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#162921 - 02/28/12 11:28 AM rescue rope
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
this sort of comes from winter camping, but is a valuable summer concept. Refer to NASIDS - nonavolanche snow immersion death, where a skier or snowboarder with momentum gets buried head first under a tree in a tree well - a hole under a tree. 90% of victims cannot get them selves out and a rescue strap to help pull a buddy out - who isn't completely buried - is one partial solution. Also tree wells offer a potentially warm safe plce to spend a night in an emergency - if you can get out.

Theres been times when I got into a lot of trouble in the wilderness and a piece of rope saved my butt. I carried a 30 foot piece of 4mm rope and it did save my life fer sure. Other times I have also carried 80 feet of 5mm and it too saved my life. So why don't people carry a piece of rope instead of something less important?

If you go into a tree well on purpose use the rope to help get yourself out - tie the rope to something outside the hole and use it to pull upwards as you gently step up into the snow. Have another plan if the snow is too loose to get out - you will need your skis or snowshoes to be on.

Given a choice - I choose length over diameter but less than 4-5mm is worthless - 9mm better - like a piece of old climbing rope. So how many would add 8 ounces of rope if it meant they could do more dangerous of activity summer or winter?
Jim smile
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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#162923 - 02/28/12 11:37 AM Re: rescue rope [Re: Jimshaw]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
I always take about 50-70 feet of line with me that doubles for hanging food and lowering my pack. When considering rope strength, remember that a knot will reduce the strength of a rope up to half. I am a small person so I can get by with a thinner line than Jim can! Why would anyone purposely want to go down into a tree well?

Jim- does anyone use the "foating string" anymore in avalance condtions? Before beacons we used to carry a ball of florecscent string to release if caught in an avalanche. It was supposed to float on the surface so if burried someonen could find you. I am not sure if the method was proven ineffective or if it was just replaced by avalanche beacons. Or was this just a local quirk - I hardly hear of anyone knowing about it.

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#162925 - 02/28/12 11:51 AM Re: rescue rope [Re: wandering_daisy]
immortal.ben Offline
member

Registered: 09/10/11
Posts: 91
Loc: Arizona
I used to do so Jim, and would like to do so again.

I think Jim was talking about trying to use ones hands to climb on an extremely thin rope, not the ability of the line to bare ones weight. Of course, I may be completely off my rocker on this one.


Edited by immortal.ben (02/28/12 11:51 AM)
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#162927 - 02/28/12 11:55 AM Re: rescue rope [Re: wandering_daisy]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
Great topic. I carried a 100 foot, 3/8" Goldline in my SAR pack for years as standard equipment for years. Came in handy countless times in many ways.

In the early seventies I worked in Canyon de Chelly (heaven on earth for a rock climbing archaeologist). I soon learned to always carry rope. My minimum was 60' of 9mm, which invariable accompanied me always, even when only planning to drive up the canyon. That was in addition to whatever cordage also came along for the task at hand. Doesn't hurt to throw in some slings, and a biner or two.

I once posted on a gun form that a length of quality climbing rope would be more generally useful as EDC than a firearm. Let's just say that was a novel concept for many.....

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#162931 - 02/28/12 12:14 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: Jimshaw]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Quote:
So how many would add 8 ounces of rope if it meant they could do more dangerous of activity summer or winter?


I've brought rope on a few occasions over the past dozen years when I wanted to add a margin of safety to get to someplace I wanted to explore, but even on those occasions I wouldn't really call the situation "dangerous". I just wanted something better to hang on to while I was climbing, but never really needed it. That said, I would not have gone to those places without one, so I guess that still qualifies in a sense, but I'm sure it doesn't rise to the level of what you and W_D are talking about.

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#162932 - 02/28/12 12:20 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: oldranger]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
Originally Posted By oldranger
I once posted on a gun form that a length of quality climbing rope would be more generally useful as EDC than a firearm. Let's just say that was a novel concept for many.....


This one will have me laughing for a good while. I suppose you could have won them over pointing out the rope can be used to hang bad guys after a speedy western-justice type trial. smirk

Cheers,
_________________________
--Rick

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#162933 - 02/28/12 12:25 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: Rick_D]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
One of the leading causes, if not the leading cause, for injuries and fatalities in the backcountry is falls of various sorts. Proper use of a rope tends to prevent falls. I have been on a lot of accident scenes where moderate use of a rope for a short belay or even just a handline, would have prevented a lot of unhappiness.

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#162934 - 02/28/12 12:30 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: oldranger]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
If I'm in a situation where I have to use a rope, I'm SOL anyway. Hysson and I are careful to stay out of such situations!

I do have a 50-foot cord that I could use to raise/lower a pack if needed. It doubles as a dog tie-out and at least to give the appearance that I can hang my Ursack in areas where hanging is required (since I can't throw due to shoulder issues, I can't really hang my food, which is why I bought the Ursack in the first place).
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May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#162937 - 02/28/12 12:44 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: OregonMouse]
balzaccom Offline
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 2232
Loc: Napa, CA
I'm with OM on this one. If I am out the backcountry with my wife, we avoid situations that might require a rope. That's using the best single tool we carry with us: our judgement.

But I have rock climbed, and enjoyed it. And I can imagine doing a trip that migth combine both backcountry and rock climbing. That trip would not include my wife, by her choice.

And right now, I'd rather spend time with her than with a rope!

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#162940 - 02/28/12 12:54 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: balzaccom]
Tye Offline
member

Registered: 09/15/11
Posts: 76
Loc: Texas
nevermind


Edited by Tye (02/28/12 12:56 PM)

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#162943 - 02/28/12 01:07 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: billstephenson]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Rope needs to be used appropriately too, or it can increase instead of decreasing risk. Using it to pendulum across a raging creek or river is Bad. Trying to use it for climbing when you don't understand climbing gear or have that skill can be dangerous - like people trying to go up Half Dome when the stanchions are down, and thinking that a rope and biner are a safety measure without thinking about what happens if you free fall for 10-20 feet and the biner catchs - yank! ouch. sure, you don't hit the bottom of the dome, but hitting the end of a rope while falling isn't great either.

Any gear of this sort needs to be accompanied by skill, or at least enough research to know what NOT to use it for.
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#162948 - 02/28/12 01:18 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: Jimshaw]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
I carry maybe 10-15 feet of 4mm climbing rope. Its main purpose is extra rope for my hammock, in case the 4mm rope that I am using is either too short, or breaks. I figure that there is more uses than the one that I bring it, so it comes in the pack.
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#162949 - 02/28/12 01:53 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: Jimshaw]
Dryer Offline

Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
I've carried a 30' coil of 1/8" nylon braid for years, being replace with Amsteel Blue (2500 lbs.ave. strength)and have used it a number of times for various things. Takes up no pack room, weights almost nothing, why not?
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#162950 - 02/28/12 02:24 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: Dryer]
balzaccom Offline
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 2232
Loc: Napa, CA
Agreed. We take about 60 feet of a lightweight line that we use for many different things. But this is NOT suitable for a safety rope of any kind, and we sure don't use it for that!
_________________________
Check our our website: http://www.backpackthesierra.com/

Or just read a good mystery novel set in the Sierra; https://www.amazon.com/Danger-Falling-Rocks-Paul-Wagner/dp/0984884963

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#162951 - 02/28/12 02:40 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: lori]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Quote:
Rope needs to be used appropriately too


Absolutely. When I say climbing, it's not in the same context that Jim or W_D use the term. Not even close. I have never, ever "climbed" as they use the term.

But there have been a few spots I wanted to explore and I came back with a rope to make it easier on me. In all these cases it looked tougher (to me) than it turned out to be, and I didn't really need the rope, but I didn't regret bringing it.
_________________________
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"You want to go where?"



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#162964 - 02/28/12 05:34 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: Jimshaw]
Frankendude Offline
member

Registered: 10/04/10
Posts: 69
I take 6mm line to use as a handline. Decided I wanted some line when hiking on snow after getting on the wrong trail coming down from camp muir.


Attachments
rsz_photo_mt(31).jpg




Edited by Frankendude (02/28/12 05:40 PM)

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#162966 - 02/28/12 06:15 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: Frankendude]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
I guess I never thought of taking spectra rope - its pretty cheap on ebay and I use it for my hammock harness - and its a darn sight lighter than climbing rope BUT unless you understand climbing and falling, climbing on a non-stretch rope can be harardous to your health. Spectra does not stretch, thus the rope cannot absorb any force, instead the force of a fall will be applied to your guts and your anchor, either one of which could fail.

I realise that most backpackers won't be in territory where a rope might be of much use. But I've been climbing in a hiking area and heard someone screaming for help (a hiker in over his head). Because I had a rope I could climb above him, rap down to him and use a body belay to help him down with a bowline in the end of the rope around him, I was anchored from above, and there was adequate places for him to step getting down that it wasn't a "free rappel".

I have a piece of that fluorescent pink Mammut avo cord that trails along behind you. I guess I didn't know that no one uses it anymore, but come to think of it, I haven't seen any snowboarders trailing rope.

And yes you can get into some hairy situations with a rope! Once I rappeled out of the mouth of a cirque in Yosemite. I had 80 feet of 4mm and doubled it for a 40 foor rap where I tied off to a tree and then did another 40 feet down. A double length sling for a harness and 4 biners is about the minimum you need for free rappels. Anyway five minutes after clearing the debris area below the cirque, there was a major rockslide down the chute with refridgerator sized boulders. blush that went through the same path that I had, only faster. laugh I was 100 yards to the left of the chute when it happened. crazy

I was reffering to the diameter of the rope being sufficient to get a grip on it with your hands and if not directly ascend it, to use it for an aid that can bear weight. A going up rope needs to be large unless you have other gear.

I was just up on Mt Bachelor at the ski park skiing through fir trees and examining the snow holes. We don't have enough snow yet but its coming. A buddy of mine wants me to help him set up a semipermanent snowcamp up near the snowpark on Friday. I may do some firtree hole camping next week.

Jim smile
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#163002 - 02/29/12 09:28 AM Re: rescue rope [Re: Jimshaw]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Pics or it didn't happen Jim. smile
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#163013 - 02/29/12 01:19 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: finallyME]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Finally
If you see meaningful pics of extreme happenings, they were posed. Modern cameras are too slow and human reaction time too slow, not to mention that when yer up to yer waist in alligators, you tend to forget why you were there in the first place and the camera ain't the first thing ya think of. If you're taking pictures, you ain't that scared.

Heck is that Sasquatch sitting with Jimmy Hoffa and Jackie Onasis over there, wheres my camera?
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#163015 - 02/29/12 01:27 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: Jimshaw]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Jim's right! The last thing anyone would think of doing in an emergency situation is getting out the camera!
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#163018 - 02/29/12 01:41 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: billstephenson]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
Bringing a rope is sort of like having a 4wd. You can get into more trouble with each than without if you are not careful! If a rope is going to get you into stuff you have no buisness doing, the hardly adds safety to your trip.

Jim- I think this has been hashed over before or am I just getting old and forgetful. I swear this same topic came up within the last few years.

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#163028 - 02/29/12 03:45 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: OregonMouse]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
Quote:
Jim's right! The last thing anyone would think of doing in an emergency situation is getting out the camera!


You haven't taken a gander at YOU TUBE lately? Just the 9/11 episode had so many just unclear as to what to do, so they filmed it with their phones. However, it IS the last thing I would think of doing.

I bring rope as well. It's useful in all sorts of circumstances, but if you don't understand how to use what type of rope you have it could lead you into some real trouble. It seems to me that this thread is heading in the direction of good decision making/risk assessment. I would love to hear from a lot of you on that topic, and I bet some of the newer backpackers would too. I'm thinking that both Jim and W_D would have something to say about that with a little thought.

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#163029 - 02/29/12 03:54 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: OregonMouse]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
Some of us can't help ourselves. eek

Cheers,

Originally Posted By OregonMouse
Jim's right! The last thing anyone would think of doing in an emergency situation is getting out the camera!
_________________________
--Rick

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#163032 - 02/29/12 04:12 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: OregonMouse]
Dryer Offline

Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
Quote:
Jim's right! The last thing anyone would think of doing in an emergency situation is getting out the camera!


"Yo, hold my beer and get this on video." grin

_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#163044 - 02/29/12 08:24 PM Re: rescue rope [Re: skcreidc]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
One of our victims was a middle school teacher who attempted to do a single strand rappel of a 500 foot cliff with a 250 foot rope. When he reached the end of his rope (literally) he instructed his students not to call SAR but to go back to town and get some more rope! Some one called us anyway and we were able to get the guy down (our rope was 600 feet long).

Some very good points have been made about possible negatives in employing a rope, but that is true of nearly all gear - tents, stoves, you name it. The most critical aspect of a FAK is the training and knowledge of the person employing it, for instance. Just gear, blindly acquired, is of surprisingly little value, while the trained and aware person can accomplish a lot with very little.

A rope, properly employed, can open up a lot of country.

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