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#106820 - 11/21/08 07:31 PM Some Single Wall Shelter Notes In Wet Weather
Carter Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 355
Loc: Missoula, MT
Four of us went to the Lochsa River in Idaho on a weekend perfectly suited to testing single-walled shelter performance: day time highs at 45, lows at night 35, heavy ground fog, camped next to a river, the ground totally soaked, no sun or breeze at all, 90 to 100 percent humidity according to a weather station one mile away. This was a car camping trip with a day hike to a hot springs and some trout fishing.

Here’s a photo of our armada: my new Nemo Moki in the foreground, a BD Megalight (our cooking/drinking shelter), and a BD Lighthouse in the background (sans vestibule).



It rained a total of .5 inch over 24 hours, most of that coming in moderate to heavy increments for periods of two hours at a time.

The Lighthouse (Epic-shelled, and seam-sealed) didn’t leak, and condensation with two people inside was tolerable: the fabric was moist, but there were no drips.

The Megalight (sil-nylon coating, seam-sealed) didn’t leak either, but condensation was copious on the inside—we cooked dinner inside with four people and the canopy fully-zipped. Still, the size of the Megalight makes it very easy to avoid the wet walls, and there were no drips.

Reviews of Nemo tents with the Osmo WP/B polyurethane coating cite the great breathability, so I was a little disappointed, but perhaps unnecessarily so. With two people inside, the covered roof vents open, and the main door under the vestibule completely open, the inside walls were damp: about the same as with the Lighthouse. There were no drips, but there were a few leaks because I took this straight out of the box without seam-sealing the points that Nemo says needs SeamGrip. But given the amount of rain, the leaks were relatively minor—and of course I’ll do the seam sealing soon enough. But looked at another way, the fully waterproof Moki did as well in condensation as the only water-resistant Lighthouse.



So no, nothing became wet inside the Nemo, but it’s a different experience than with Bibler or ID tents in the rain. The Nemo may actually have been more breathable than a Bibler or ID, but because the Nemo inner canopy is slick rather than paper towel fuzzy, the perception is that things are damper than they really are. Further experiments are in order: for example, it may actually have been drier in the Moki if all the doors were closed and only the upper vents left open.

The Moki’s closest competitor is the Bibler Bombshelter (see below for my GoreTex version made for the special forces).




The Moki is a more modern design, but the Bibler has its advantages. The Moki is easier to set-up, with less risk of poking a pole through the canopy or mosquito netting. With the Moki, you put up the two outer poles first, then get inside and do the two diagonal inner poles (which are unique in that the sections at the apex of the tent are larger than the other pole sections). However, you still have to go outside of the tent to attach the vestibule pole and the short cross-brace across the top. The inner pole attachments for the Moki use Velcro in a manner very similar to the Lighthouse—it’s far superior to the old bow tie Velcro used by Bibler, but not as easy or quick as the plastic twist clips Bibler now uses. The vestibule pole goes through a sleeve—much quicker and easier to set-up than Bibler’s Velcro attachments. The vestibule is made of sil-nyl, but it is fully seam-taped, a rarity for this type of fabric.

Although slightly narrower than a Bombshelter, the Moki is taller, and probably could be considered more spacious. The mesh pockets of the Moki are set up high and are far superior to the Bombshelter’s low hanging little sacks.

There are also several unusual fabric/design choices used in the Moki. You’ll note from the photos that the floor/canopy seam is at ground level (which usually results in the tautest pitch), but that coated floor material does not go up the side of the tent. Nemo obviously believes that the canopy is entirely waterproof. The outer face of the canopy is also made out of polyester rather nylon. Polyester doesn’t stretch as much as nylon when wet, and has better UV resistance. The feel of the canopy is silky rather than stiff like on Biblers. The floor is goes against traditional practice in that it is ripstop nylon rather than taffeta—Todd Bibler specifically warns against using ripstop for tent floors.

When staked but not guyed (we didn’t use guylines because there was no wind and some in our party weren’t used to walking around them at night), the Moki isn’t quite as taut as the Bombshelter. When guyed, the advantage still goes to the Bibler: there are no side guidelines on the Moki because of the big V-shaped windows.

One weak point of Bibler and BD tents has always been their stake loops: they aren’t adjustable, and the thin ribbon webbing is easily cut by sharp edged stakes (that’s why I’ve switched to Easton tubular stakes). On the Moki, the stake points are shock cord rings covered with a rubber-like substance, and the vestibule stake loops are adjustable with the usual ladder lock buckles. Of course, the best stake loops, and the heaviest, are the fully adjustable ones on MH Trango tents with the plastic clip for attaching the fly.

Where Bibler tents shine are with the inner doors—they open to the side, have three zipper pulls to allow for independent top and bottom venting, and you can open or close the fabric and mosquito netting doors at the same time—simply brilliant. In comparison, Nemo uses doors that zip to the floor (as with older TNF expedition tents). The two provided loops for securing the rolled door really don’t do much to keep things tidy. What would help would be a long pocket along the sill to hold the fabric and netting when not zipped up (I have an MEC expedition tent with this feature) or follow the example of Sierra Designs with their entirely circular door zipper and pockets on the side for stowing the door. But the bigger problem with doors that zip to the floor is that you really can’t create high/low venting. You can get the high just fine, but the low will just be a mere slit. And it’s not that Nemo didn’t try side-zip doors, the first edition of the Tenshi that I have (the eVent version) uses a waterproof zipper that opens to the side.

The main vestibule on the Bombshelter (and the Lighthouse) has a ridiculously small opening in the center for a door. The Moki gives you three options: either side or the center. But, there’s no way to vent the Moki vestibule in the rain: the door zippers all only have one slider that opens from the bottom. However, I’m not sure how useful a vestibule vent is, even when cooking underneath the thing: the inside of the vestibule is always wet even if there’s a big vent (such as on Biblers or TNF expedition tents), no vent but an upper zipper slider (MH Trangos), or nothing (the Moki).

On an earlier solo trip I was at the same spot in BD Skylight. That trip had more rain and periods of sustained 30 MPH winds, and the Skylight did just fine. Condensation was extensive but never dripped, the only leaks (the tent was seam-sealed) were at the side guy attachments), and it was remarkably stable and quiet in the wind. The Epic fabric does, however, attract and hold flying debris (note the pine needles in the photo below). I’ve also noticed on my friend’s Lighthouse that the exterior will wet out where he’s touched it with dirty hands.



Two of us also spent a rainy weekend at the same spot recently in a MN Trango 3.1 Arch. The inside of the fly was sopping, the inside of the inner canopy only moist up at the apex. But it takes forever to set-up this tent (seen below at the same spot in winter) compared to the Moki.



And here’s some of our breakfast (GSI hard anodized griddle with a Primus EF Gravity stove, which is very hot and very stable):



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#106821 - 11/21/08 08:02 PM Re: Some Single Wall Shelter Notes In Wet Weather [Re: Carter]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Great review Carter, thanks. For some reason, when I first looked at your post, the pics weren't loading, but now they are so if anyone has a problem, let us know.



Edited by TomD (11/21/08 08:07 PM)
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#106822 - 11/22/08 07:53 AM Re: Some Single Wall Shelter Notes In Wet Weather [Re: Carter]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
I was expected this big, air tube tent from Nemo. The first one I saw, had the inflatable corners.:) My BD Hilight looks like the Lighthouse, just narrower. I have condensation in it, but no drips. I found one spot on a seam I need to apply a dab of seam sealer, a bit of sealer pulled loose I guess. The trout look good, yum. I was out a week ago in my Hilight, no condensation, I was expecting some, however, I had the thing opened up pretty good and was at a good spot on the lake I guess. When I was hiking out, other locations had frost, but where the frost was, was in areas you would expect frost to set, in drainages to the lake where cold air funnels down from the mountain and is shaded from the sun more this time of the year. Thank you for the review and photos.

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#106823 - 11/22/08 10:13 AM Re: Some Single Wall Shelter Notes In Wet Weather [Re: Carter]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Hi Carter
Thanks for the test report. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I noticed a blue ground cloth poking out from under one tent. Do you normally use a ground cloth? Have you tested these tents without a ground cloth? It just seems to me to add extra weight and have little effect. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Years ago my buddy and I did some experimenting with ground cloths in the Winter. I have always felt that they are a negative. I always got wetter with them than without. So I always used a 2 ounce piece of super thin plastic under everything in my tent and I was dryer - no condensation from the floor on my gear. One trip my buddy decided to put his thin plastic under his tent on purpose just to check things out and his bag was so wet in the morning that we would have gone home only it was a sunny day and the bag dried hanging in the wind and sun. That night he moved the vapor barrier inside and enjoyed a dry night. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I never use and ground or vapor barrier anymore and I don't seem to get any condensation in my old Toddtex Bibler Eldorado. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The vestibule is not integral to the Eldorado, and I only use it when camped with a buddy so we have room to put our packs. Camped alone I slightly unzip the bottom of the door, which is heavily covered and protected by a flap, to allow a low air intake spot, and I leave the two zippered roof vents open all the time unless the wind is driving snow into one, then I only use the downwind vent. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The Eldorado is always bone dry except sometimes there is frost on the aluminum poles which are inside. One quick wipe with my towel and its gone. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> If I am camped with a buddy and the vestibule is on, we open the top of the door a bit to get some airflow in from the protected vestibule. We rarely get any snow blown in. Vestibules protect the door and are often a real help in keeping a good airflow, especially if the top of the vestibule door will unzip and lay over creating a 1-3 inch high, foot wide vent into the vestibule, and the same arrangement in the inner tent door. This way any snow blowing into the vestibule will stop there whereas the air will come through.

Often when I camp alone in the winter, I'll take my Bibler hanging stove and light it up hanging from the crossed poles at the apex of the tent. I then melt snow and make breakfast INSIDE the tent. When I do this I open the top of the door also so there is a crack for air high and low on the door and the roof vents. The pot will be steaming, the burner on high, pumping over 10,000 BTU of heat into the tent. I then sit in my long underwear in the warm tent and "dry out". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The point is - I do not get condensation in the winter even while melting snow inside the tent because there is enough heat to drive the moisture right out. AND I always feel confident that I can press the bag against the side of the tent and it will not pick up ANY moisture from the contact. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think a lot of the "breathable" single walled tents perform about as well as the old canvas tents in a rain - OK if they are large enough that you don't touch the side or it may drip. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Forgive me for repeating myself but I have a TNF MTN 24 tent - excellent round doors on each end with independent zips for mesh and nylon doors, nice integral vestibule. Besides my Eldorado, this is the best driest 4 season tent I've ever used. It is always dry, vents extremely well, and is quiet in a wind and strong under snow drifts. I loaned it to two buddies once, I camped next to them in the Eldorado and in the morning they were both drenched along with all of their gear. What the difference was had to operator Error. TomD and I used the same tent for two nights in a storm in Yosemite and it was completely dry. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#106824 - 11/22/08 09:05 PM Re: Some Single Wall Shelter Notes In Wet Weather [Re: Carter]
bmisf Offline
member

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 629
And I thought *I* had too many tents... :-)

Great post, Carter - really enjoyed it. I've not seen the SF version of the Bombshelter before, and have only seen the Moki at the Winter OR show, so it was great to get a real-world report on how it does.

I have two Hilleberg tents (and a Bibler Tempest) I'd be interested to put in the same conditions, side by side with the tents you wrote up here, to see how they handled the condensation.

I imagine the Tempest would be about the same as the Bombshelter, so it's the Hillebergs that would particularly interest me, since unlike the other tents they're both double-wall. I've found them pretty good overall in regards to moisture, though sometimes I get extensive condensation on the inside of the floors in winter (almost to the extent where it could be water seeping through the fabric, though that seems unlikely). Have you used any of their tents?

I vastly prefer the way the Hillebergs set up (poles outside, both inner and outer go up at once) to the inside poles of the Biblers - how about you? I had the poles in the Tempest get bent and damaged when setting it up one time in a ferocious storm; there's just not enough stability until all the poles are in place (whereas with the Hillebergs, you can stake out the head of the tent, put the poles in place, then clip from the ground up; it works really well in a storm.

The Hillebergs have similar doors to the Biblers - they open to the side and the zipper actually goes all the way around except for a small attachment point; you can stuff the doors into a side pocket of the tent and they're completely out of the way. The vestibules also have three- or four-way zippers, with lots of possible combinations for venting and egress.

Here's my Saivo near Lassen Peak:



And here's my Jannu at Yellowstone:



And, finally, the Tempest, near Carson Pass in the central Sierra Nevada:


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