My recent trip (see trip reports) was in an area heavily used by horses and even a grazing allotment. The trails were really pounded to dust. The several inches of fine powder of dirt and horse poop comibned played havoc with my allergies! Nevertheless, I do think horsemen have a right to have available wilderness areas too. I really do not know what is the appropriate level of use, but it seemed to me that it was exceeded. Commercial packers were making 2-3 trips a day on one trail.

I knew that some of the trails I would be on are used by horses, so it was not a surprise to me. Walking on those trails was not pleasent but I knew what I was getting into. I pity the backpackers who encounter this without prior knowledge. After the first day I had plenty of options to go off-trail or use trails less used by horses.

Probably the larger issue of damage was to water quality. Camps were loaded with horse manure and the runoff obviously overloaded the lakes and streams with nitrate leading to excessive algae. It seemed a bit rediculous as I dug my little 6" hole for my tiny little turd!

So I have mixed feelings. I am not against horsemen per se, but if resource protection is important, something is not right here.

How do you all feel?

How did it compare to trails in the Wind Rivers? It seemed as though on the Fremont Trail (the section from Big Sandy Opening to Marms Lake) there were more horses than people. Slightly less horse traffic on the Hailey Pass and Shadow Lake trails (Shadow Lake was as far as I got)--a few more people than horses, but still a lot of horses. Of course Wyoming is cowboy country. The trails were built by horsemen for horsemen; and banning horses is probably unthinkable. There are a lot of restrictions on horses, which are followed to the letter by the outfitters (whose livelihood is at stake). I noticed, for example, that camps or even where horses were tied on day trips were far from trails, from water sources and from where hikers would be apt to camp. The ones I've noticed breaking the rules (both in the Winds and out here) were individual horse owners. Of course there are hikers who don't follow the rules, too.

I'm a bit torn on this subject. I love horses. I grew up horsepacking, but back in those days there was hardly anyone else out in the wilderness. I don't remember seeing more than a handful of hikers during 11 years of horsepacking in the northern Colorado Rockies. Maybe 2-3 times in a 6-8 weeks' trip we'd run into an outfitter guiding a group on horseback, or a sheepherder with his flock. Compare that to the usage today! It is definitely true that a 1200 pound horse with iron shoes is going to tear up the trails far more than the equivalent weight of backpackers. And with the amount of use today on popular trails, something's gotta give.

I, too, was wondering why I went to such lengths to bury my and my dog's poop with all that horse poop lying around. However, I find horse poop far less obnoxious that that of dog. Within a day or two, horse poop has dried up, started to disintegrate and has lost its odor. It takes a lot longer for dogs and people.

On the other hand, at least here in the Pacific Northwest, the Backcountry Horsemen group does a considerable amount of volunteer trail maintenance. Because they have pack horses to carry their tools, they can get much farther into the wilderness than groups on foot can manage. With Forest Service budgets cut to the bone and beyond, a lot of trails would be lost if it weren't for the horse folks.

The worst situation, of course, is encountering the leavings of the cow. I can't understand why other ruminants (deer, elk, sheep, goats) leave relatively unobtrusive poop behind, while the ubiquitous "cow pie" has to be jumped over (using caution not to land in another one!), sticks to everything (boots or worse) like glue, and remains liquid inside for weeks. Part of my Colorado trip was in a cattle grazing area, and the first and last days were horrible!

I also grew up around horses so the poop just does not bother me at all, and I have never been in a place where the packers or individual riders had any impact on my experience. They have always been well off the trail and away from water and campsites. However, I hate what they do to trails. What was originally a 12-14inch step quickly becomes an 18-20 inch one. I do not know if there is much we can do about other than volunteer for a trail crew though. They have just as much right to be there as we do, and I think that they actually add value to our experience. More trails, re-supplies, emergency evacuations, and the like are all positives that they bring to the table. I just wish they would learn to replace their divets.

Ken

Several trails in IL and IN get a lot of funding by equestrians. This is probably true elsewhere. So I feel I have no right to complain since I spend way less than them on trail maintenance, fees, etc.,

But I still wonder, isn’t it a courtesy to move your animal’s doo off the trail?

-Barry

Someone riding a horse is not gonna stop and use a pooper scooper. Most horses do their business while on the move and don't look back. Even the local trail here in my area (I use it for day hikes) has bikes, horses and the trails are a mess. There are walking specific trails but no-one heeds the signs. There are trail markers that state what each trail use is allowed but bikes use walker/hiker trails anyway with no recourse. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

To me that's the problem. Poop. No matter what rear end it fell out of, it shouldn't be near a water source that could be consummed by humans. Animals will drink and poop at the same time. Maybe that's what sets us apart from animals. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think the actual use is about the same however the horse use in the Sierra is more concentrated in specific areas and in the Wind Rivers, it seems to be evenly spread out. The impact in the Sierra seems worse because it is so dry in the summer. In the Wind Rivers, you get lots of afternoon storms so dust is much less a problem. Also, the warmer Sierra climate exasperates the algae problems in lakes. The hiking/horse riding season in the Winds is also shorter.

One trend I saw in the Wind Rivers is to use goats and llamas and I have not seen this in the Sierra. I think this may be regulatory- in the Sierra a goat or llama is counted as "stock" in the same manner as a horse and are more regulated.

This summer the drought has caused the water levels in lakes to be very low and nearly ALL streams in northern Yosemite are nothing but a few stagnant puddles. This makes for very warm water and lots of dust.

I really think one problem is too many horses using the same trail. There are tons of trails in Emigrant Wilderness and if you were to distribute the use more, there would be less problems.

I also think a lot of regulations are being ignored. I never see a wilderness ranger or game warden. I think our regulatory agencies are really being choked for funds. I think the "100 feet from water" rule used for backpackers needs to be extended a much farther distance for horses.

Commercial packers streaming in and out of the Sierra wildernesses and national parks have far too great an impact for whatever benefit they're providing. The absolutely destroy trails, then go on and create braided parallel trails, and so forth.

A typical scenerio I see is they'll haul in half a dozen clients and stuff--lots and lots of stuff--return to home base, then go back in to fetch them a few days later. That means four trips on the trails by at least twenty head so six people can spend a week or so in the backcountry.

I simply don't see why a small group of "elitists" should be allowed to have that much of an impact. It would take hundreds of backpackers to cause an equivalent impact. Also, the packers are quite uneven in their own practices, and I've seen some appalling impacts from their behaviors. Giving the benefit of a doubt, I'll say this is the exception and not the rule, but it doesn't take but a handful to have a real impact in the rather fragile high country.

Now, ask me what I really think. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

FWIW I'm not much bothered by endurance riders and other horse folks who're transporting themselves, or pack animal alternatives like llamas and goats, so long as they're following ethical low-impact practices.

Smokies... A lot of folks use "Hiker Only" trails in the Smokies. The trail can be miserable with mud and ankle deep mire in places when horses are alowed.

In the Smokies they (horsemen) seem to be able to carry in more than they can carry out. The horses do a lot of damage to the trails, bu they can't help that.

I agree, Rick.

Massive impact for a group that's less than 10% of the users of our trails here in the Sierra Nevada (maybe it's a larger percentage elsewhere - but I'm betting it's still a minority).

Campsites and water sources are regularly fouled, and hiking through miles of horse dung on the more heavily used trails is mightily unpleasant.

It would be nice if they could use waste sacks like the horses in New York are required to wear, with the packers responsible for emptying them out in sites where they will have less wide-ranging impact. The horses will still pee every time they come to a water crossing, but maybe we could contain the solid waste...

Not sure there's an easy answer here. The packers sure fight vehemently for their ability to continue to make a living off of this, and there are places where pack mules and horses are the only cost-effective way to get supplies in to rangers and trail crews (as well as the High Sierra camps, though those are commercial ventures).

Been on both sides, I do not like horses on backpacking trails, period. I would much rather the horse crowd be required to make separate trails to use. Also require those making the backcountry rules and regs', be required to WALK the very trails they legislate on! If they personally had to enduure some of the afore-mentioned trail conditions/environs, they might think before allowing multi use. Water is so vital to humans in the wild, that horse operations should be banned from bringing stock within 250ft. Yes, wildlife is doing it's business there , but not as frequently as a pack camp's horses.

There are exceptions, but the above posts in this thread really point out the problems. With the use of heli's today I doubt a horse or mule train is needed to get anyone anything in the bkcountry.

I don't like horses on backpacking trails either. I tolerate them. but it does make for
some places that are dual use that are gorgeous (such as the Tonquin valley in Jasper)
that I just don't go because I don't wanna deal with the horse poop and flies in the summer.

Not only do I not like stock of any kind on the trail, I think its inappropriate to allow the wilderness to be used for profit by private business.

Hi Daisy ET all,

I think the horse problem is one of perception and funding. The national park service will blast trails to make them usable for horses. In my own humble opinion its because congressmen like to ride horses and appropriate money to create horse trails, but not money for backpacking trails.

Should wilderness be limited to people physically capable of going there on their own? [vs on horseback by commercial operations] And if so, then aren't the wilderness areas being reserved for the young and unemployed and those with the time to go there? Is it in the greater interest of the public to keep wilderness areas off limits to the average American?

I love horses. I think they are stupid. I hate horse berries on the trail, I hike cross country mostly. BUT I think they have as much right to be there as anyone, but some of the very worst offenders of littering the wilderness are horse packers who think its cute to leave all of the extra food, glass jars etc forthe hippy backpackers, so there will be a camp covered with horse droppings and garbage.

I think horses are much less threat to hikers than dogs. I love my dog, which is why I leave her at home when I backpack. Why expose the dog to the risks for my own selfish need for a companion, or worse - those who take their dogs for protection are actually putting their dog at risk to cover their own stupidity.

just my own $.02 worth.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I agree with you but I fear it is a lost cause.

In addition to the horse packers, there are the self-discovery/wilderness education operations like NOLS and Outward Bound, the "hoods in the woods" boot camp programs, the goat and llama packers, mountaineering guide services, float trips, guided hunting trips and, at least in the Southwest, cattle ranchers who have their grazing rights grandfathered into many SW wilderness areas. I comfort myself with the thought that most of these businesses are just as interested in keeping our wild areas as wilderness as I am. I just wish more of them would clean up their own messes.

I think that a lot of the packers in the Sierra do a pretty good job of cleanup; the biggest garbage dump I have come across was left by an Outward Bound group in the North Cascades. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

My worst "garbage dumps" have actually been those left by *ATV* campers, in my experience they're the worst offenders when they're allowed into an area. The horse packers here don't tend to compare, although they can be bad (cans left around, etc.)

But let's not confuse the horse with the idiot sitting on it. Most of the time I have a real problem with sharing the world with ATV's and horses it has a lot less to do with the ATV or Horse per say as opposed to the ignorant clod sitting on top of it. but hey, my worst on trail experience was with a mountain biker. People are still the biggest problem. All of the above (ATV, horses, bikes) can cause very little damage and be very tolerable when used responsibly. When they aren't they're awful..

The Fifth Law of Thermodynamics (relating to the conservation of energy) states:
Whosoever expends the least energy to arrive at a pristine destination is the most likely to pollute it.

I don't have a problem with horses here in the Ozarks. There are shared trails and dedicated hiking trails and no outfitters at all. We just don't have that kind of tourism here, so the only horses are privately owned and operated. The people that own and use their trail horses here are among the best of those you'd get to meet on a trail. You'd be hard pressed to find any trash they've left behind.

Personally, I prefer my little donkeys to horses, llamas, goats, or dogs. They're less than 36 inches at the shoulder, pack 50 lbs of gear, love people, follow you anywhere, and don't go schizo on you. They don't have much of an impact on the trail either, and I still get to walk.

The really old timers knew of these benefits the little burros provided when on the trail. Too bad they've been mostly forgotten here. If your outfitters switched to using them you all would benefit.

Bill

Touché!

Hope you don't mind if I use that one :-)

Ditto, plus, under-paying cattle ranch and oil 'leases' on Taxpayer owned BLM lands <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Since when is organic pollution not 'pollution' <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> At the prices in the grocery stores the stock raised on BLM lands should be free for the taking! Earthling for Prez <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Oh, Earthling, I would never wish the Presidency on you. You're in enough pain already!

Yeah, I don't want that job, it's a figurehead position for the greedy to manipulate the masses. Light, noise, litter, all the pollutions that are incroaching upon wilderness really piss me off <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> That's why if I find a nice place I seldom tell anyone about it, especially not on the 'net, for fear of it being ruined or overrun <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I've had 2 horse experiences I will share.


Hiking in the Mt. Rogers, Grayson Highlands area. Horse poop up to the knees in very over used trails. Made the mistake of getting on a yellow horse trail for a bit, and it was beyond disgusting. So a bad taste of "horses"



Then I hike the PCT, expecting lots of horses. I never saw many the whole trip. When I did it was usually a large group together, but almost always friendly and courties to the hiker.


The equestrian clubs do a lot of maintenance along the PCT. Most the areas where the trail was well maintained was because of the horse folks.
Sure, i stepped over and on some poop along my hike. Never was it bad or too big of an issue.

Finding hoof prints at water sources doesnt make you feel good. One time I remember walking through a marshy area, to get upstream of the evident horse prints. Some yee-ha or redneck, whatever you call them in your part of the world had taken their horse a long way upstream to let it drink... (



All in all, i don't mind the horses if they are not in an over used area. I even met a llama on the PCT, and although I found it silly to make that poor animal carry 50X more weight then they needed for a weekend hike, that also was not a bother.



One question though, If i have to bury my poop and not pee near water sources etc. Why don't these equestrians clean up after themselves. Put those bags on that toss it off to the side of the trail at least *shrug*


I personally enjoy horses more then bicycles and crazy motocross nuts charging at you with no intent on slowing down. ( some huge wrong use issues along the PCT in a few areas)