crampon question

Hello all, First time poster, LONG time reader of this great site!! My wife and I are going to RMNP at the end of this month to do some winter hiking. My wife and I are experianced spring/summer/fall backpackers but never done any winter packin. We are going to be purchasing crampons and just wanted an opinion on which would be better. Neither of us have mountaineering boots, just regular heavy Merrell hiking boots. So we are looking at the Black Diamond Contact Strap 10pt crampon www.rei.com/product/745464 and the 12 pt Petzl Charlet Vasak Flexlock crampon www.rei.com/product/766573 . I was just curious if there was anything special about one or the other, or if there was another crampon that would be recommended.. Thanks in advance... Dave

Any particular reason why you narrowed your choices to those two? There are certainly less expensive options available. If backpacking is all you're planning on doing, quite frankly, I'd go for snowshoes instead.

MNS

What MNS said.

Also, IMO any situation dangerous enough to require crampons like that also requires an ice axe as a safety tool and the third part of the triad......the training and experience necessary to use them.

You mentioned hiking, not mountaineering. Your two choices may be overkill.

But then again, you were not specific about the type of terrain/surface/angles you expect to encounter. If you just want to hike on icy trails with no high angle travel I suggest Kahtoola crampons or even their Microspikes .

The downside of the Kahtoolas is that they lack anti-balling plates which can be very handy in some conditions.

I think you should do some research on what you're likely to encounter and then choose a crampon based on your needs. Everything is a compromise.

I will assume that because neither you or your wife have mountaineering boots you also lack mountaineering experience. If this is the case, don't get mountaineering crampons for what appears, to me, to be use on trails or snow; learn to kick steps instead. If you anticipate stretches of hard icy trail, consider instep crampons or ice creepers. Don't get front point crampons for trail work; they are intended for much higher angle work than you are likely to see and, in general, can cause more problems than they solve.

If you have no experience and training with full-boot, hinged mountaineering crampons, you can get badly hurt or even dead. At the very least, you could be prone to ankle injury from self-spiking yourself. A worst case would be sliding down a snow or ice slope into a pile of rocks from incorrect technique. If you choose to go ahead with the full-boot crampons, be sure to practice with them, a lot, on gentle slopes before you find yourself really needing them. During the practice sessions you will find yourself stumbling over the spikes and kicking yourself in the back of the ankle a lot. It is the ankle kicking that has me recommending against front point crampons.

To me, crampons would be an equipment item purchased after I had bought a good pair of mountaineering boots, a good rope and ice axe and had acquired the ability to competently and knowledgeably use all of them.

Finally, you would be amazed at how much colder your feet get once you put on crampons.

What PIKA said.
Those are ice climbing crampons for experts with the correct boots and maybe Kevlar on the bottom of their climbing bibs. Without an ice axe, these crampons could be the death of you as they are always used as a part of a system. These crampons must be attached to very rigid boots, unlike hiking boots. There would be no way for you to even use them without crampon boots.

But to reiterate PIKAS most important point - you can easily tear up your leg or ankle by getting a front point jabbed into it. Go for instep crampons which simply give you some extra traction and 4 teeth attached under the middle of your boot.

Jim

Jim... the crampons listed are not technical climbing crampons - they can be used with flexible soled boots... don't require a rigid mountaineering boot.

But Trailrunner and Pika are correct, crampons are part of a system that includes an ice-axe and training in self-arrest techniques. They are generally used for glacier travel and higher angle (compacted) snow travel. Crampons with front points are notorious for causing cuts in the ankle area, and they also tend to 'catch', which can lead to some nasty injuries from falls.

MNS

[quote=midnightsun03]Any particular reason why you narrowed your choices to those two?

We chose these two particular crampons due to the fact that we want to begin to learn basic mountaineering skills but nothing that would require vertical or near vertical ice climbing... So at this point we were just wanting something that we could use with our current setup that would allow us the most variety as possible for future mountaineering..

I bet it probably would not be too difficult to make some anti-balling plates for the Kahtoolas out of plastic.... But the only downside that I see for these are that they are made of aluminum.

Since you say you plan on getting into mountaineering..... get the 12 pt Petzl Charlet Vasak Flexlock. These are great general purpose pon's. I love mine. Maybe a bit TOO SHARP for beginners though.

That is a fair answer, however I'd like to add an additional $.02 about mountaineering. Hiking and mountaineering are two distinct pursuits. There may be some crossover in equipment, but location and tools needed for those locations are quite different. Traditional lightweight style (leather and fabric) hiking boots are not appropriate footwear for mountaineering conditions, and even with hinged crampons that allow bend in yoru walk, hiking with crampons will be a pain in the @$$. When you're hiking in winter you will either need floatation or traction, both of which can be achieved with snowshoes or ice cleats. Crampons, when hiking, would definitely be a case of too much of a good thing being very bad indeed.

I totally understand the desire to build up your equipment supply by building on what you already have, but as both a hiker and someone who has learned mountaineering techniques, I strongly recommend you keep your foot gear unique to the pursuit. If you want to purchase gear you'll be able to use as you get more into mountaineering, look at the MSR snowshoes. I think you'll find that to be a good compromise.

MNS

That is very good information that I personally did not think about... We are wanting to learn mountaineering skills and techniques so we can begin to do some beginner/moderate mountaineering... what would be the reccomendation for learning the basics of mountaineering? (we are not going to be self taught lol) Find a school that teaches the basics or be-friend an experianced mountaineer and learn as you go? are there any good mountaineering schools in the Denver area that you might suggest we check out to learn the basics from? Thank you all for your very informed posts!!

Go to school. I took a 10 day mountaineering class years ago and although I never did any real climbing after that, it was worth it. I did my course in New Zealand, so no recommendations for classes here, but I know in CA there are several good schools. A basic class will teach you (at least mine did), how to walk with crampons, how to use an ice axe, including self-arrest, basic rope technique, glacier travel, crevasse rescue (not applicable in most part of the US I don't think), basic climbing techniques and basic mountain safety including how to place protection. We didn't use beacons, but I would definitely learn how to use one. I've probably left out a few things.