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#173298 - 12/27/12 11:46 AM Topographical Maps - why are they important?
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
I'm looking for about 100 words on why carrying a topographical map is important. Everytime I try to say it, I come across like a drill sergeant.

Thanks.
_________________________
http://48statehike.blogspot.com/

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#173300 - 12/27/12 12:10 PM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: Gershon]
monkeykoder Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/04/12
Posts: 7
Originally Posted By Gershon
I'm looking for about 100 words on why carrying a topographical map is important. Everytime I try to say it, I come across like a drill sergeant.

Thanks.


Topographical maps replace an awareness of our surroundings that most people seem to be lacking and might warn of hidden dangers to those of us that can't seem to slow down to back country speeds. Basically if you get lost it tells you what to look for to find your way back to your car.

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#173302 - 12/27/12 12:27 PM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: Gershon]
BrianLe Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Washington State, King County
The real world isn't a flat, 2-dimensional experience. When you learn and gain experience at reading a topographic map, you greatly increase your ability to relate where you are on the ground to a specific point on the map. This better 3-dimensional understanding of your surroundings helps you to better plan routes and to appreciate your surroundings. To identify specific terrain features far and near.
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Brian Lewis
http://postholer.com/brianle

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#173303 - 12/27/12 12:31 PM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: Gershon]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Wow, that is kind of tough....

We, here, all know that a topo map is no good at all unless you know how to read it. But let's assume you do know how to read one. Here's 48 words describing why it is important to carry one:

"If you know where you are, you are not lost.

A topo map provides the means to quickly locate your position on the map by orienting the map and locating two or more topographic features displayed on the map and referencing those features with line of sight.
"

You might add these 20 words:

"A GPS will fail for many reasons, so it's not a replacement, it's an enhancement that cannot be relied upon."

That's certainly not perfect, but it's a something to start working with.


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"You want to go where?"



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#173304 - 12/27/12 12:35 PM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: BrianLe]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
I like BrianLe's better.
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"You want to go where?"



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#173311 - 12/27/12 03:34 PM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: billstephenson]
rockchucker22 Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
No more to add other than I love topos, and spend hours every week pouring over them. I only photo copy the areas I'm hiking and spray with clear sealant like deft. You really shouldn't hike without at least some map skills. Simple and can save your life.
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The wind wont howl if the wind don't break.

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#173312 - 12/27/12 03:45 PM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: rockchucker22]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
This is part 2.

I usually hike solo or with my son. The first time my son saw a topo map, he understood them without any explanation. So I don't have any idea how well others understand them.

If you have experience hiking with others, do they use a map? If so, do they know how to establish their location with a map?

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http://48statehike.blogspot.com/

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#173414 - 01/02/13 12:30 PM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: Gershon]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
I am constantly trying to teach scouts how to read maps. Some pick it up real fast, others......not so fast.
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I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#173415 - 01/02/13 03:21 PM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: finallyME]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
I remember being taught to read maps, and how it came pretty easy to me and how others struggled with it.

I think it's like a lot of things, singing for example, as much a talent as it is a skill.

I can't sing. No amount of teaching effort will help me to sing great. Same with dancing. Doesn't mean I don't, but if I were as bad at reading a map I'd get lost a lot.
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"You want to go where?"



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#173420 - 01/02/13 06:15 PM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: billstephenson]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
Exactly the same as me Bill... A topo I could always read, but singing makes the cats run away and I have no rhythm to dance. Heck I can't even keep a beat tapping my foot to a song.
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#173462 - 01/03/13 09:34 PM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: DTape]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
A GPS does not replace the map; it obtains lat/long information from satallites, and overlays that dot on a digital topographical map. Lat/long without a graphic representation is useless. The paper map is the GPS base map: a backup that cannot go dead. Topo map and GPS are synergenic. To fully use either you must learn to interpret contour lines to relate the 2D image (digital OR paper map) to the 3D scene in front of you.

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#173469 - 01/04/13 01:37 AM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: Gershon]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
I started reading highway maps when I was 3. I can't remember ever not understanding the how's or why's of a map, whether highway or topo (or nautical charts for that matter). Two summers ago my then 10 year old son and I took an extensive road trip from NC to VT and back again. At one point I put a map in his hands and asked him to help me navigate. He had no clue and no interest in learning. It broke my heart. I love maps. I've always wanted to wallpaper a room in topos or charts.

MNS
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#173485 - 01/04/13 01:56 PM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: Gershon]
JPete Offline
member

Registered: 05/28/09
Posts: 304
Loc: Eastern Ontario
This thread caught my eye, and I've pondered what to say. I suspect none of us will beat BrianLe. It's one of those things that's so obvious it almost defies words.

Sometime around 1947 I discovered that for a cost I could afford, and by mail, I could get an index map from the USGS and then buy the quads for my area. It was like the whole world opened up.

I do not recall having even minutes of challenge trying to read them (other than looking up some symbols). They seemed self-explanatory.

The area where I lived (the Ozarks) was almost entirely forested at that time. Suddenly, I could tell where the mountains were, and even how high. Wow. The quads even showed where the streams ran, and where the springs were. Today I can't imagine being without that information in the woods. I've used "hiking maps" without that information and felt lost, even with the map in hand.

best, jcp


Edited by JPete (01/04/13 01:57 PM)

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#173570 - 01/06/13 11:44 AM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: JPete]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
No doubt this can be a tough one to get across. Why a topographic map? The batteries never die, and the only signal you need is the one between the eyes and the brain (no scarcasm intended). I've noticed that many people using GPS have a certain high sense of security when their location shows up on the screen. There's no questioning that info; no making sense of it in terms of the local topography; its just excepted and they move on.

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#173572 - 01/06/13 01:42 PM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: skcreidc]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
Stuff happens. Compasses break and vanish mysteriously. GPSs get sent down mountainsides (don't ask). Maps get ripped out of hands by the wind, or escape from pockets, or turn into pulp.

Redundancy is the best rule, provided one's not super-familiar with the area they're hiking.

As to having a feel for maps--I've learned in training that one needs to consider the visual, the auditory and the kinesthetic learners when preparing a training plan. Your auditories, for example, might have a hard time translating that two-dimensional paper to the three-dimensional world.

Cheers,
_________________________
--Rick

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#173614 - 01/08/13 10:19 AM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: DTape]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
I have been pondering this question for awhile and decided to start small. Trail intersections are a great opportunity to go off course. There is one near here where the sign that was made in the 30's fell down and it is pointed the wrong direction. To make matters worse, the trail names changed. The Squirrel Creek trail on the map is not the same one on the sign. To complicate matters further, there is another trail not on the map that heads north from the intersection.

Without a topographical map and a compass at this intersection, it would be very difficult to choose the right trail.

Once past the intersection, it helps to have a compass and the map to make sure the trail you are on is going the right direction.
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http://48statehike.blogspot.com/

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#173616 - 01/08/13 10:54 AM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: skcreidc]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By skcreidc
No doubt this can be a tough one to get across. Why a topographic map? The batteries never die, and the only signal you need is the one between the eyes and the brain (no scarcasm intended). I've noticed that many people using GPS have a certain high sense of security when their location shows up on the screen. There's no questioning that info; no making sense of it in terms of the local topography; its just excepted and they move on.


And sometimes, they are subsequently short hauled by a helicopter off a ledge high on a cliff.

Always reserve a bit of doubt and keep that awareness of the terrain in front of you, and if you are in a white out, hunker down already.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#173620 - 01/08/13 12:08 PM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: lori]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
Yesterday, my GPS showed me over 600 yards from my car when I was standing next to it. There was no user error. I marked a waypoint at my car before I left. I erased all the other waypoints before doing it.

The topographical map was useless because I left it home for a compass only navigation exercise bushwhacking in a safe wooded area.

What got me back to the car was compass only navigation.

Here is where I come across badly. In my opinion, a topographical map is virtually useless without a compass and the skills to use it. If you don't believe me, bring the wrong map someday for a similar trail and see how easily people will locate themselves on it.

In my opinion, a good way to learn to use a topographical map and compass is to stop once every 20 minutes and define your location 7 different ways. (NOLS recommends 5, but they miss the two easiest ones.) The first time, it may take 20 minutes at each stop. With practice, you can do it without stopping.

In my opinion, learning to use a topographical map sitting in front of a computer is impossible. It has to be done in the field either with a teacher, or with an individual taking things very slowly. 40 foot contour intervals can hide a lot of impassible terrain.

People who do not have excellent compass and map skills should stay close to well marked trails at all times. This may be controversial. Most of the reports I read of people getting lost in Colorado are above the treeline where it should be easy to navigate. Most often, they leave a friend behind while they climb "a short distance" to the summit of a mountain. Often one of them doesn't make it home.

I used a lot of disclaimers because I often approach things in a different way than others.

That's my 2 Trillion dollar coin's worth.




_________________________
http://48statehike.blogspot.com/

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#173623 - 01/08/13 12:43 PM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: Gershon]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
When I was a geology grad student, I TA'd beginning and advanced field (mapping) geology. For some people like myself, the concept of placing rock contacts on a topographic map was easy. But others, it was pure agony and in fact beginning field was considered a "weeder" class or one that weeds people out of the geology department. I had a hard time trying to teach some people how to read a map and place contacts on it.

Reading a topo map takes practice in the field. There is no other way to do it other than the direct application of "where are you on the map?". And in a lot of cases, you should be able to do this even without a compass. I very rarely use my compass in mountainous terrain; its all map reading. You know your starting point and follow your progress on the map going in and out as you move...piece of cake with some practice. In flat terrain you have to have a compass for any real accuracy. My take on it for what it's worth.

Chris


Edited by skcreidc (01/08/13 12:44 PM)

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#173626 - 01/08/13 01:28 PM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: Gershon]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Quote:
In my opinion, a topographical map is virtually useless without a compass and the skills to use it. If you don't believe me, bring the wrong map someday for a similar trail and see how easily people will locate themselves on it.


That's pretty funny. I am sure it wouldn't take me too long to figure that out, but I can think of situations where I might venture a guess.

A topo map can be used without a compass. I've been on a ridge and oriented the map with peaks on a distant ridge, and I've been in creek bottoms and lined it up with bends in the creek. Either way I can locate my position fairly accurately with no compass needed, providing I know my starting point.

I know a lot of people that ramble off trail with no map or compass or gps. They navigate by memorizing terrain and landmarks. Thats how I started bushwhacking. Now I generally keep my GPS on, but I only look at it occasionally. I'm more interested in reviewing the statistical data and my track on a map when I get back.

I've had 3 out of 4 Garmin GPSs die for no apparent reason. The last one was only 18 months old. This has convinced me beyond any doubt not to trust them.

600 yards is a lot for GPS to be off. That can happen if you've just turned them on and take a reading as soon as it offers one, or if you've had it buried in your pack where it wasn't getting a signal. In most of those cases you just need to wait a few minutes while it works on listening to the satellites.

I fired up my gps once and it showed me to be someplace in China. That had me confused for a few moments. I restarted it and it made better sense when it calculated my position that time.
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"You want to go where?"



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#173632 - 01/08/13 02:49 PM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: billstephenson]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
Bill,

You may have discovered the reason for the error. Maybe I marked the waypoint too soon after turning the GPS on. I did wait for the satellites to lock though.

Chris and Bill,

I do agree a person can navigate with topographical maps alone. I also feel giving away the compass is taking away a valuable tool. I think a GPS is useless for a person that ventures off trails.

I think three people expressed my feelings about topo maps. They are fun.

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#173640 - 01/08/13 03:58 PM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: Gershon]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
When I take my kid hiking, I'll take her off-trail a few times and have her tell me which way the trail is. I'm trying to help her gain an awareness of the world greater than ten feet beyond the trail and enhance her confidence. She has a whistle, compass and flashlight on a lanyard and we practice hide-and-seek using whistles. I've not introduced her to maps or gps, yet.

The California hiking experience is different from the western Washington mountains I hiked as a kid. Up there you can hike for days without gaining an unobstructed view to triangulate off, and the forest undergrowth can be so dense you lose the trail in shockingly little distance. Turn-by-turn navigation with map and compass was the way to travel and heaven help you if there was a significant trail rerouting not on the map or if the trail had disappeared from neglect.

In the Sierra, XC through forest is much more plausable and of course, we have the opportunity for endless days of alpine travel. I don't find myself consulting the map on the go, usually at the day's start and on breaks. My programmed GPS routes and waypoints are printed on the map for a ready cross-reference. Hard to overstate how much I love this system.

Originally Posted By Gershon

Here is where I come across badly. In my opinion, a topographical map is virtually useless without a compass and the skills to use it. If you don't believe me, bring the wrong map someday for a similar trail and see how easily people will locate themselves on it.



Cheers,
_________________________
--Rick

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#173710 - 01/10/13 10:42 AM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: skcreidc]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By skcreidc


Reading a topo map takes practice in the field. There is no other way to do it other than the direct application of "where are you on the map?". And in a lot of cases, you should be able to do this even without a compass. I very rarely use my compass in mountainous terrain; its all map reading. You know your starting point and follow your progress on the map going in and out as you move...piece of cake with some practice. In flat terrain you have to have a compass for any real accuracy. My take on it for what it's worth.

Chris


Amen brother. smile With my scouts, I actually start them out with a neighborhood map with streets and house plots. I print off the google neighborhood map and then put a dot on a property. Then I tell them to go find that house and write down the address. Some can do it the first time, but with others, it takes practice. Then, on campouts, we use the topo maps and I try and help them see where they are on the map. The same thing usually occurs. Some get it just by looking, with others, it is like teaching them calculus.
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I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#173804 - 01/13/13 02:08 PM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: finallyME]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Some people cannot read maps at all, and to them a topo map is worthless. Someplaces there is only level terrain and topology will not help you navigate. To many people who operate in terrain with easily identifiable landmarks, a topo is just extra weight, something to start a fire with. Unless you can see the sun to orient a topo, its pretty much worthless without a compass. Also trails change and making assumptions about trails [possibly based on false or outdated information on the topo] and where they go, just might get you into more trouble than not having that bad information. When was that topo updated?

I carry a printout of a satelite photo from google Earth of the area I am going into. The photo helps find my position better than a map. And finally, even if you are in mountainous country, the angle from which you are looking can make you think you are triangulating off something that you are not - you may think the shoulder of a mountain is the peak of another.

As much as people enjoy putting down GPS, a GPS, map and compass is about the only reliable way to actually locate yourself when completely lost and then find your way home. Sometimes I carry a small backup compass, like on my jacket zipper pull, to back up the compass in my GPS.

Perhaps putting it this way will help. Ever been in a corn maze? Ifyou had a map and compass, how would that help you? How would you use that map and compass. This may sound silly as a comparison, but maybe you should go sit on a mountain with your compass and map and see if you CAN triangulate a position. I failed to do it, even though I knew exactly where I was, I could not draw crossed lines to show my position. And by the way, why does the compass seem to turn relative to the north? Perhaps understanding declination is a critical skill to topo navigation.

My bottom line is :A map and compass are almost worthless to someone untrained, yet we tell everyone they need one even if it has no value them - the drill instructor atitude. Lets admit that maybe 5% of campers know what declination is and have a compass and map and a vague idea of how to use it. The other 95% are left with no help at all from the traditional map and compass atitude. My GPS has saved my butt atleast 3 times and helps me find the waypoint where I left my truck, using the topo is what got me lost in the first place. A topo has no more value to most people than an axe.

People should LOOK where they are going and then LOOK for landmarks when they return - Danial Boone didn't have no map ner compass, and he were a might befuddled oncet, but never lost...

Jim grin
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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#173808 - 01/13/13 02:43 PM Re: Topographical Maps - why are they important? [Re: Jimshaw]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
Jim- be careful with air photos or satallite photos. Some are NOT correctly georeferenced and have spatial distortion. Google maps are pretty tight-lipped on the details of the image acqusition date and georeferencing. Google map overlays of roads and trails are just as prone to error as a UGSS topo map. Regardless of map or image - you NEED to know what datum it is using, date of data aquisition, level of horizontal and vertical accuracy. Overlay data is particularly prone to error because the overlay may have small distortions (mis-matches to the base map)that can create large errors over long distances.

I have used a map without compass for more than 20 years and do not get lost. I did use a compass learning how to read a map and for the first 25 years of backpacking. I would take a compass if I were in a region of thick forests or extensive flat country (I usually do not backpack in this kind of environment). For beginners a compass is definitely useful. But after many years with a compass I found myself looking at it less and less until it occurred to me I had not pulled it out of my pack in five years!

But, you really need to pay attention and read the map often. I carry the map in a pocket or even in my hand and look at it as often as every few minutes. "Reading" a map is really about getting a feel of the land. The map is an aid. You have to create a 3-d picture in your mind. Reading a topo map forces you to create that mind's picture; looking at an arrow on a GPS does not. A lot of topographical subtleties do not show up on a topo map (or GPS).

I am more of a "visual-pictorial" map reader than "mathamatical" map reader. The contours just seem to pop out in my mind and I really do not even feel I am looking at lines. I know of people (my husband for example) who never see contours this way - to him thay have always remaind confusing squiggly lines.

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