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#118414 - 07/17/09 11:22 AM ten dead in Japan - too thin of jackets
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
ten senior citizen "climbers", 9 with organised trips, died of hypothermia recently. "Too thin of jackets and slightly cooler than normal temps" were to blame.

This brings me to the subject of "summit packs". Many modern campers who are already arguably toeing the line of inadequate clothing and equipment, seem to have this idea that they should have a sub 5 pound summit pack. Besides now carrying the extra weight of a spare small pack while hiking in, you cannot get a real coat or sleeping bag in these quote "summit packs". and even using them as a sit pad is marginal.

If you have good luck, no injuries, make it up and back in daylight and warm etc etc, OK, BUT if anything goes wrong and you bivy with inadequate insulation - well consider the fate of those mentioned above.

Whats the moral? Carry your normal backpack with all of your gear when you go up - you will probably need more gear the higher you go - why leave it below - EXCEPT - modern campers are not in good enough condition to climb with a full pack, even a light weight one. Theres a great difference between traveling light and traveling stupid.

Get into better shape.
Carry appropriate gear.
Do not leave your gear behind - what if you got lost.
Carry your GPS with you and know where you are going.
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#118415 - 07/17/09 11:26 AM Re: ten dead in Japan - too thin of jackets [Re: Jimshaw]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Sounds like a good reason to carry a light pack. Then you don't have to ditch it just to summit.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#118419 - 07/17/09 11:43 AM Re: ten dead in Japan - too thin of jackets [Re: finallyME]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
finallyme

"Then you don't have to ditch it just to summit."
_______________________________________________________
Thats exactly what I'm talking about - no one has to ditch their pack to summit because of weight - only because of attitude or conditioning. Ditching your gear to summit IS A VERY BAD IDEA. VERY BAD - it kills people. Its this preoccupation with not carrying gear that has infiltrated the minds of modern camper campers. BE PREPARED has become, Carry a spot so you can be rescued if you leave your gear behind and get into trouble.

Climbers have a very different idea of carrying gear to summit. Real climbers are not the ones who are rescued, its backpackers who think summits are fun places to go with no gear OR EXPERIENCE, that die up there, or need rescue.
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#118423 - 07/17/09 12:59 PM Re: ten dead in Japan - too thin of jackets [Re: Jimshaw]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Jim:

I can't speak to climbing and summiting; I hike in the eastern US, so the highest "peak" I've summited is about 5,000 feet (if you count the 70 feet of trees on top.)

However, I'd expand your advice to include general backpacking. I've always had great skepticism about moving out of eyeshot of my backpack, whether it's to do a little bushwhacking or dayhiking, or even just to trot down the little side trail to get water. (I think Colin Fletcher was also somewhat paranoid about this.) I always figured that keeping my pack with me pretty well eliminated the chances of critters (including the two-footed kind) making off with gear, and gave me a little insurance that, if I got injured on that little side trip, I'd be able to stay warm, dry, and fed until help came. It also eliminates the chance that someone will decide to become an instant geologist and start his rock collection in my pack. (Nor would I ever think of doing that to anyone else grin )

Especially with the light loads most of us carry nowadays, I heartily second the advice: always keep your pack with you; it might come in handy.


Edited by Glenn (07/17/09 01:01 PM)

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#118424 - 07/17/09 01:06 PM Re: ten dead in Japan - too thin of jackets [Re: Jimshaw]
Pika Online   content
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1814
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
When I was in the Army one of the enlisted mens "ten commandments" was "never get separated from your personal gear". I let that happen once and quickly learned the wisdom underlying the saying. I later extended that idea to my backpacking and mountaineering. I never went on a climb without being prepared to bivouac. Twice when I had to spend the night on a peak, the extra gear saved my bacon. You may not be comfortable in a minimal bivouac but you can survive.
_________________________
May I walk in beauty.

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#118446 - 07/17/09 07:55 PM Re: ten dead in Japan - too thin of jackets [Re: Jimshaw]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By Jimshaw
ten senior citizen "climbers", 9 with organised trips, died of hypothermia recently. "Too thin of jackets and slightly cooler than normal temps" were to blame.


Links? All of the articles I've seen on this so far said the cause(s) of death were undetermined. The weather was bad but all the facts are not in yet.
_________________________
If you only travel on sunny days you will never reach your destination.*

* May not apply at certain latitudes in Canada and elsewhere.

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#118489 - 07/19/09 08:50 PM Re: ten dead in Japan - too thin of jackets [Re: finallyME]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
See my thread on summiting a local 11,930 ft. mountain. My buddy and I camped within 3 miles of the summit the night before. In the morning I ditched (cached) my pack out of sight and carried a small daypack/stuffsack REI Flash because I knew my main pack was only 3 miles from the summit.

That said I DID carry a survival kit W. a space blanket, 2 liters of water, gloves, food, stocking cap and GTX parka (which I had to wear near the summit).

OK, it was a very short summit dash in the morning of a summer day in southern Nevada. Even so temps were 40s F. with 25 - 30 mph. winds. For a REAL summit attempt, say on a fourteener in the Sierra Nevada or Colorado I'd take my 2,500 cu. in. winter backcountry skiing daypack with more clothes, food and shelter gear. It's all in understanding the "Worst Case Scenario" and preparing for it.

Clearly Japanese hike leaders did not exercise due diligence in checking participants' gear before starting a climb. They were at least as much at fault as the climbers, whether they were paid professionals or experienced volunteers.

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#118491 - 07/19/09 09:31 PM Re: ten dead in Japan - too thin of jackets [Re: 300winmag]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
Eric's example is one case where a summit pack is entirely appropriate, safe and actually preferable. I recently climbed Mt. Shasta with a summit pack and given the specific conditions of that trip I felt perfectly safe. Carrying all of my equipment on that climb would have slowed me down considerably and compromised my balance on class 3 rock and steep, icy slopes. Yeah, I could have prepared for absolutely any possibility by carrying 50 pounds but doesn't mountaineering involve a degree of risk?

The safe use of a summit pack depends entirely on the conditions e.g. current weather, weather forecast, time/distance/elevation gain to the top, fitness level, experience level, etc. etc. I have successfully used one myself on many occasions. In many cases it is just not necessary to schlep ALL of your stuff all the way the summit.

As always YMMV.
_________________________
If you only travel on sunny days you will never reach your destination.*

* May not apply at certain latitudes in Canada and elsewhere.

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#118589 - 07/21/09 10:51 PM Re: ten dead in Japan - too thin of jackets [Re: Pika]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
Pika,

The Army advice was good in most situations but even combat infantrymen have to sometimes drop their backpack and use only the butt pack (lid) of their backpack for assaults, tough climbs, etc.

It's all a judgement call in the end but a survival kit should be with you at ALL times to give you a fighting chance in an accident, bad weather, or being lost.

Eric

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#118725 - 07/25/09 02:32 PM Re: ten dead in Japan - too thin of jackets [Re: Glenn]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
When I taught mountaineering at NOLS, we required every student to bivouac with thier peak summit gear (in a controled condition, so if they got really cold we brought them their sleeping bags). You do not sleep, but you learn what clothing it takes to survive. Taking all your gear to the summit is not practical. There are special light weight heat blankets (survival blankets)you can use. Why do people "guess" at what they need instead of actaully practice bivouacking? I am the "Queen of Bivouac" - spent over a dozen nights caught up on moutain peaks.

Now every time I do a day hike from my backpack base, I always assume I will have to spend the night out and take enough clothing and food. In a backpacking situation, the more critical item is always keeping track of your last water source. I also am always looking at surroundings and judging them as suitable bivouac sites. Like "wouldn't it be cozy under that tree?"

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