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#164238 - 03/20/12 11:17 PM Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . .
Keith Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 1667
Loc: Michigan's Upper Peninsula
OK, black bears live here in the central U.P. I have had one in our garden in our town of 10K plus and another that ran through our yard. I have seen bear poop regularly on trails I have hiked. But I am not aware of any bear/human encounters here that have caused human injuries or deaths. When I go camping I don't carry any kind of deterrent but do practice camp cleanliness and hang food. Also, I don't cook bacon.

OTOH, I have a friend that has camped with his sons and had two loaded armaments in the tent -- IIRC, a shotgun and a rifle, but maybe a pistol and a rifle. Anyway . . .

What is really appropriate. Am I being too nonchalant about a potentially deadly matter? Should I really be carrying weapons? Spray? Anything?

If I were in grizz country, I'd definitely have canister and spray. But here??

I'd be glad for your input.

_________________________
Human Resources Memo: Floggings will continue until morale improves.

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#164247 - 03/21/12 02:56 AM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: Keith]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
I wouldn't do anything different that what you're already doing. Black bear attacks are extremely rare, while gun accidents are dang common.

Proper food storage and using your noodle work for good ursine relations in most places.

Cheers,
_________________________
--Rick

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#164251 - 03/21/12 09:23 AM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: Keith]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
If I were at all worried about it, I would just bring bear spray. That is about 10 oz extra weight. But it sounds like it would be worth it.

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#164254 - 03/21/12 10:15 AM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: skcreidc]
awesomeame Offline
member

Registered: 03/06/12
Posts: 18
I'm in blackbear country too...everyone I know (all of 2 ppl) that have had encounters with bears just made lots of noise and that scared them off...banging pots together, that kind of thing. I'm just planning on carrying the world's loudest whistle

http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/HikingCamp...ety-whistle.jsp

Handy if you get separated from the group, too

Matt


Edited by awesomeame (03/21/12 10:16 AM)

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#164259 - 03/21/12 11:15 AM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: Keith]
Blue_Ridge_Ninja Offline
member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 98
Loc: North Georgia
Black bear territory here also. I've only ever seen one. It was about 70 yards away, smallish - either a juvenile or female, and as soon as it saw me it took off in the other direction. As long as you keep a clean camp I don't think you have much to worry about.

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#164263 - 03/21/12 12:01 PM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: Blue_Ridge_Ninja]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
I've had a few close encounters with black bears (under 50 feet.) In one case, while trail running, I accidentally ran between a mother and her cubs. She was about 20 feet away.

In all cases, I relaxed and looked away from the bear. They almost immediately lost interest and went about their business.

Staring at a bear to take a shot might induce the attack you are trying to avoid. Stopping an attacking bear in its tracks would take a very lucky shot. Encounters usually last just a few seconds. It would be over one way or another before you got the gun out.

I've found the same technique works for dogs, too. If I pretend they aren't there, they leave me alone.

Disclaimer: This is based on personal experience and may not match other popular opinions.
_________________________
http://48statehike.blogspot.com/

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#164264 - 03/21/12 12:01 PM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: Keith]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
I have had different experiences. I run into several bears every year. Habituated black bears are not that easy to run off, however, you need not carry weapons! I have had many bear encounters, some really up close! Treat EVERY bear encounter as a potential problem. If on the trail or off-trail, detour around them and be careful not to appear threatning (I always talk to them calmly while I walk by and do not look back at them). Look around to see if a cub is nearby. Getting between mom and cub is not good. In camp, just being clean is not enough in areas of habituated bears. That is why bear cannisters are REQUIRED in much of the Sierra. I have had a bear roll around my bear cannister then come and poke his nose inside the tent! Repeated attempts at running him off with noise failed. I had to get out of the tent and literally run him off screaming and waving with my trekking poles. Throwing rocks sometimes helps. The minute a bear comes into your campsite, make it very clear to him that he is NOT welcome! If your food is not protected, he will get it. Do not try to take it back. By the way, bear spray is not legal in some national parks.

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#164265 - 03/21/12 12:04 PM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: Gershon]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
I think bears are territorial. They KNOW your campsite is YOUR territory. So you can be aggressive within your territory. They also know that the woods are their territory, so in that case, you are correct- play your appropriate role as the intruder and avoid them and do not act like the agressor. The NPS is now recommending agressive action if a bear comes into your campsite. This is a change from thier previous recommendations.

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#164286 - 03/21/12 06:19 PM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: Keith]
BZH Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 1189
Loc: Madison, AL
I grew up in the UP (Norway). You didn't say north central or south central. Are you in Ishepeming, Negaunee, or Gladstone?

I have had several encounters with black bears in the UP but I have never come across an habituated bear. The ones I saw always ran off. We never hung our food camping unless it was recommend in the area.

If you an in an area that recommends hanging, then hang. If you think you are going to be around habituated bears then carry bear spray. Otherwise I personally wouldn't act any differently than you are and I think your friend is acting on fear. Bears are pretty actively hunted in the UP. There are not that many areas where they are protected. They tend to be pretty afraid of humans.

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#164292 - 03/21/12 06:58 PM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: BZH]
Heather-ak Offline
member

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Fairbanks, AK
Just keep in mind the "culture" of the local bear population. UP bears, and MI bears in general are not going to be the same as Black bears anywhere else. Up here the black bears are considered more dangerous than grizzlies.

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#164294 - 03/21/12 07:23 PM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: Heather-ak]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
Heather- did you get to your bay area conference and where did you end up hiking?

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#164295 - 03/21/12 07:28 PM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: Keith]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
There are some situations where a gun may be appropriate. Loaded guns in the tent are just asking for an accident if you do not know what you are doing. If you can wake from a deep sleep, have your wits and then aim and really shoot a bear in the dark, good luck. I am a firm believer that only those very proficient in the use and safety of firmarms should carry them. For the rest of us, bear spray is more appropriate.

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#164315 - 03/22/12 10:45 AM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: wandering_daisy]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Originally Posted By wandering_daisy
I am a firm believer that only those very proficient in the use and safety of firmarms should carry them. For the rest of us, bear spray is more appropriate.


I completely agree with that.

Honestly, I'd feel more comfortable dealing with a bear that walked into my camp than having a person with a gun there.

We have black bears here too. There is one that hangs out near a campsite on a popular trail in the Ouachita mountains down in Arkansas (the Eagle Rock Loop I think). In every report I've heard of, the people that encountered it did nothing but wait for it to leave. I suspect that bear will get ballsy soon, probably this Spring or Summer. I mentioned in a post about it that I replied to that they need to start teaching that bear that it is unwelcome, and not one local backed that up. I honestly think it's because they think they'd like to see it too, and I'm concerned that people are purposely going to the spot where its been sighted to get a glimpse. If that's the case, then baiting the bear is probably going on too.

The first problem with that is a person may be injured or killed in an encounter with the bear. After that the bear will be killed for sure. The other is that the bear is much more likely to get killed by a hunter. I'm not against hunter bears there, but I don't think they should be trained to walk right up to a gun barrel and stand there thinking they are going to get a treat to eat.

Anyway, I never carry any weapons when I hike or backpack. I don't use a canister or even hang my food very often here, and I seldom use trails or campsites. I see bear scat every now and then, but the only bear I've ever seen here was hiding from me when I saw it. I left, the bear stayed put, and we haven't crossed paths since. (I've also gotten a little more cautious about sticking my nose into spots where bears might like to hang out. wink )
_________________________
--

"You want to go where?"



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#164319 - 03/22/12 11:38 AM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: Heather-ak]
BZH Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 1189
Loc: Madison, AL
Originally Posted By Heather-ak
Just keep in mind the "culture" of the local bear population. UP bears, and MI bears in general are not going to be the same as Black bears anywhere else. Up here the black bears are considered more dangerous than grizzlies.


Yup I agree. The advice I gave is no where close to how I deal with bears here in California.


Edited by BZH (03/22/12 11:39 AM)

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#164321 - 03/22/12 11:55 AM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: BZH]
Wolfeye Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 413
Loc: Seattle, WA
+1 on what Heather and Wandering Daisy said: It depends on the bears in the area. It also depends on the firearm proficiency of the person; it takes a lot more training and practice than most shooters have gone through for them to rely on a firearm as a weapon, in my opinion.

I'd also add that it depends on the culture of the people in the area. I grew up in SE Alaska, where it was almost seen as irresponsible to not carry a gun for bear protection. Now I live near Seattle, where carrying a gun on the trail would probably end up in 911 calls and a lengthy discussion with a ranger. "When in Rome, blah blah blah."

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#164332 - 03/22/12 05:05 PM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: wandering_daisy]
Heather-ak Offline
member

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Fairbanks, AK
Yes I did - and I ended up at Point Reyes, but in hindsight I think I should have done Henry Coe instead - I got blown out of Point Reyes.

Writing up my trip report / lessons learned / new lessons I still need to learn =)

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#164338 - 03/22/12 07:44 PM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: Keith]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Unless you have a gun of sufficient caliber to deal with a bear, and sufficient confidence and experience to use said gun when a bear is seconds away and charging madly with teeth bared, you are far, far better off taking bear spray. You don't need to precisely aim while adrenalin is rushing through your body and your hands are shaking and every cell is yelling to run! to use bear spray.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#164340 - 03/22/12 07:59 PM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: lori]
Heather-ak Offline
member

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Fairbanks, AK
To be honest - I have my doubts on the bear spray. I've seen studies, I own it and carry it. I've done some basic training with it. If conditions (wind, humidity, distance) are perfect I think it will work. My life never has perfect conditions. eek

So I'm working hard on avoidance! Clean camp, camping away from animal trails, "singing", being aware of surroundings and if you have other suggestions for avoidance, great!

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#164341 - 03/22/12 08:01 PM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: Keith]
Dryer Offline

Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
We are talking about black bears, right? I've had 5 or so black bear encounters including one sniffing me while sleeping under my tarp, two on bike rides, one while hiking, two on the side of the road (we got out to take pictures). In all cases, it was hard to keep from spooking them into a mad dash into the woods. It's never crossed my mind to arm myself against a black bear. A dollar store air horn, or a whistle would freak one completely out. grin
A trash can hibuated bear might be another story but even those are easily scared away.


Edited by Dryer (03/22/12 10:26 PM)
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#164343 - 03/22/12 09:03 PM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: Dryer]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
In many areas of California, you'll see tracks and scat but hardly ever a bear, and then it's the hind end rapidly vanishing into brush.

The habituated bruins often use the national park trails - I've been ten feet from a bear a couple of times on trails, and in response to the yelling and trekking pole waving, the bear has glanced at me as if bored stiff and walked away slowly.

I had a bear sneaking up on me in Yosemite with her cub - I stood up (sandwich in hand, that's what she was after) and stared, and she walked away.

Checking on the food storage rules for the area you're traveling to will shed light on the behavior of the bears - Yosemite will levy up to a $5000 fine for not having a canister from the approved list, and the parking lots are full of bear lockers. Go to campgrounds in national forest areas and there will be lockers with broken latches, and the camp host will instruct you to stick stuff in your trunk (huge no-no in Yosemite where the bears rip open cars).

I don't even bother with bear spray in California, but if I were heading to Montana, Wyoming or other states with a grizzly population, I'd pick up a canister before hitting the trail.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#164344 - 03/22/12 09:34 PM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: Dryer]
aimless Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3292
Loc: Portland, OR
My own experience with black bears is here in the PNW, where they are still very human averse and they run away when they see me. But that doesn't mean to me that black bears are timid and harmless, only that Oregon's black bears are pretty reliably timid and harmless.

Bears have a lot of intelligence and personality, which means that individual bears can vary widely. They also spend up to two years with their mothers, learning the ropes, which means that bear populations can develop different cultures over a period of decades. The bear culture in the Sierras in very different than in the Oregon Cascades. So, if someone says the black bears in the Upper Peninsula are considered dangerous, I'm not inclined to contradict them. It could be a local thing.

The only constant with bears that I know of is that they are always interested in food, 24 hours a day, no matter how much they've already had to eat. wink

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#164347 - 03/22/12 10:10 PM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: aimless]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
You obviously cannot generalize about black bears and they DO have personalities. Every situation is different. It has been my experience that bears that are hunted regularly want to stay away from humans, unless they are stressed by hunger. Bears who have a high success ratio of getting food from humans vs getting shot by humans do not necessarily fear humans. Hunting is not allowed in National Parks, so these bears have less reason to fear humans. Add to that all the tourists who want to feed bears and sloppy food care at campgrounds.

My various bear encounters:

1) Bear in camp - looking for food. Only once- a juvenile bear rolled around bear can then very curious - I swear he was bored and wanted to play!

2) Bears in close proximity to me on the trail-(many encounters) territorial - if startled they may attack, otherwise they just want to establish that they are in charge. Usually look angry for a while, then run off.

3) Bears off in the far distance (too many of these to count) - ignore me, or slowly amble off farther into the woods.

4) Moma bear protecting young - three of these- two ran cubs up the nearest tree and then got on hind legs and glared at me as I backed up and detoured, one I met on a trail where I could not get off the trail resulting in a half hour impasse; cub sent to the bushes, lots of conversation between me and Mama, I finally slowly passed.

5) Copulating bears - growled at me (not sure who was the most embarrased, them or me) but they were more interested in continuing their activities.

6) Bear kiss- sleeping next to my car out in the open and a wet bear nose in my face. After the bear left I got into the car and drove off a mile out if its way.

And I must say, that EVERY bear encounter is terrifying to me! Every bear encounter has a potential for a bad outcome. So far I have been lucky.



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#164352 - 03/23/12 07:44 AM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: wandering_daisy]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
Quote:
It has been my experience that bears that are hunted regularly want to stay away from humans, unless they are stressed by hunger. Bears who have a high success ratio of getting food from humans vs getting shot by humans do not necessarily fear humans. Hunting is not allowed in National Parks, so these bears have less reason to fear humans. Add to that all the tourists who want to feed bears and sloppy food care at campgrounds.


This has been my experience as well. Same goes for all the predators. Even Grizzly. I've only seen grizzly 4 times, while I spent some time in Montana mapping geology. One base was in a KOA where the manager was an avid hunter I befriended. Him and his pals were very much into hunting grizzly with .44 Mag, and he told me they KNOW where they are protected and where they are not. Sure enough, when we ran into griz on 3 separate occasions in the forest, they took off quickly. The other time we ran into one in Glacier. Completely different...it was obvious that WE needed to back out of there calmly and quickly. At the time I was there, we were all armed with handguns (except in the Parks) and many of the locals were armed as well.

Most of my black bear encounters fall into these categories;

1) from a distance and they fade into the forest.

2) in camp at night looking for food. Usually this is in an area of heavily used camp sites and I am woke up by the sound of clanging pots and pans.

My policy now is to carry bear spray where there are brown bear. Up to this point, I have carried nothing for black bear, but I look into bear activity to see what kind of problems are occurring before I head into an area.

As an aside, there was an incident of a black bear shooting after it broke into his house in the June Lake area about a year ago. Using a handgun (something like a 9 mm) the guy was familiar with, it took 6 shots to finish the bear off. And that was just a Sierra black bear. Accuracy is probably the biggest factor in having success using rifles or handguns as a defense against bears. Practice, practice, practice or leave the gun at home.

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#164353 - 03/23/12 09:13 AM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: aimless]
Dryer Offline

Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
No experience with brown/griz bears, even though I've hiked where they should have been.

My black bear experiences range from Arkansas, where one sat in the trail, holding up a mountain bike race. The kid at the front banged a stick on his handlebars and the bear finally moved off.

Big Bend Ntl' park...racing bears! These bears are so fast and stealthy you'll see their butts putting distance between you and them. "Electra" is a female bear there that raids the trash at the employee village and is habituated.
This is where I got sniffed at 3:00 a.m. Stank like a pig, which is what woke me up. Just laid still...bear lost interest...food/pack was in a bear box.
Sick or lost mountain lions have caused injury in Big Bend, almost every year. I've never heard of a bear/human contact there.

Just west of Toronto, wife and I came up on a bear sitting in the middle of the road, while we were on a bike ride. Thought it was a big dog. Got within 30 ft. before we figured it out. Bear took off into the woods.

Alberta...two mom bears with cubs, two different locations. Bears tolerated tourists that got within 5 feet!! We were more interested in seeing which tourist got their knees bit off. Didn't happen. Bears kept their ground, tourists got their pictures.

Yeah, black bears behave differently depending on where they are but being armed against them never seem necessary.
I've been around cattle, horses, and hogs that have tried to kill me, but still, holding my ground and shooting at one would have proved really bad...for me. They aren't much of a "panic" target, when coming head-on. A dog will do you more good around farm critters. grin
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#164354 - 03/23/12 09:23 AM Re: Armaments appropriate for UP black bears . . . [Re: Dryer]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
Dryer,

When I read you saw a bear holding up a bike, I pictured it holding the bike over its head. Thanks for the laugh.

_________________________
http://48statehike.blogspot.com/

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