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#92618 - 03/14/08 04:02 PM Pack manufacturers -- are you listening?
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
I am in the market for a new pack. I went to REI today when it was nearly empty and brought in my current pack with everything I would take on a 10-day trip. I then tried several packs. One requirement is that my new Bear-i-Kade cannister had to fit inside the pack. I have the "weekender" which is the smaller Bear-i-Kade, yet I can stuff 8-9 days food in it.

It was a real dilema since the proper size pack for me is a woman's small. The only light weight pack that both fit me and the bear cannister (horizontally on top) was the Gregory Jade, woman's medium - but it still lacked the capacity I need. The men's medium Z-55 was better - everything fit - but it does not fit me! The men's "regular" Granite Gear Vapor could accomodate the bear cannister but was way to big for me and I thought it was really "fussy" and had a weird top. There was no small size to try. As much as I liked the Osprey packs, the cannister would only fit in sitting vertically up - leaving no room for the rest of my gear. Another interesting observation was that each pack can vary as much as an inch (circumfrance of the top opening) within the same model! That inch made the difference of getting the bear cannister sitting horizontally or not.

I want a 3,500 cubic inch capacity pack, under 3 pounds, that I can place my bear cannister in horizontally, and that comfortably carries up to 40 pounds total pack weight. A 3,000 cubic inch capacity is fine for a 10-day trip IF you do not have to use a bear cannister, but insufficient with the cannister. And yes, the bigger packs work, but I do not want a 6 pound pack. And I would rather not have to pay $500 for it!

So here is my question. With the prevelance of bear cannister requirements, why dont the pack manufacturers simply size the packs to accomdate a bear cannister? It would only take a few more inches top circumfrence. If you simply strap the cannister under the lid, it is not very stable. When there is 10-15 pounds of food in the cannister it shifts quite eaily if it is not within the pack itself.

It irks me that I have to pay $200+ for a pack then get out my scissors, cut it up and re-design it myself.

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#92619 - 03/14/08 04:30 PM Re: Pack manufacturers -- are you listening? [Re: wandering_daisy]
bigfoot2 Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Eugene , Oregon
How about an ...."gasp"....EXTERNAL FRAME ? I regularly use an old Jansport external when i am the family sherpa and it only weights about 3.10 lbs with a 4500 cu. inch capacity. It's not very fashionable, but it carries great and is reliably comfortable. It has a bag bar shelf on top that you could lash a canister to, no problem. Lash your bag underneath in a waterproof stuff sack. Check out this smaller person model at Campmor :

http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores...memberId=125002

Wish you luck in your search!

BF <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Hammockers aren't stuck up, they're just above it all.

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#92620 - 03/14/08 04:35 PM Re: Pack manufacturers -- are you listening? [Re: bigfoot2]
Mattress Offline
member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 109
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
For the price of an off-the-shelf pack, you could probably get an ultralight pack custom made for your needs. Check out some of the manufacturers like Mountain Laurel Designs or Gossamer Gear, for example.
_________________________
http://lighterload.blogspot.com/

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#92621 - 03/14/08 04:56 PM Re: Pack manufacturers -- are you listening? [Re: wandering_daisy]
leadfoot Offline
member

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 954
Loc: Virginia
Would Granite Gear's Ki series for women work for you? They have two styles, and come in short torsos as well. I think the Nimbus is built to carry heavier weights.

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#92622 - 03/14/08 08:41 PM Re: Pack manufacturers -- are you listening? [Re: bigfoot2]
StepChld Offline
member

Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Garland, Texas
Quote:
How about an ...."gasp"....EXTERNAL FRAME ? I regularly use an old Jansport external when i am the family sherpa and it only weights about 3.10 lbs with a 4500 cu. inch capacity. It's not very fashionable, but it carries great and is reliably comfortable. It has a bag bar shelf on top that you could lash a canister to, no problem. Lash your bag underneath in a waterproof stuff sack. Check out this smaller person model at Campmor :

http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores...memberId=125002

Wish you luck in your search!

BF <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Actually that's a 3850 ci, not 4500. And it weighs one ounce more than what you said, but... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> It is a very good pack! Borrowed one for my son for a Scout weekend. He really wanted an internal frame (cause it's "cool") but he really liked that one after using it...and for $50, well if he grows out of it, then I can donate it to the troop w/o breaking my bank!
_________________________
Never moon a werewolf

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#92623 - 03/14/08 08:46 PM Re: Pack manufacturers -- are you listening? [Re: wandering_daisy]
Hector Offline
member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 325
Loc: LA/ARK/TX corner
Take a look at ULA? I ordered one recently and am very impressed. I know Bearpaw and BillStephenson also like theirs (I solicited their opinions before ordering mine). The packs are specifically made to hold bear canisters horizontally. The Catalyst should fit your bill, but take a look and talk to Brian if you're interested.

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#92624 - 03/14/08 09:06 PM Re: Pack manufacturers -- are you listening? [Re: wandering_daisy]
Paul Offline
member

Registered: 09/30/02
Posts: 778
Loc: California
Do you find it comfortable with the canister lying down? In my pack I find it more comfortable with the canister ( currently Bearvault) standing up. It could be the manufacturers are agreeing with me - or it could be they are just missing it, wouldn't be the first time. The last pack I made, which was intended to be both my ski trip pack and the "papa bear" unit, I made big enough in circumference to take the canister lying down, but then I found that to be uncomfortable so I never pack it that way.
Have you considered making your own?

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#92625 - 03/15/08 12:13 AM Re: Pack manufacturers -- are you listening?(note) [Re: wandering_daisy]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
Daisy,

I solved my Garcia bear canister carry problem by using Gorilla duct tape (split to the correct width) to tape two REI 1" D rings on each side of the cannister.

The D rings are taped with two layers of Gorilla tape about 6" apart and about 3" in from the cannister ends. This allows me to use REI shorter (say 18") 3/4" wide pre-made Fastex buckled nylon webbing to the put through the D rings on top of the pack lid. You can tailor this spacing to your pack needs.

When I described this in an earlier thread some smart @ss suggested a bear will use the D rings to carry the can away. Very, VERY doubtful. More likely a flying pig will snatch it first.

Eric

P.S. Daisy, I noticed you said that taping D rings on a cannister "adds weight".

I suppose if you are that concerned about the weight of some duct tape and 4 plastic D rings you wouldn't want to add the extra weight of a larger pack. My suggestion: Just carry it under your arm. You can change sides when one arm tires.

E


Edited by 300winmag (03/15/08 11:27 AM)

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#92626 - 03/15/08 05:01 AM Re: Pack manufacturers -- are you listening? [Re: bigfoot2]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
I have quite a few packs, external frame, internal frame, frameless.. I grew up with an external frame. You are right they are not very fashionable. I wonder how much that plays into the popularity of the internals. I also wonder how many are able to admit they chose an internal due to the "look" of an external. For any weight over 20lbs, I find my external frame to be much more comfortable than my internal. It looks like I am an el-cheapo backpacker, which of course I am. The external also provides more ventialtion between my back and the pack in the hot months. Of course, if I am bushwhacking I need the slimmer/lower profile of the internal to navigate the blowdown and undergrowth. On a well maintained trail, nothing beats an external unless fashion matters. Different packs for different uses. Oh, my external set-up is under 3lbs. I attach my frameless FF pack (9.5oz) to a stripped down aluminum frame,with shoulder pads an d hipbelt. The total weight is 35ozs.

Sorry for the threadjack. But so I am not so off topic, the external is extremely easy to lash a bear cannister to. If done right, it can easily be removed as a quick seat.

I am still trying to figure out a way to modify another external frame to be able to be used as a camp table! If anyone has some ideas I'd love to hear them.
_________________________
http://ducttapeadk.blogspot.com

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#92627 - 03/15/08 07:56 AM Re: Pack manufacturers -- are you listening? [Re: bigfoot2]
coyotemaster Offline
member

Registered: 03/07/06
Posts: 294
Loc: Arizona
Quote:
Check out this smaller person model at Campmor :

http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores...memberId=125002



Bigfoot2, those are nice packs. I bought some for my kids at Christmas, but, the frame is curved which makes strapping on my bearvaults so they don't wobble a little difficult, I've found.

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#92628 - 03/15/08 08:13 AM Re: Pack manufacturers -- are you listening? [Re: wandering_daisy]
Keith Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 1667
Loc: Michigan's Upper Peninsula
The LuxuryLite meets your parameters. Bruce (Valcour on this board) will give you a 30 day trial. My wife and I both like our LL's.

http://www.luxurylite.com/packindex.html
_________________________
Human Resources Memo: Floggings will continue until morale improves.

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#92629 - 03/15/08 09:32 AM Re: Pack manufacturers -- are you listening? [Re: wandering_daisy]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
Thanks for all the suggestions. To answer a few:

I already use an external frame Kelty pack for long trips where I have to carry more than 40 pounds or have to take climbing gear, etc. The Kelty simply is over-kill for 5-7 day trips.

Setting the bear cannister upright on top the sleeping bag takes up entirly all the pack volume in a men's medium pack let alone a women's small pack. Plus the long rigid edge is very uncomfortable because most of the pack then cannot contour to your back. A bear cannister full of food must be centered or it will tilt you. The room left on either side simply is not the right shape for pots, stove, and other rigid objects. I have done this before when I only needed my bivy sack, but once I need a tent it does not work.

Taping D-rings on a bear cannister adds to weight. Since I spent $$$ to get a light bear cannister, it kind of defeats the purpose. The NPS regulators also can technically cite you for altering the design - and this invalidates the "approval". Now I do not know if any ranger would be that picky, but I suspect there are a few overzealous ones out there.

Those of you who use medium to large men's packs, just take a look at a women's small and see just how little space they have! I have spent my lifetime wearing ill-fitting packs simply to get capacity! I do not think we small women who solo backpack are enough of a market to intice manufacturers to design us something specific. I think they assume some big guy with a monstor pack will go with us to carry our bear cannister or the other gear our bear cannister replaces! Only in our dreams!

A bear cannister loaded with food is about 15 pounds. Some theoretically good solutions often just do not work because with that weight it must be centered, stable and as close to your center of gravity as possible to comfortably carry. The rigidity is also a real problem. The only really comfortable soultion I have found so far is to strap it to the exteder bar on my Kelty. But my Kelty with extender bar weighs nearly 6 pounds. Without an extender bar, the cannister tends to flop forward and bonk you on the head! The lighter and smaller new external frame packs have a bent small extender (supposedly to give you head room), that tends to set the bear cannister farther back, hence, away from your center of gravity.

It looks like I will have to go custom or specialty to get a suitable pack. Thanks for the links to those sites. I already own 4 packs - amazing how we accumulate stuff that we think is going to work then does not!

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#92630 - 03/15/08 09:40 AM Re: Pack manufacturers -- are you listening? [Re: StepChld]
bigfoot2 Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Eugene , Oregon
The 3800 cu. inch capacity is for the pack bag only...add capacity for top and bottom lashing and you have over 4000. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Hammockers aren't stuck up, they're just above it all.

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#92631 - 03/16/08 09:38 PM Re: Pack manufacturers -- are you listening? [Re: wandering_daisy]
Tango61 Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 931
Loc: East Texas Piney Woods
WD,
Here's a far out idea. Have you looked at DJ's self-made pack?
What if you made a rig to carry the bear cannister in front, around mid-section or so. Don't know if that is even feasible since I've never even seen a bear canister. (Or, how that might work with the female anatomy). But, it might offset the load.
Just a thought.

T

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#92632 - 03/17/08 07:40 AM Re: Pack manufacturers -- are you listening? [Re: Hector]
Cloudy Offline
member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 185
Loc: Central California
Quote:
Take a look at ULA? I ordered one recently and am very impressed. I know Bearpaw and BillStephenson also like theirs (I solicited their opinions before ordering mine). The packs are specifically made to hold bear canisters horizontally. The Catalyst should fit your bill, but take a look and talk to Brian if you're interested.


I would second this suggestion. Their prior P-2 pack which I own just fits a Bearikade Weekender horizontally. I had them put in a custom extension sleeve to help somewhat with the loss of volume when carrying a canister. Since the Catalyst is larger, this is probably no longer an issue. I don't know how their packs fit the female anatomy but my ULA pack is the most comfortable one that I've carried to date so I would recommend them highly. You might try checking with them regarding fit.

Alan

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#92633 - 03/17/08 07:55 AM Re: Pack manufacturers -- are you listening? [Re: Tango61]
DJ2 Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 1348
Loc: Seattle, WA
The frame pack you refer to(DJs Frame Pack in Make Your Own Section) has plenty of room for a bear cannister inside the bag. No need to lash it on separately. It fits in the bag nicely, laying on its side.

On the Olympic National Park coast they allow 5 gallon buckets for food instead of bear cannisters. The 5 gallon bucket is too big for me to put it in my pack sidewise. It fits nicely standing up in the pack, however.

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#92634 - 03/17/08 12:59 PM Re: Pack manufacturers -- are you listening? [Re: wandering_daisy]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
I come with bad news, or maybe good. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You are going to either have to buy a custom, or make yer own.

You are very experienced in what you want. You also know of a lot of pack out there. If you haven't found the one you want, and none of the pack suggestion here will work, then I doubt there is one out there that works. Since you already have a bunch of packs that almost work perfectly, there is no reason to buy another that doesn't quite accomplish your goal. If I was in your situation, I would either just suck it up, sew my own, or have one custom made. I think that would be the next logical step. Sorry to restate others. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#92635 - 03/17/08 02:20 PM Re: Pack manufacturers -- are you listening? [Re: wandering_daisy]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
I can't offer more than general advice simply because I don't backpack in areas where a canister is required. I did do a lot of research on packs 2 years ago when I was lightening my load and ditching my 5-lb. Kelty external frame pack, so what I'm describing is based on my research at that time.

I can offer the advice to go someplace besides REI. My experience with them (the downtown Portland store and the "flagship" store in Seattle) is that they carry only a very small fraction of the packs that are available, with less variety each year. (Sorry, my antipathy to REI is showing!) I suggest you try specialized backpacking/mountaineering stores in your area--they might just have something or be able to order it for you, and at least here in the Portland area they were a lot more skilled and sympathetic with my needs than the clerk at REI. I ended up purchasing through the internet. The main problem with that, of course, is that you have to pay the shipping cost to return it if it doesn't work. I felt it was worth it to get the pack I wanted.

I found in trying on numerous packs that quite a few "unisex" packs worked just fine for me, although a lot of them don't. This may not be true for you--I'm female and short (5'3") with a 15" torso but have shoulders (and, unfortunately, hips) that are definitely broader than the average person of my height. But it's certainly worth a try. Like you, I suspect that there is a lot of sexism involved in women's gear, and not just the horrible "Bink and Burple" colors they come in. I wouldn't be surprised if the manufacturers do expect that anyone wanting their woman's packs will have a man to carry the bear canister. More likely, though, the idea of a woman's carrying a bear canister probably never even occurred to them!

I ordered, as my first choice, the Six Moon Designs Comet with the optional stays. It was my first choice for several reasons--it has load lifters, it was the lightest of the packs that met my specs and it's made by a local (for me) firm so I wouldn't have to pay shipping costs. I adjusted it down to its shortest torso length (15"), loaded it up with all my gear and the equivalent of a week's food, and it fit as though specially designed for me! That doesn't mean, of course, that it will work for you! It would carry a bear canister, I'm sure horizontally although it might have to be inserted vertically and then turned (the extension collar is slightly narrower than the rest of the pack). I'm going to visit my youngest son's family after Easter and can test it with his Bear Vault 400 if you're interested. I haven't tested the Comet's load limit--I've been up to 29 lbs. (sherpaing both for granddaughter and sick grandson) and that was definitely the limit for my bum knee hiking on loose sand (beach at high tide), although the pack itself felt fine. That occasion was the only time I've completely used the extension collar. My only complaint was that after a year some of the stitching came loose (nothing critical, though; in fact, it looked suspiciously like a basting thread). Ron Moak fixed that for free. I believe this pack would be worth your checking out--you might want to give Ron a call.

Like others here, I also suggest that you call Brian Frankle at ULA, talk to him about your problem and see what he can do for you. Based on his reputation, I would have gone there first except that with a 15" torso I was limited to the Catalyst, which was a little heavier than I wanted (it was #2 on my list, but since #1 was perfect for me, I never got that far). I suspect the Catalyst might be a little better for your needs since it's a little bigger and can carry more weight than my Comet.

Good luck!
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#92636 - 03/18/08 09:43 AM Re: Pack manufacturers -- are you listening? [Re: finallyME]
Berserker Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 493
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
WD, being of a "wierd" body shape myself (tall and lanky), I have to agree with finallyME here and refer you back to the thread where you and I went back and forth on McHale packs (which is probably why you made the "I would rather not pay $500" for it comment). I'm not saying you have to buy a McHale, but I would gather that your needs and wants will only be filled by a custom pack. Just think of it as an investment as you seem to get out a good bit. I know my pack was expensive, but I would pay that much again in a nano second for the comfort I now have. Plus, you can get all the features you desire. And like I said in that previous thread, if you look at McHale packs check out the Popcan. It is exactly what you are looking for as far as being able to carry a bear can horizontally.

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