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#126091 - 12/30/09 03:19 PM down sleeping bag
skippy Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/09
Posts: 129
Loc: CO
Any preferences on a good down bag in the 20 degree range that won't break the bank? I have nursed a beast from the east Slumberjack for over 10 years and am somewhat sick of its weight (I will never weigh it until I have to no longer carry it as this would be depressing) and lack of warmth.

Under 200 beans.

-Skippy

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#126094 - 12/30/09 03:57 PM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: skippy]
Eugene Offline
member

Registered: 12/26/09
Posts: 60
Loc: San Diego, CA
I only see two on REI that fit the bill.
http://www.rei.com/product/762605
http://www.rei.com/product/780026

Strangely enough, the +15F Sierra Designs bag weighs nearly half that of the +20F Kelty bag. Maybe because the Kelty bag is substantially wider?


Here are a few bags at Cabela's...don't know if this link will still work for you.
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templa...equestid=119561


Edited by Eugene (12/30/09 04:01 PM)
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#126105 - 12/30/09 05:24 PM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: Eugene]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
The girth is different, and the quantity of fill is different. I would suppose the heavier bag would be more likely to be accurately rated. The lighter one is more likely to be a 30-40 degree bag in actual use.

Campmor's 20 degree down bags are a good budget buy, if you also take into account that the rating is optimistic and figure on more like 25-30 degree comfort. The Campmor brand bag will be around $120-130.

You might also look into quilts. I get true 20 degree warmth with about 20 oz of down quilt. The hat adds about 3-5 oz and I wear midweight base layer and my wool socks. YMMV.
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#126107 - 12/30/09 06:15 PM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: skippy]
OldScout Offline
member

Registered: 03/17/03
Posts: 501
Loc: Puget Sound, Washington
Under 200 beans makes it difficult for a truly 20 degree bag that is light weight but they are out there USED. Keep your eyes peeled for sales and at this site and occasionally good deals pop up in bags that you wouldn't normally be able to afford if they were brand new. The trick is to do all of your research ahead of time so when a particular bag pops up for sale, you can hop on it quickly. OldScout

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#126109 - 12/30/09 07:46 PM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: OldScout]
idahosteve Offline
member

Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 62
Loc: Idaho
My humble .02 is that this is the one place where you just can't put the budget constraints on. I have bit the bullet on two nice down bags , and they have collectively lasted right at 25 years, and the latest one is only 5 years old.
Spend the money! You can feel the difference when you sleep, and you can appreciate the difference in weight. And in addition, the better down allows you to use a lighter rated bag in colder weather. I regularly use my MH Phantom (30 degree/ 800 loft)in below freezing conditins. With the extra clother I have anyway, its an easy way to add to my bags versatility. Its worth every single penny to spend an extra 50-100 bones! you will never never regret it.
Good Luck!
FYI, there are some great deals on high end bags right now.
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#126113 - 12/30/09 08:47 PM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: lori]
sabre11004 Offline
member

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 513
Loc: Tennessee
A temp rating on a sleeping bag is only to say that you will not die at "that" temp. In other words, a 20 degree bag will not keep you comfortable at 20 degrees. I realize that it does not make any sense but that is just the way that it is I guess...sabre11004... goodjob

P.S. The assumption that a heavier fill will offer more accurate temp ratings is correct
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#126114 - 12/30/09 08:49 PM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: OldScout]
sabre11004 Offline
member

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 513
Loc: Tennessee
Listen to oldscout... He is giving you some very good advice on your purchase of a decent sleeping bag. Western Mountaineering would be your best bet but to expect to get one for under $200.00 is not very realistic...sabre11004... goodjob
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#126115 - 12/30/09 08:54 PM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: skippy]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
If you come back, I would check out Campmor, I picked up a North Face down bag over 10 years ago for about 1/3 off, but is was only a 35 degree bag, but three pounds lighter than my synthetic bag. They have good deals on gear. Sierra Trading Post also.

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#126117 - 12/30/09 09:16 PM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: hikerduane]
skinewmexico Offline
member

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 81

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#126122 - 12/30/09 11:24 PM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: sabre11004]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Western Mountaineering is one company that does appear to rate its bags accurately, for comfort rather than survival. The 20* F Ultralight Super really does take me down to 20* in just a base layer and (when below 30* F) a non-breathable rain suit as a vapor barrier. And I'm a really cold sleeper! If you can either save the bucks or buy one used, it will be well worth your while!

As a cheaper measure, REI's Outlet is still selling their Sub-Kilo bags (middle-quality down) for $160 for the regular length and $170 for the long. These are, supposedly 750-fill down. I picked up one for my 9-going-on-10 year old grandson. Watch for another 20% off coupon on Outlet stuff, which would let you get it for $130. Not as good, and probably closer to 30* F than the advertised 20*, but should last a while with care.


Edited by OregonMouse (12/30/09 11:31 PM)
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#126129 - 12/31/09 06:21 AM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: sabre11004]
Roocketman Offline
member

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 203
Originally Posted By sabre11004
A temp rating on a sleeping bag is only to say that you will not die at "that" temp. In other words, a 20 degree bag will not keep you comfortable at 20 degrees. I realize that it does not make any sense but that is just the way that it is I guess...sabre11004... goodjob

P.S. The assumption that a heavier fill will offer more accurate temp ratings is correct


A heavier fill will provide a warmer bag compared to a similarly constructed bag of equivalent fill.

The accuracy of any rating of sleeping bag depends upon the rating methodology used by the manufacturer. Some like to lie more than others. Slumberjack. They greatly inflate the temperature rating and deflate the weight by several ounces.

A down bag of only 8 ounce fill with 800 cu.in./oz will be warmer than a synthetic bag of only 8 ounce fill and it will be warmer than a down bag of only 8 ounce fill of lower quality down, say 600 cu.in./oz. Weight, alone, isn't a measure of warmth or accuracy of the methodology used by the manufacturer.

There is some value to the weight and warmth relationship, but less as an absolute. In the interest of quick communication, you may have oversimplified.

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#126130 - 12/31/09 08:45 AM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: skippy]
skippy Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/09
Posts: 129
Loc: CO
Maybe you all are convincing me to wait a bit longer to get a higher fill bag than I was contemplating. Decisions....

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#126135 - 12/31/09 10:44 AM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: skippy]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
Do some shopping around, lots of deals, a good time killer to go shopping online.

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#126137 - 12/31/09 12:22 PM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: skippy]
Jim M Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/03
Posts: 430
Loc: Kitsap Peninsula, WA
I think, as usual, that cost and weight and comfort are all part of an equation that might make certain combinations inpossible. That is, you might have to pay more than $200 for a very light weight bag that weighs less than a kilo (I'm thinking that is a reasonable maximum wt. these days). Campmor is a good place to start if you are concerned with price. I see they have a Marmot Sawtooth 15 degree bag for $180. At 2 lbs, 14 ounces (1.3 kilos)it is a bit heavier than I want to carry, especially in summer. I don't own any Marmot bags (I have 3 down bags and one 3D synthetic fill bag), but their other products I own seem to be of high quality.

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___46338
_________________________
Jim M

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#126151 - 01/01/10 07:18 AM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: skippy]
skippy Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/09
Posts: 129
Loc: CO
How much real difference do you notice in weight and warmth between the fill ratings of down? Say a 650 vs 800, etc.

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#126153 - 01/01/10 09:14 AM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: skippy]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
I think it probably depends mostly on you, and what bags you've used before. I've got a Western Mountaineering Mitylite (850 fill, 40 degree rating) that I've used in both quilt and bag mode for several years. When Thermarest came out with its Ventana quilt (650 fill, 40 degrees), I got one to try. It was really nice to sleep under, but I felt like it was heavier on me than the WM bag. It was a very minor difference, and I think I only noticed it because I had used the Mitylite first. If the Ventana had been my first down "bag" after using synthetic bags, I'd have been deliriously happy at how featherweight (pun intended) it felt to sleep under. (That was exactly how I felt when I got a TNF Blue Kazoo - probably a 600 fill - to replace a TNF Cat's Meow, the synthetic equivalent.)

If you're not used to an 850 fill bag, and not a fanatically picky gearhead (guilty, your honor) you'll probably notice no difference in use. However, the 650 fill will lead to a slightly heavier carry in your pack - the Ventana is half a pound heavier than the Mitylite; again, unless you're a total weight freak (I'm not "total" - yet), it won't make any practical difference on a long weekend.


Edited by Glenn (01/01/10 09:16 AM)

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#126154 - 01/01/10 09:22 AM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: Glenn]
skippy Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/09
Posts: 129
Loc: CO
Glenn made some interesting points along the lines of perspective. I come from the perspective of having very few (less than 5) nights in a down bag and that was over 10 years ago. For me almost any decent down bag would initially seem great and light after hauling around the junk I've had for several years.


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#126157 - 01/01/10 10:56 AM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: Glenn]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
The higher down quality also have a superior drape. 650 feels like a bag of feathers. My wife and I slept under a down comforter in a duvet for years. After I used a Nunatak quilt for a while I replaced the down comforter with a Jacks'R'Better large quilt. Once you have slept between high thread count Egyptian cotton sheets it is hard to go back to the Wal*Mart specials.
_________________________
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."
Yogi Berra

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#126161 - 01/01/10 02:31 PM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: ringtail]
skippy Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/09
Posts: 129
Loc: CO
Originally Posted By food
The higher down quality also have a superior drape. 650 feels like a bag of feathers. My wife and I slept under a down comforter in a duvet for years. After I used a Nunatak quilt for a while I replaced the down comforter with a Jacks'R'Better large quilt. Once you have slept between high thread count Egyptian cotton sheets it is hard to go back to the Wal*Mart specials.


Ahhh! So what you're saying is that I will be ruined for life if I get a good quality bag there is no turning back. A bag snob for life I'll become....

It reminds me of when I first got into mountain bike racing as in that once I got my first really nice bike, I wasn't goin' back to no Huffy!


Edited by skippy (01/01/10 11:54 PM)

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#126162 - 01/01/10 02:37 PM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: ringtail]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
How closely a down bag fits your body does have an extreme effect on its warmth. A bag that may be warm for a big guy, may freeze a smaller guy - why? Because empty airspace means more air to warm up between you and the bag. This may seem counter intuitive, after all isn't loft the primary thing? A bag that will keep you warm at its rating will most likely feel constricting. Since I HATE tight bags, but do go out in some pretty nasty weather I needed a solution.

My winter bag is a WM super Kodiak. Its rated at -5 but I was cold in it even at +5. However I weigh 175 and it was designed for 280 pound 6 foot 6 line backer. The extra space was simply too much for me warm up.

The solution. I have two thin 1/8 inch diameter elastic cords buried inside the bag that attach near the zipper and are sewed done after adjusting the tension so they just barely pull the bag against my body. There is a band near my waist and one near my knees. I can stretch out inside this huge bag if I choose, yet the elastic pulls it against me and now I am cozy at -5. There are now three air pockets in the bag and there are no drafts because the elastic prevents it. I think I may be the only person on the planet that does this and it is such a simple fix that I don't understand why others don't do it.
Jim S
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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#126165 - 01/01/10 03:27 PM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: Jimshaw]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Didn't Sierra Designs steal your idea and build a whole line of bags with elastic panels to allow stretch for larger persons/sprawlers? Are some of the Montbell bags similar?

Actually, it's a great idea, Jim. The best part, versus buying a built-in stretch design, is that your bag snugs in where YOU need it to snug in, not where some designer guesses most people need it to be snug.

In warmer weather, using my WM Mitylite as a quilt accomplishes something similar: I kind of tuck it around me to minimize large air spaces. Sometimes it even works. wink

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#126196 - 01/02/10 02:24 PM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: skippy]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Exactly, the performance difference between 650 and 800 is probably less than 10%. If your good bike were stolen the first day of a week in Moab, you could still have a good time on a rental bike, but you would know the difference.


Edited by food (01/02/10 02:25 PM)
_________________________
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."
Yogi Berra

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#126197 - 01/02/10 02:42 PM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: skippy]
DJ2 Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 1348
Loc: Seattle, WA
This is why I don't want to know the difference between good and bad wine. That way I can mix any type of wine with gatorade and be satisfied.

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#126198 - 01/02/10 02:56 PM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: sabre11004]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Originally Posted By sabre11004
A temp rating on a sleeping bag is only to say that you will not die at "that" temp. In other words, a 20 degree bag will not keep you comfortable at 20 degrees. I realize that it does not make any sense but that is just the way that it is I guess...sabre11004... goodjob

P.S. The assumption that a heavier fill will offer more accurate temp ratings is correct


This statement is not true for all bags and especially not true for bags with an EN 13537 rating, depending on which part of the rating you are talking about How a bag is rated is important. If a bag has an EN 13537 rating, you can get an accurate picture of the temperature range for the bag. All bags sold in the EU have to be tested.

Here is a simple explanation of the rating system-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_13537

Here is an example of the rating of a MacPac bag-
Weight
1.5kg
Colour
Left hand zip, Right hand zip
Fill weight
800gms
Fill power
800 loft
Temp rating
Comfort -7C / Limit -14C / Extreme -35C

As you can see, there is a 28C difference between the comfort level and the extreme level. The lowest practical level is -14C for this bag, which is about +7F. MacPac bags are high end bags; I have one I bought back in the 80's. Not this model though. Mine is rated to -5C and in my experience, that is pretty accurate.

I don't know which American bags have an EN 13537 rating since most manufacturers don't sell them in the EU and don't want to spend the money to have their bags tested for that market.

The closest WM bag to the MacPac bag I could find is the Antelope, which is rated to -15C. The WM bag is about 12-14 ounces lighter overall than the MacPac (which I attribute to the bag's material and construction, not insulation), has slightly less fill in the standard version, the same in the long and the temp rating is almost identical to the EN limit level. Based on this comparison, it appears the WM ratings are very comparable to the EN standard.
http://tinyurl.com/yar983w





Edited by TomD (01/02/10 02:59 PM)
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#127209 - 01/23/10 02:50 PM Re: down sleeping bag [Re: TomD]
Dragon Offline
newbie

Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 13
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
If 80% of your outings will be done when a 30-40 degree F bag would do, why not pick up a reasonably priced used bag for that temperature range, and use your existing heavy bag (perhaps in combination with the "new" one, to handle the rarer outings in colder temps. I've bought 3 good, lightweight, used synthetic bags, all for under $50 each. The REI Down Travel bag (http://www.rei.com/product/746296) is small, lightweight (27 oz.), and runs $109 new. I loved mine when I had it.

Then later, with more experience under your belt, and recognizing what gaps you want to fill, you could shop again for a higher end, higher priced bag that would perhaps handle lower temps.

I just posted this on another thread where the guy was asking about lightweight:

Going lightweight is a journey, and an evolution. Among others, I own a Western Mountaineering Megalite, and a Nunatak Arc Alpinist. They are the "creme de la creme".

If budget is an issue, I would recommend first buying a used decent quality bag on one of the many gear forums. With the experience gained from many trips, you could later buy one that you feel is better suited to the areas and seasons you visit. Someone else will want your first bag if it is a good one, and has been taken care of.

At some point in time, you may have a collection that you choose from depending on the anticipated trip needs.

As many as I've now got, I still have desires for some others to add to my collection. I'd like a lighter (than 21 oz.) Nunatak Arc Edge (11 oz.) or Arc AT (8 oz.).

Good luck, and happy hoofing.

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