension and then try to give you all kinds of "bells and whistles" that add more weight to the pack. Why don't they make a larger version of this, say around 50-60 liters:

http://www.rei.com/outlet/product/776902

I always thought it would be great to take an ultralight waterproof roll-top stuff sack and attach a nice sturdy harness to it. The most I might need besides the one large compartment would be two water bottle pockets on the side and maybe a small outside pocket for essentials.

I really want a pack that can handle 30-40 lbs. but still weigh 3 lbs. or less. I think this could be done if they keep the main bag simple, focusing most of the weight of the bag in the suspension.

What do you think?

I believe my home made pack meets most of your criteria. You can see it in the Make Your Own section of this website under "Daryl's two pound frame pack".

I use a non-waterproof pack but waterproof material could easily be substituted.

Please note that this pack has a frame so all of the weight is carried on the waist.

Mumblez wrote: "I always thought it would be great to take an ultralight waterproof roll-top stuff sack and attach a nice sturdy harness to it. The most I might need besides the one large compartment would be two water bottle pockets on the side and maybe a small outside pocket for essentials. I really want a pack that can handle 30-40 lbs. but still weigh 3 lbs. or less. I think this could be done if they keep the main bag simple, focusing most of the weight of the bag in the suspension. What do you think?"

I think you've just described Granite Gear's Vapor Trail and Nimbus Ozone packs, and maybe a few others in their Ultralight line. I'm sure other posters will tell you about Gossamer Gear, SMD, and other manufacturers that fit your 30-40 pound, under 3 pound criteria.

I wouldn't want to carry 30 to 40 pounds in my vapor trail

Mumblez:

You saw that other pack of Seattle Sports at the rei outlet? It's 2 lb. 6 oz., which is under your 3 lb. limit, but a whopping 6,000 cu. inch (99 l.) capacity; probably way too big. It's a watersports bag that might be a good thing if you're hiking somewhere wet like the Juan de Fuca trail.

In that vein, this Arcteryx pack (18 oz., 2185 capacity - 40 l.), designed more as a secondary daypack to be pulled out on a long trek to say, summit an off-the-trail peak, is something along the lines of what you're looking for, but a bit small and 5 times the price of that fanny/backpack watersports thing of Seattle Sports. (BTW, I wonder how much of the fannypack's volume is taken up by the stored backpack when not in use?)

Seattle Sports also makes some neat dry bags for electronics for those hiking in perrenially wet areas.

Nor would I try 40 pounds in a Vapor Trail - but the VT fits the lower end of Mumblez' requirement. The Nimbus Ozone is rated to 40 pounds, and weighs 3 pounds. I've used the Vapor Trail, and found the 30 pound rating pretty accurate; I have friends who have used the Nimbus Ozone and feel it's rated correctly, too.

I now use the Aether 60 (4 pounds, 45 pound rating) but am taking a serious look at the Exos 58: 2 pounds, 10 ounces, with a 35 pound rating. It fits Mumblez' requirement, except that it does have a lid and more bells and whistles (literally - there's a whistle built into the fastex clip on the sternum strap!) The jury is still out on it.

My REI UL 60 Cruise is an extremely good back with the bells and whistles I need. Plus I added two REI aftermarket side pockets for more accessability to gear I need during the day.

This pack is light and tough with a good suspension, including 2 tubular aluminum frame stays. I feel NO pack without built-in stays can comfortably carry a 30-35 lb. load, sleeping pad "frames" notwithstanding.

Eric

I think Backpackinglight already sells this:

http://tinyurl.com/cr699l

It's not cheap, though.

I'd tend to agree with that. I know I started to notice my Vapor Trail's presence at about 28 pounds; at 32 pounds it was distinctly uncomfortable. (I know the VT has a fairly stiff framesheet; I don't believe there's a metal stay in there, but I won't swear to it.) I don't know what they do to beef up the suspension in the Nimbus Ozone.
I ended up switching away from my Vapor Trail to my Aether 60 simply because I was finding, too often, that I needed to carry more food for longer trips and/or carry 3 or 4 quarts of water. This ran my otherwise lightweight load up toward 30 pounds pretty quickly, and the VT wasn't doing the job anymore.

I've tried a couple of those pad-as-frame packs, and the only one that seemed to work well was the Six Moon Designs Moonlite (Starlite?) - and it had stays. It was about 5 years ago, and I sent it back because the torso wouldn't adjust long enough for me. At 35 pounds, it still wasn't as comfortable as frames with full, dedicated suspensions - but that could have been the fit, not the design.

"I feel NO pack without built-in stays can comfortably carry a 30-35 lb. load, sleeping pad "frames" notwithstanding."

The Nimbus Ozone uses Granite Gear's Composite Topoflex framesheet which is just has capable as any stay/HDPE set up, but comforms to the body much better. This pack will carry up to 50lbs if needed. The waistbelt is also superior to most at this pack weight. After using a Granite Gear pack that has the Composite framesheet, the aluminum stay just seems out-dated.

The Vapor Trail uses an HDPE framesheet, but with the combination of dual density shoulder straps and waistbelts, along with how the framesheet is shaped enable this pack to handle up to 30lbs.

The ULA Catalyst would definitely fit your specifications, and weighs less than 3 lbs.

Jasonlivy; I've been watching you knock aluminum stay packs for quite awhile now. If what you say is true it would be different - but it's not true. At the same time that you exaggerate what your pack can do you have to tear down other packs. I'm tired of it. 50 lbs my foot! And, what I mean by 'your pack' is that I believe you rep them. You must be desperate to have to exxagerate so much.

This is the Nimbus Ozone. I have a Gossamer Gear that will do up to 28 lbs comfortably; the Nimbus hardly feels like it's there, and meets my prescreening qualifications for a good pack: swappable hip belt and shoulder straps, adjustable, carries the weight where it ought to be carried, and expandable to add those extra couple of pounds as needed.

I wanted to like Osprey, but they are heavy for what they are, and I always had a hip ache. The Ozone weighs 3 lbs and carries more weight comfortably than the Osprey did.

From the cottage industry pack makers, there is the whole spectrum of carried weight vs. pack weight products. From the large corporate manufacturers, they will build what their market will buy. Has the OP looked at Z Packs, Six Moon Designs, Mountain Laurel Designs, Gossamer Gear, and ULA products? As Oregon Mouse suggested, ULA has some real load carriers for desert hikers hauling water, while the others have slightly lighter packs for lighter loads.

Most of them will build to suit, especially if you just want fewer add-ons, instead of more. One could also just cut off extra pockets if the pack was purchased used at a good price.

Outdoor Research makes a product like this as well...http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___91076

Thought im not sure its weight rating...

ULA's Catalyst might fit the bill: http://www.ula-equipment.com/catalyst.htm It's 47 oz and is designed to hold 30-40 lbs. I've had my sights set on it for a while, but haven't had any excuse yet to pick one up.

Edit: Sorry, somehow missed that someone had already mentioned it.

I will say that the aluminum stay is the one thing that is holding packs back. You know what I'm tired of? I'm tired of seeing the same old technology wrapped in a different colored wrapping. Why, with all of the amazing innovations we've experience the past 30 years, do we have to make packs with aluminum stays and a plastic frame sheet? For someone in the cottage industry, it makes sense because to work with composites is extremely expensive and time consuming. However I believe that there are materials superior to aluminum that have attributes that allow the user to be far more comfortable and have a better fit than simply bending stays.

I'm not smart enough to do it, and I can appreciate those who have taken the aluminum stay to where it is now. There are a few comfortable packs that use aluminum stays, but can't we figure out a better way (ie. lighter, won't bend accidently, various flex points for body movement but maintain rigidity, doesn't allow for gaps, more square inch coverage to the back, no big lumbar pad)? Is there a better way? There is always a better way. Why can't we figure it out and bring true innovation to packs?

The reason I PERSONALLY BELIEVE (notice it's my own opinion) that Granite Gear's composite framesheet is superior is due to the 3 zones of flex. The zones allow for complete movement with the pack when bending and twisting, but also maintains the load very well. The framesheet is nearly indestructible unlike an aluminum stay (bend and twist a GGR Composite Frame sheet, even in half, and it will return to it's original shape) and can be made lighter due to the fact that in order to optimize comfort using stays you need several components. I love the fact that when you pull the load lifters, shoulder straps, and waistbelt you get an almost perfect fit (as long as the torso length is correct). Every GGR pack that uses their framesheet that I've tried on and the torso adjustment is fitted to me, I've experienced 100% of the backpanel (every square inch) conforming to my back. I have never experienced this with an aluminum stay pack. I know you pride yourself on making sure the pack fits your customers perfect which is admirable. That is how it should be. How well a pack fits is paramount to how comfortable it is. Granite Gear has done this without the total customization required using their unique composite framesheet. I highly doubt you agree with me.

I've carried a Nimbus Ozone with up to 50lbs (this is it's limit) several times over the past few years and it managed the load well every time. You can throw attitude around all you want, but BASED ON MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE and those who've I've packed with, this has been the case.

Notice I never put down any pack company. The fact you use aluminum stays means you think it works, and that's great. Who am I to tell you different? I'm sharing my experience and I would like others to think outside the box. And, yes, I am a rep (read my profile), but I'm also an avid backpacker who loves innovation.

The aluminum stay is holding packs back? Why do my 2.2 lb packs out-perform your 2.2 lb packs then? Why should I go to a frame sheet design when I outperform you, both in pack weight and performance when I use the lowly aluminum stay? There is much more to a pack than what the frame is made of anyway. I actually went down to REI today to buy GG pack, (I have done that before at various times), and decided once again it was just totally pointless - I did buy some new Garmont boots though. There is absolutely nothing for me to learn from your packs. It's tough to compete with your hype though - that's why you rep them....you are just another salesman. There were countless packs at REI that could do a better job than GG. Even REI had a better light pack. Your insistance that there can be no innovation with aluminum stays is a sad commentary on what you know. Your primary innovation is your hype. I'll give you this, you're a great hypester. In the end, you just have another plastic sheet that's pretty ordinary without the hype. According to you it's magic - but it's just another plastic sheet - especially the one in the Vapor Trail. With your logic, you better hold off on buying a new car because they all still have rubber wheels that need to be inflated with air. What's more, is that GGs fitting system is way off. What you guys call long is medium at the most. Your 'long size' for the Vapor Trail is not even long enough for my short torso and with lift straps that go to nothing solid.....like I said, no reason to buy something when it won't fit to start with. I hate to think of all the people out there trying to convince themselves they are having a good time ( this is when you unleash your army of internet shills - on your mark....get set....start typing, tell us how great the magical Vapor trail or Nozone is). They are not even that light for what they do.

Then to top it off you have to knock the cottage industry because it does not have the resources to compete with the mighty GG. If that's the best GG can do with their resources, they really should go back to the drawing board, raise their standards of comfort, and quit relying on shills like you to make mediocre products sound sensational.

If I were you, I would do the best I could to promote the product without getting into subjects you know nothing about. Any problems aluminum stay packs may have had in the past were generally not because of the aluminum stays but because of other aspects of pack design. Then there are good and bad aluminums. There is dogdo screen door aluminum and then there is Aerospace structural aluminum. Heck some pack companies did not even polish their stay ends but dipped them in vinyl instead, only to have the vinyl slip off and plug the frame tubes!

To just sterotype 'aluminum stays' like you do is a stupid thing to do and can only backfire on your company like it is right now. If I was running GG, the packs would be good enough that GG would not need one of their premier reps running around in chatrooms talking about how aluminum is passe and how aluminum is keeping the industry down. Looking at packs at REI I did not get the idea that aluminum is a threat - I'm not sure why you harp on it so much. Is Gregory the big threat to you? Again, I think if you just made packs that work better (pass this on to the Company), you would not have to be so annoying.

Wow! You sound like your passionate about aluminum stays. Great! What I hear is that you have completely given up on any real innovation so your going to bag on companies who are trying to get out of the "aluminum stay" rut.

Instead of giving up and making it sound like you have all of life's problems answered, why not make an effort to add real innovation. You can cry and nash your teeth all you want. I have lost total respect for you and your packs. I could care less how you feel about Granite Gear...

Your claim that the Vapor Trail uses a plastic HDPE frame sheet is correct. In my previous posts I wasn't even talking about the Vapor Trail! I actually was describing the NIMBUS OZONE PACK that uses the TOPOFLEX FRAME SHEET. Is that clear enough? This pack, NOT THE VAPOR TRAIL, uses a 3-D molded composite framesheet, and, no it isn't cheap 'plastic', but a composite thermoplastic which is 3 times the expense of an aerospace aluminum stay/HDPE sheet set-up. I would get my facts straight before spewing your hate.

You claim I don't know what I'm talking about, but you clearly are clueless. You live in your own little world and believe you have claim on the only pack design that really works. You truly believe that no one can hold a candle to your ideas. How ridiculous is that! Your arrogance is nauseating! You need to come up for air...

I'm not the only one screaming for true innovation. The aluminum stay has been around for 30+ years! That's all we can ever expect? There is nothing else on the horizon? I give a huge amount of credit to companies like Granite Gear who think that there's possibly a better way. By you foaming at the mouth, screaming that anyone who tries anything different are morons shows that you want to stifle innovation and out-of-the-box thinking. Shame on you!

Threat? You think Granite Gear is threatened by any pack company? You think I comment because I feel threatened? You obviously haven't read many of the posts by many of the posters concerning Granite Gear on this forum, have you? Why can't I call out the fact that innovation is what drives our passion?

I don't do this to sell packs, I assure you. My intent is not to make sales here. I enjoy expressing my opinion and that's all. I throw out ideas, just like everyone else based on my experience and knowledge base, and people can make up their own minds. I have a unique perspective in that I know intimately how Granite Gear packs are supposed to perform and why they do what they do. Again, your arrogance is seething out of your pores! Get a grip...

And finally, I was expressing an opinion, that's all. You have taken total offense to this which exposes your shallow character. I'm sorry for anyone who has to deal with you and your attitude. I've read several of your posts, and if folks don't completely agree with you, you lynch them and and put them down to build you up. Great...I'm not going to be a party of that.

This is the last time I will respond to your vitriol comments. Moderators???

How's about you guys agree to disagree? Now make nice or i'll have to spank you boys............

BF

If you read carefully I call the Ozone the Nozone by mistake. I am not quite as stupid as you would like to think. Like I said, If I was running GG instaed of ruining it, you would not need to lose your lunch in these silly chat rooms. This is really about you not having respect for others. Why is aluminum such a threat to you? I'll bet I was close when I mentioned Gregory. Obviously, I'm not the threat. I think its funny how I've got you drooling. If the GG packs are such God Loved packs why do you have to go on your aluminum diatribe? Somebody is hurting you with aluminum. I did not see many GG packs at REI, something must be wrong - must be aluminum - Ha Ha! I sure hope so. If your God Loved thermo plastic is so expensive it sure isn't paying off is it.....getting closer to the problem aren't we? GG must be hurting. Someone is hurting GG and it ain't Dan McHale.

I have nothing against innovation. I have some patents. I have a shoulder harness patent that can improve any pack on the market. I have never had anything against GG. I have watched them for years. I never knew it but I guess they are an anti-aluminum company. I remember that big pack they had with the big corrugated piece of lexan - been a long time. That was was probably before you were born. YOU hurt Granite Gear though. You are not really a good representative for them. So how does aluminum hurt the industry? How can packs with aluminum possibly slow down the mighty GG? You mistakinly perceive your market shair loss a result of inferior packs taking your market shair when the reality is, your packs don't cut it. It's always easier to blame aluminum. That's so darn funny - dude, you crack me up. Does this mean you will be looking for a job soon? God, get it together. At least have a fit system that works. Did I read at BPL you were working on a larger size so you could at least start selling packs to people that had longer than short torsos? I better hurry and post this so you can throw more dirt clods.

You are truly a rotten individual...Moderators? Are you going to allow this to continue?

I would expect you to call out for help. Mommy! People like stuff like this up to a point. Me, rotten? I don't think so. And, I'm not saying aluminum is the be all end all. I'm just doing my thing and this GG gear rep every once in awhile has to go off about how aluminum is holding the world back. I just wonder what that's all about. Are the Higher ups at GG telling you to spurn aluminum? Rather than call all moderators maybe I should talk to GG and see what's up and have them shut you up. Mommy!

I got in here because I just did not get your need to put aluminum down. It is not polite for an important rep to act like that. I knew it was not about me but things rub off. By the way, if I end up taking over Granite Gear it does not mean I will not make a framesheet type pack. I want to make that very clear. I probably won't lay anyone off - will probably reorganize a little......might get rid of you.....not sure all your yodeling is helping to sell our wildly innovative packs........

We get it already......you're the greatest...WE GIVE UP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J-DNj99mOk&feature=related

BF

I'm really torn up that you are not getting one of my packs now. You should by a Granite Gear pack then. You didn't really want aluminum anyway. Aluminum is part of the past.

Moderators.........