Hi Folks,
New to the forum, this is my first post! I am looking to buy a new tent, a 2 person one that is "pretty lightweight." Having said that I don't really have a qualification for lightweight, and I was hoping to find a tent lighter than my current 12 lb old Eureka. I was thinking about single wall tents, particularly the ability to shave off some weight by not needing a fly. The ones that I have been looking at are the Bibler ones that Black Diamond sells as well as the Integral Designs MK1 series, both of which are in my price range. I will be using the tents for 4 seasons, including some trips that will span from hot and dry to cold and wet. My concerns are:

- Condensation: with "waterproof, breathable" materials like ToddTex and TegralTex, is condensation really an issue? I know that physics tells me that condensation will happen under a given set of conditions no matter what, but how broad is that range of conditions?
- Durability: are there any durability concessions that one might make by picking one of these tents over a competitive 2 wall design?
- Why isn't there a Gore-Tex tent out there?

Thanks for your help!

MD

I'm not a big fan myself, but if you're interested in single wall tents, you definitely want to look at the Tarptent products (click on the box in the upper left corner of this page.) They're truly innovative, incredibly light, and have a huge following that can give you very detailed information. I could never develop the "warm fuzzies" for single wall tents, but it's a personal preference as opposed to any objective decision. A lot of people whose opinions I respect use Tarptents very successfully, and the ones I've seen are very well-made.

Condensation is an issue with all tents in the right conditions: wet, humid, when the tent will be buttoned down. With a double wall tent, you can mitigate it under some fair-weather conditions by simply not pitching the fly; with mesh-inner double-wall tents, this does an excellent job of eliminating condensation. You don't have that option with single-wall tents - though in fair conditions, the TarpTents can be opened up enough that condensation is a non-issue (based on what others have said.) I've even experienced condensation under a tarp, when I had closed off the ends to block rain. Condensation, for me, has always been more a function of weather than tent construction.

It would also help to know where you intend to use the tent; in the Ohio valley, where I hike, I prefer the versatility of a double-wall tent because I can leave the fly off when it's hot and humid. If you're hiking in some western regions, this might not be a consideration (again, you'll have to get information from someone who knows that.)

If you're not opposed to double-wall tents, check out the Big Agnes Seedhouse, Emerald Mountain, and Copper Spur series of tents. They are lighter than most other double wall tents, and may fit your needs (no promises, though.) They come close to being as light as the Tarptent Rainbow series (the Tarptent is, I believe still a touch lighter; other Tarptent designs are significantly lighter.)

Welcome!

A single-wall tent for a wide variety of weather conditions, from mid-summer heat to wintery snow, is just about impossible.

In no particular order:

WPB fabrics can certainly help, but there aren't a lot to choose among. The best all-around performing fabric is eVent, but you have to look overseas to find a tent made of the stuff. They are available and priced similarly to the Bibler and ID options. The Epic tents by Black Diamond are a nice option for reducing cost, weight and condensation, but they will wet through in heavy downpours, so consider that before buying.

Impermeable single-wall tents rely completely on aggressive ventilation to reduce condensation, but conditions can definitely overwhelm even the best designs. A calm, cold night in a soggy setting will create condensation even on an open tarp. If they're roomy enough to avoid the walls you can live with a certain amount of condensation, but at some point it will actually drip on you unless the walls are quite steep. I like teepee style floorless tents like the old Golite Hex as a versatile and lightweight option.

Double-wall designs have shed some weight, so might still be an option. You might look at Big Sky and their double-wall modular three/four-season tents. You can mix and match poles and flies and other bits to cut weight and increase ventilation in the summer, and go bombproof in the winter. Again, not cheap.

Goretex tents went off the market with enhanced fire-retandant regs. Too bad, that.

Cheers,

I'd also check out Tarptent, Six Moon Designs and Gossamer Gear (the last is pricier because they use lighter--more expensive--fabric). With these tents, you get a lot more internal space for the weight involved. Tarptent's Squall 2, for instance, has lots of space for two adults plus fairly large dog or two packs.

Ventilation is the key to preventing condensation. Also check the info on Tarptent's website about reducing condensation--a lot depends on tent site selection (which you have to be careful about with a double wall tent, too). I've had far worse ventilation in a double-wall tent--the condensation from the fly would drip right through the inner tent fabric, leaving puddles on sleeping bag and floor. Whatever tent you get, don't get one with an outward-slanting screen door that has to be closed up tight in the slightest drizzle!

I personally prefer the Tarptent designs because they seem to have the best ventilation. They have a nice 360 degree view when you're lying down. I find double-wall tents claustrophobic.

I've read reviews that the breathable single-wall tents tent to wet out in prolonged heavy rains. Not having tried one, I cannot attest to the truth of this claim.

That being said, the non-breathable single-wall tents are not for four-season use. A couple of inches of snow, fine, but not a foot or more. Tarptent, however, has just come out with their Scarp 1 and Scarp 2 models, which are double-wall, four-season tents that can be lightened (with mesh inner and less poles) for three-season use. You might want to search this site (see directions in the "sticky" in the "General Discussion" section) for recent appraisals of this tent.

Hi
You will get a lot of conflicting advice all from very experienced people. So first off - it depends on you.
However to answer your question - its maybe better to get a light cheap screen tent for summer and the other tent for 3 seasons.

I have a Toddtex Bibler Eldorado. I would put it up against ANY TENT MADE ANYWHERE. Toddtex simply does not have a condensation problem. I have had some ice crystals on the aluminum poles which are inside the tent, but never ever noticed any on the Toddtex. The Eldorado like many single wall tents has zippered roof ventilation which is far superior to any you can get under the fly of a 2 layer tent. The single walled tents are MUCH easier to set up in wind and storms. A single walled tent should weigh less than a 2 walled comparison tent.

If cost is no object, buy an eldorado or I tent with two doors, then you can vent as well as any tent made.

just my $.02 worth
Jim YMMV

I have to disagree with the poster who states that a singlewall tent for all weather conditions is impossible; my experience does not bear this out. I bought my first SW tent, an Early Winters Gore-Tex Light Dimension in early 1978 and used it for almost 20 years extensively, until it was just totally worn out.

I lived in this tent for a month in early spring in the lower Flathead Valley in B.C. without ANY difficulty with condensation. I used it in every season of the year and my only complaint was it was difficult to erect and too bright in colour for a hunter.

I bought a Bibler Solo Dome in 1991 and used it on the "Eastern Slopes" of the Canadian Rockies and here in B.C., until 2007, it was too confining and not of the superb quality of the Early Winters, but, it did the job.

In 2006, I bought an Integral Designs MKI-XL and this is the BEST singlewall tent I have ever had or used. It is better made than Bibler's, easier to erect and the design is more weather-proof; I have lived alone in the most remote parts of B.C. for extended periods and this tent would be among my 4-5 top choices for such use, without question.

I would strongly suggest an I.D. "Yukon" for your needs and get the larger vestibule, this is one FINE shelter for ANY conditions and I wish I had one...and I have two I.D.s, two Hillebergs and a Kifaru 8-man, so, I gotta be pretty impressed to recommend this.

If, you decide to go with a double wall, I would pick the Hilleberg Jannu, the other tent I would love to own and either of these WILL do ANYTHING ANYWHERE that you will ever want to do....or, if you want a bit more space in a SW tent, go with the I.D. MKIII.

I see nothing on the current market that is equal to I.D. and Hilleberg and the seemingly high cost of these is acceptable in view of what you get for your $$$$$$. HTH.

Gore-Tex
The Gore branded version was taken off the market as tent material because of fire regulations.
However Todd-Tex (a word play on Gore-tex by Todd Bibler) and Tegral Tex use the same principle of all PTFE laminates, that is ,stretched Teflon coated with fabric on top and some protective layer underneath.
Anecdotally (some tests by BPL confirm this) the most "breathable" of them all is eVent available (under another name...) with the Rab "bivi" series

http://www.rab.uk.com/equipment/bivvis/new_summit_mountain_bivi---140/
note that the max height given on the web site for the Summit Extreme and Summit Superlight is the top of the door not the apex.
(to avoid litigation the official max allowed height with eVent is 70 cm)
Starting from 12 lbs is not going to be difficult to get a lighter tent.
If your 4 season includes extreme weather , IE over 2' of snow and or 50mph plus winds, the above mentioned Hilleberg or ID/Bibler could do the job, but I disagree that you will find an ID or Bibler comfortable in hot muggy weather.
If on the other hand your winters are not that extreme and are after a versatile shelter than the Scarp 2 could be a good choice.
Keep in mind that the 2 pole crossover design (Bibler/ID/RAB) is specifically made for climbers where weight, small footprint and strength are priorities over livability, IE no vestibule . Yes you can add one to some of them but they tend to be heavy and cumbersome compared with the built in variety.
Franco

I find ANY tent uncomfortable in hot, muggy weather, but, have put in lots of nights in my SW tents in such conditions. Now, that RAB "Mountain Bivy" looks like what I have been dreaming of for a long time, it would be "perfect" for most of my uses and one in red for winter and in green for summer would be most useful to me.

Franco, do you have the specs. of that in imperial measurements? How TALL is it, in inches to the peak?

I have not seen the Mountain bivi, on their site the max height is 39.3".
Looking at the geometry and comparing it with the Summit Extreme (the products pics appear to be on scale) it seems to me about the right height.
Note that the max height of the Summit is always listed as 700mm (27.5") however it is in fact 33" .
Franco
I am 5'7"

I have three single wall tents - Epic, GoreTex, Silnylon. They all experience condensation - sometimes - in all four seasons. Is it an issue - absolutely not. I've learned to deal with it. Everything from venting, wiping up, setup location, to don't touch the sides of the tent are techniques you'll learn to deal with condensation - if it happens. Two of my three sleeping systems have DryLoft shells.
Although I don't camp on mountain tops, I can't see that durability is an issue. They all have limitations and are intended for different conditions. I know what they are and find appropriate sites to suit.
I can't answer your third questions, although someone else has commented on that and the explanation sounds reasonable.

Great help guys - thanks so much! I am liking the ID type low frills designs, and they sound bullet proof! What does a tent like this realistically weigh?

PM sent.

To follow up, how hot and buggy do you expect conditions to be in your summertime travels? I ask because the achilles' heel of WPB mountain tents in summer is they can be stifling when you need shelter from bugs and not the weather.

Something like a Bibler Ahwahnee with its two huge doors is one answer, as you'd get some ventilation on hot, still nights. You can also fit it with a vestible for winter. Tunnel style models, or wedges with one door and a puny back window or peak vent don't offer much relief.

Cheers,

... and to agree completely with rick here - in my experience in order to have one tent "do it all" I end up making a awful lot of comprimises, either on bombproofness and durability for something to be above the treeline in a snowstorm in, or I end up carrying two to three times the weight I need to and be in something that is, well, kinda stifling, or heavy, or both.

I know there'll be some that disagree, but I'd rather have a good lightweight 3 season shelter, and a no holds barred bombproof mountains in winter type thing than try to make one do it all.

Why would a tent such as an I.D.MKI-XL, with a fully open, screened doorway plus, if wanted, a second one, a bit smaller, also screened, in the opposite end, plus twin roof vents, be muggy if all venting is wide open? The muggy weather so often found in the "Boreal Forest" of northern Alberta is going to be as muggy, no matter WHAT tent you choose...as living there, alone, in the bush for four months in 1993, taught me.

I see little point in spending a lot of money on a "3-season" shelter for someone who is not going to use it that frequently, when one tent that WILL handle all weather and safely at under 5 lbs. can be obtained.

Is there some secret to double-wall tents I have missed in owning-using four different SW tents since G/T tents were introduced by Early Winters in 1977? I would think that the problem is that those and I am one, who find very warm weather unpleasant will do so in ANY tent and a good mountain-suitable one is no different in this respect from other models.

Whatever, the gentleman now has sufficient opinion posted that he can choose for himself.

One reason for two separate tents is that the 3-season tent will weigh 2 lbs. or less. For some of us that 3 lbs. might make the difference whether or not we can carry a backpack!

I still suggest that OP take a close look at the Tarptent Scarp, which can be 3-season or 4-season for the price of the extra poles needed for winter and both a solid and a netting liner (using the netting for summer and the solid for winter). That's the best of both worlds! I would get one if I camped in winter!

“I see little point in spending a lot of money on a "3-season" shelter for someone who is not going to use it that frequently, when one tent that WILL handle all weather and safely at under 5 lbs. can be obtained.”

Maybe another way to put it--
It is not uncommon to have 2 tents:
1. The 4.999 lb 4 season tent for known occasions.
2. The 1.5lb 3+ season tent for all other occasions. This is the one The Lightweight Backpacker will grab 99% of the time. It cannot be helped. The lower weight is addictive. The smaller pack size is addictive. This tent is also cheaper than tent #1 but should last just as long. It is trusted because it is proven ‘3+ season’ storm-worthy.

But if you buy that 76oz tent now, you will ALWAYS be wishing to have or try out that 24oz tent. AND I’m willing to bet the lightest tent will be used the most for backpacking.


-Barry

Yup, not to mention with careful shopping one can own both a 3-season and a winter/mountaineering tent for what one top-quality WPB tent costs. I've become very spoiled by the small, light package a Shires Tarptent offers from spring to fall (when I'm not hammocking or using a tarp of teepee). But I also don't have the discipline it takes to own just one tent. Back when I did, it was an EW Winterlite, which was great except for the aforementioned hot conditions (despite having full doors fore and aft) and heavy snow, when tunnel-style tent's aren't the best alternative. It's also five pounds--quite light at the time but easily bettered now.

Geek note: Gen 1 Goretex--which all GT tents were made of--was more breathable than several subsequent versions because they added a PU layer inside to prevent contamination of the PTFE layer and resulting wet-through. This was more of an issue with clothing than shelters. As long as you kept your tent clean it would continue to shed water.

Cheers,

Rick

Well, sure, if a person simply WANTS more than one tent, as I always do and have since the mid-'60s, I agree with all of you. I currently have A Hille.Soulo, and Saivo plus XP20 tarp, then I have a fully rigged I.D. MKI-XL, an I.D. Mega Sola and a fully rigged Kifaru 8-man tipi, plus bivies and tarps galore. Sooo, "discipline" ain't in it, for me!!!

The wonderful Early Winters "WinterLight", now THAT was a TENT!!!! I often had over a foot of wet B.C. snow on my little EW "Light Dimension" and it never failed me, EW made some of the finest gear I have ever seen and mine certainly did far more than one would expect.

My concern here is to simply state that IF the original poster WANTS "ONE" tent, then I prefer a tent suitable for winter to make certain that I have what I need in the kinds of situations we regularly encounter here in B.C. As I mentioned, that new RAB "Mountain Bivy" in EVENT impresses me as being one excellent choice, but, each to his own.

I have several tents that are "3 Season tents".

1. North Face Tadpole
2. REI Sololite
3. Eureka Wind River dome 3 man (actually a 4 season tent as well)
4. TarpTent Contrail

But I plan on selling #s 2 & 3 cheap, and buying the Scarp 2 at the end of summer. The Scarp 2 will, with the ripstop inner tent and extra crossing poles, be a great winter tent and with the netting inner tent do well for summer for my wife and I.

My Contrail, with its excellent 360 deg. netting ventilation, has no real condensation problems here in the western states. It's still my favorite solo tent for 3 seasons, and I have tried several other solo tents.

Eric

I was going to say Scarp 2 with both inners also.

I think climate is the biggest factor. I grew up in Michigan and remember how often it was either raining or muggy. I lived in Reno for the last 22 years and it hardly ever rains in the Sierras in the summer when I have the tent set up. The relative humidity is so low that condensation is not a problem if the tent is set up with ventilation. I have survived a few very heavy thunderstorms in my Tarptent Squall 2 at 11,000 feet. It is just important to be well staked out to handle the winds during the storm. I often pile rocks over the light stakes if the wind is going to blow. I camp high since I prefer scenic and windy over sheltered, damp and buggy.

Jeff

I am a big fan of tarps and single wall tents. Condensation problems are way over-rated. Weather causes condensation in all tents. My favorite single shelter is the Wild Oasis from Six Moon Designs. It takes six stakes, one pole, has plenty of room for one and gear inside and it has bug protection. Single wall tents dry very fast in sunlight.

For other lightweight tent options, check tents by Nemo.