Hello Everyone,

I currently have a GoLite Poncho Tarp (Silnylon, 8 ft 8 in x 4 ft 10 in, 10.44oz on my scales), window insulation film as a ground sheet (1.10oz) and a Marmot Helium (16F, 31.82oz) or Atom (43F 21.52oz). I'm 5 feet 9 inches tall.

I do not use a bivy with my down bags and I haven't gotten wet.

My question is.... am I asking for trouble? Most other gear lists w/ poncho/tarps have lightweight or partial bivys included. I have slept through a decent rain storm or two, staying dry in A-frame pitch. But it's also relatively cramped under my little poncho/tarp, and I'm worried I'll get bit eventually. (I tried pitching in a half-pyramid for more protection in backyard, but was even more cramped length-wise and had trouble keeping it taught)

I am contemplating going lighter with Cuben Fiber products (solo tarp, poncho/tarp, bivy, pack) to lighten up.

If a bivy is recommended with an 8 ft 8 in x 4 ft 10 in poncho/tarp, I'll probably start weighing the pros/weights of a larger CF tarp vs. smaller tarp and bivy....or if there is a larger CF poncho/tarp than my current one.

Thanks for the advice. Currently sitting at ~8lbs base weight

I know a highly experienced 60+ year old guy and he thought the poncho was a tight squeeze and he really shaves the weight. Up to you. I like more room and more protection. Kinda hard to leave the shelter to do anything and stay dry.

It depends entirely on you, your skills at pitch and site selection, and how good you do in a cramped space. I have sat out nasty thunderstorms under an 5x8 tarp ( actually a poncho:
http://www.integraldesigns.com/product_detail.cfm?id=728 )
- no bivy, just my sleeping bag on blue pad and a painters tarp. I knew the storm was coming, got a reasonable spot and pitched the tarp nice and low. (a frame) I didn't get wet. Having said that this was on a 3 night trip I did this way "just to see" - you can do it, and if you are comfortable doing it - awesome - save the weight.

I wasn't that comfortable doing it - the tarp was pitched low enough I couldn't sit up. getting dressed in the morning underneath it was like an ungraceful ballet of a fat walrus with a pair of hiking pants.. (fortunately for the potential spectators I don't think anyone had to see).

By the time I would have to put a bivy with a tarp, I take my little tent (23 oz) which doesn't need a bivy and I can sit up in, or for my mind I take this:

http://www.integraldesigns.com/product_detail.cfm?id=823

which is genuinely 12 oz, (I have one) and is much more forgiving to pitch in a way you won't get wet and can sit up in it.

but if you can be comfortable under a storm pitched aframe 5x8, that's awesome..do that.

I think I'm more lucky (there was no wind, rain came straight down) than skilled/comfortable with it. And I totally know what you are saying about being cramped with pitching an A-frame low.

I'd lean towards a larger tarp in Cuben Fiber, as it'd give me more flexibility to stay dry while doing other things with the tarp, not just sleep with the bivy.

It'd definitely be lighter, but then I'd have to add weight back for a dedicated rain jacket (currently carry 4oz DWR-coated wind jacket to supplement poncho).

See my dilemma? :p I guess I'd love a Cuben Fiber Poncho/Tarp that is just larger than my current silnylon poncho/tarp. I'd get all the coverage benefits a larger tarp, but still keep the weight benefits combining my rain jacket with tarp. Are there any out there?

If I can't find one, I suppose I'd have to opt for the bivy and Cuben Fiber poncho/tarp to (hopefully) realize some weight benefits over my current Silnylon poncho/tarp and windshell w/ DWR.

Just for me, if my base weight were only 8 lbs. I wouldn't be worrying (it's currently 12 and I've decided to be happy with it). At some point you need to analyze the dollars per ounce of weight reduction and decide whether the large amount of dollars (if you go to cuben fiber) for, at most, two less ounces weight saving is really worth it.

Been there, looked wistfully at cuben, did the calculations, decided that the few ounces wasn't worth the very large $$$ expenditure.

I also looked at tarp (spinnaker, since I can't afford cuben) plus bivy plus tent plus a bug net big enough for both me and my dog, and discovered that the total weighs an ounce more than my current tent! The only way I can save significant weight is to use the tarp only after the bugs are gone so I don't need a net, and use it without a bivy (probably OK because with the dog I need a double-size tarp).

As for the poncho tarp, I'd test it in horizontal rain (or perhaps create the equivalent with a garden hose) before deciding to risk not using a bivy. Remember that with your raingear (poncho) as your shelter, you can't go outside the shelter without getting wet. There are also issues of your pack's getting wet after you take it off and before you get the poncho tarp set up. Only you can decide whether these risks are acceptable for you.

In my opinion, its dumb luck that you haven't had issues yet. I used to be a tarp guy, until last year. Now I own a Gossamer Gear The One tent, and I can't wait to take it out. But, here's the story of the night from hell...

I was backpacking with my 11 year old son plus another dad and his son. It was early June and we were in the Pike National Forest in the Colorado Rocky's at around 10,000 feet. It was the first trip of the year, and since we had our sons we were taking it easy. We hiked about 2 miles and set up camp.

I proceeded to break up some firewood, caveman style, over a large rock. During one of the swings, the log slipped, bounced off the rock, and hit my left thumb. It dislocated my thumb at the base and tore every ligament at that joint. It required surgery and I was out for the rest of the season. But, back to the story...

I popped the bone back in, did the appropriate stuff and consulted the other Dad. I decided to tough it out for the night and see how it goes. Occasionally the joint would simply dislocate on it's own and I'd pop it back in.

My son and I were sleeping under a 10x8 foot tarp. He had an REI Goretex Bivy. I had a super lightweight DWR bivy. Our groundsheets were tyvek sheets. The tarp was pitched in an A-Frame with the sides about 6-8 inches off of the ground. I happened to bring another 8x5 foot tarp, which I used to close off the "head" end but it wasn't a great seal with the main tarp.

All was well (except the thumb) until about midnight. A massive storm hit. Torrential rain, biblical hail, and massive wind. The rain flowed off the tarp and formed puddles. Marble sized hail hit the puddles, splashing us in the face, and bouncing under the tarp. We had lots of hail land between the sleeping bags! Enough rain fell that small rivers were flowing under the ground sheets.

During the storm, I tried best I could to keep things under control and dry. There was too much rain to go out and re-pitch the tarp to have the edges all the way to the ground. If I tried I would have been soaked in seconds. During the storm, my thumb dislocated at least 12 more times-- each resulting in a small scream from me. About 2.5 hours later the storm passed.

The next morning it looked like winter. "Hail Drifts" over a foot deep in spots. We packed up and hiked out. We got to the car around noon and the ground was still covered in hail.

The lessons that I learned are:

1. Always assume a storm is coming and pitch the tarp accordingly. Even though the sky is cloudless, a storm can sneak up on your before you have a chance to react.

2. A 10x8 foot tarp is cramped for 2 people in a storm. If it's pitched in an A-Frame with the sides all the way down to the ground then it's really only a 1-person tarp-- especially in a huge downpour where you are moving stuff around to keep it from getting wet.

3. Don't break up wood caveman style.

-DK

I actually find I'm pretty good with just a DWR windshell in most places - I might get a bit wet, but can stay warm enough with appropriate underlayer to me comfortable. if it really opens up I just pitch the tarp and wait (or find a good spruce tree - or both)

The other alternative is to dual use your poncho and take a small tarp, but build your shelter out of *both*. takes more doing, but with an overlap on top you could set them up shelter-half style and have plenty of room (effectively an 8x10 tarp). more fiddling than I'm generally willing to do though, and frankly, I get down to 9 pounds and a bit carrying a full on lightweight tent, dwr windshirt and poncho.

Gossamer Gear should have some 4oz silnylon anoraks, expensive but good. I have a Gram Weinie one when they still had a store. I used mine in AK in 2009 for a couple days, I got some wetness, but I'm sure from sweat. I thought I had left mine in AK, maybe had rolled under the bunk bed the morning we packed up, but I had hung it up to thoroughly dry when I got home and found it still there months later. Happy, happy.

It's doable, but could be unpleasant. In particularly bad conditions you will have trade off sleeping against staying dry. Personally, I would rather carry a few more ounces in exchange for getting a good night sleep. If you use a sleeping bag that I would recommend a larger tarp rather than a bivy. If you use a quilt, the bivy might make good sense because the added wind protection can be very nice.

I have a few notes and links to a number of articles are using small tarps on my recommended shelters page.

--Mark

Nice compilation! Reminds me of a PhD dissertation. It's going to take me a week just to get through it.

Due to major injuries due to a motorcycle accident a few years ago, I'm definitely looking to shed weight overall. Out of my big three my Marmot Helium @ ~32oz seems to be the fatty in my list.

Ideally I'd like to go with cuben fiber poncho/tarp w/ lightweight bivy, quilt and polycro sheet.

What is left to research is the whole bivy/quilt thing in terms of how the bivy helps w/ drafts (I am side sleeper who turns a lot) and a quilt and condensation worries me in the bivy. Perhaps research vapor barriers as well.

Tarptent? MSR Carbon Reflex? More comfortable if it's going to rain all night and day.

Vapor barriers aren't going to be comfortable. I'd only consider one well below freezing, say, in the teens or below. Don't see the point in being clammy and sweaty and uncomfortable, thus unable to sleep. I use a tarp and hammock, or a tarptent, or just my nice large tarp, no bivy, and a down quilt, with nary an issue.

http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/gear/clothing.html#VaporBarrier

this mirrors my experience as well. I've also not found a bivy/tarp combo that is actually lighter than either just a bigger tarp, or a tarptent style tent, both of which mean I don't need the bivy

I would agree, that it may be difficult to find a bivy/tarp that is lighter than just a bigger tarp, but where I see potential savings is:

bigger CF tarp
sleeping bag (no quilt because I toss and turn)
rain jacket
rain pants

vs.
MLD CF poncho/tarp
ultralight bivy
quilt (I can rock this because bivy helps w/ drafts, and not only quilt lighter by design, I've read a bivy adds degrees to quilt as well)
wind shirt
MLD Spectralite rain chaps

Thoughts?

My thought is, I toss and turn, so much so that I have walked the sleeping pad several inches askew, and use a quilt, and am not bothered overmuch by drafts. Once I was used to using the quilt I was/am fine. Use a quilt of appropriate width and it's not a problem.

In the past I have used a driducks poncho as an overcover for the quilt. It was actually colder that way - my warmth was not making it all the way through the down to warm the air pockets between the quilt shell and the poncho. When I moved, as was inevitable, the poncho moved, and shoved cold air through the quilt. I have a JRB with a DWR shell and 2.5 inches of loft.

Lori, does your quilt attach to your sleeping pad, or wrap around it in any way to minimize drafts?

My ray-way homemade quilt had "draft stoppers" which was just extra outer shell material draped along the sides of the quilt, but that didn't help me with drafts.

I have a ray way with draft stoppers, and a JRB without that's about the same size, and have no issues with drafts until it's really really cold. But I can use the draw cord on the JRB to cinch down the neck end.

As I said, you need an appropriate sized quilt - if the ray way doesn't work you might want one of the larger JRB models, or get another ray way kit and cut it larger.

I don't attach it to the pad. That would defeat the purpose of the quilt - I moved to quilts because I hated feeling closed in and pinned down.

If it were hot out and I needed to regulate myself through the night, I would not tie down the quilt underneath the pad either, but when it get's colder, I certainly want a better way to seal off the drafts than the ray way did for me.

Bryce,

I have extensive experience (not all of it good) doing what you propose.

First of all, my set-up weighs a total of 24 oz. There are good solo tents that weigh less. I continue to use mine out of familiarity and habit rather than out of closely reasoned decision. My poncho and bivy are both MLD (love Ron's work; also have his pack). The poncho is slightly oversize (his design allows for that), and is syl. I could probably get the set-up an ounce or two under tent weight by going Cuban, but, even after a thru-hike, my gear is in very good condition and the replacement cost would be scary (probably more than just buying the tent). Besides, my base weight is 8.5 lbs, and I'm comfortable with that, even for very long trips.

I usually set up the poncho "Baker Pitch" (lean-to) or in the half-pyramid (which I can do in a couple of minutes), and either way I get good protection while being able to sit up and avoid Phat-like dressing performances. I have very rarely had serious problems with either, but the Baker requires serious thought about site and direction.

I do use a 4-oz (or so -- all my imperial weights are conversions) DWR windshirt for out-of-shelter errands, and so far, with Phat, I've been a bit damp, but I've always been able to get back into the sleeping bag OK.

One experience stands out. Pulled into camp in gathering storm and found shelter full. Pitched my poncho A-frame, tight to the ground. Wind howled, flung whole buckets of water against the sides, and then froze much of the water. I was fine, but had to pull a stake to get in and out, and clothing was a real Ballanchine number. Unfortunately, I did have an audience, but they were too wet and cold (in tents) to really care.

Good luck, best jcp

I decided to purchase a JRD Sierra Stealth quilt (40F):
http://www.jacksrbetter.com/Wearable%20Quilts.htm#SierraStealth

It weighs less than my 40F sleeping bag and also saves additional weight by replacing my insulating layer (Down sweater).

I've also purchased a Bear Paw Cub Den 1.5in CF:
http://www.bearpawwd.com/tents_tarps/cubden.html

It is lighter than my old golite poncho and provides better coverage (hoping it has enough coverage not to need a bivy).

I'll be choosing a rain jacket to replace my Montane Featherlite smock now that that is no longer needed to supplement the poncho. The rain jacket will probably be a bit heavier, but not much. Even a DriDucks rain jacket would work.

We shall see!