Very warm down/insulated jacket/sweater

Hi,

I am looking for a warm down/insulated jacket/sweater. I get cold easily and so am searching for something that will keep me warm, all seasons, between say 10 degrees and 50. My intent is to keep it in my pack and take it out for stops, camping, and really cold weather (I live in CO). Here's what I am thinking:

- something that is durable and well-made
(I checked out some down jackets and saw feathers sticking out of them and wondered about quality)

- if looks matter (hate to admit they do!), I'd prefer something that doesn't make me look like the Michelin lady

- a hood would be nice but optional

- I have a GoLite gortex jacket so I am not concerned with the coat being treated for waterproofness.

- Breathable

I will likely buy used or recycled since I try to be a "green" shopper.

Thanks much!!

Enjoy,
Annie

You don't say anything about budget. Montbell and Patagonia, amongst others, sell products that fit your description. But they are pretty pricey. The Patagonia one currently lists for about $200, although they can be found for less. Montbell calls their's a "Down Inner Jacket" and it lists for about $145. There are other makers like Go-Lite, Cloudveil, and Marmot, but they aren't going to be any cheaper.

If that's too rich for your blood, keep an eye out on eBay or Gear Trader for a good used one. There's also Sierra Trading Post, but they are going to be hit and miss. Campmor is another great site to watch for sales.

Down is next to impossible to contain in a garment. It's pretty normal for a few random feathers to escape. But that's not to say feathers should be constantly coming out, either. If it's more than one or two feathers leaking out, it probably is a sign of poor quality (or abuse).

Synthetic will be a cheaper option. I have been very pleased with a Patagonia Micro Puff pullover that I picked up on sale a few years ago. It packs a lot of warmth for the weight and cost significantly less than down. Another good product is the Montbell thermawrap line.

One more thing, I don't think a down "sweater" will keep you warm down to 10 degrees. That will require a full blown jacket with decent loft. With enough other layered insulation it can work, but definitely not alone.

Another word of caution about down. Moisture is its nemesis, and that includes perspiration. I avoid using down when I'm doing anything strenuous, like hiking. It makes a great belay jacket, but not so great when you're actively perspiring.

I wonder if you have a jacket for in town use that works well for 10*F to 50*F?

I don't.

The 10F jacket would likely have me sweltering at 50F.

I think what you need is some clothes that will serve to take you from 10F to 50F.

Will you be wearing them for sitting, hiking/backpacking or both? The clothing that keeps you warm at 10F sitting will be overkill for hiking at 30F.

A proper vest (and long underwear top) plus your Goretex outer windbreaker will carry you from around 30F to 50F.

For the 10F, I need to pass because I haven't hiked at those temperatures for quite a few years.

Over on backpackinglight.com, Richard Nisely gave a really nice illustration of how energy output, temperature and insulation (and different outfits) combine to give comfort in the outdoors.

It was a little technical.

Rather than hiking, I bicycle through a Midwestern Winter over temperatures from the rare 60F highs down to about 0F, and sometimes lower.

I use a shell, similar to your Goretex shell, but I have all kinds of middle layers and a few different weights of long thermal underwear base layers. The outfit goes from 2 to 4 layers and the nature of the layers changes. Among other things, one layer can be acrylic or wool shirt or it can be 100 weight fleece or 200 weight or 300 weight.

The layers generally ventilate either through full front zippers or buttons so the same outfit will be comfortable at the coldest part of the trip or the warmest. I rarely have to remove a layer and put it in a pannier.

I say all of this to try to illustrate that there is no "magic coat" that does it all.

I suggest that you rethink what it is that you are trying to do. Think layers, not heavy do-it-all coats.

Yeah. Sounds like a pain, but you'll be happier if you learn to live with the temperatures rather than to try to defeat them.

I wear the following:
Patagonia Capilene midweight base layer;
Columbia fleece jacket (200 wt. I think);
TNF Nutpse down jacket;
REI Elements rain jacket.
That combo is good to around 15F with insulated gloves, hat and boots.
If it is really cold-TNF Baltoro down jacket (renamed the Himalayan) with down hood.

Don't expect one jacket to do everything. It won't. The Integral Designs Dolomitti gets good reviews-filled with Primaloft and $300 US with hood. A few leaking feathers with down is normal, as already mentioned.

No first hand experience, but supposedly there is a lot of counterfeit TNF gear online, so watch what you buy.

I'm not sure like really the term 'sweater' being used for anything but wool.

Wool is warm because it insulates well, but also because it has considerable capacity to absorb moisture from the body and recover its latent heat. It takes a considerable amount of moisture before the wool starts to feel damp, and considerably more before its insulating qualities are seriously xompromised. I am not suggesting you SHOULD sweater in a wool sweater, but only that it has considerable latent heat capacity, something that down clothing does not have. If you do wear a down jacket, you should definitely consider wearing a wool sweater underneath it. Once you do, you may find that adding and removing a simple light wind shell over the wool sweater is sufficient. Alot of people need to rediscover wool sweaters. They don't lend themselves to mass production, but you can choose your wool and choose your knitter, and often get a much better item of clothing for the same money or less than an expensive or mid priced down jacket.

Down has its place in thick winter parkas, but not sweaters.

p.s. That Gortex jacket looks like a nice piece of kit. I would suggest getting a wool sweater to go with it, not a down layer. In a dry climate you could try an alpaca wool sweater, but a coarse sheeps wool will hold up better in the long run, and is better in wet conditions. You can wear a merino wool or silk or synthetic base layer under it, but on warmer active days just the sweater alone. In rain or just cold camp or even slow cold hiking you can wear the Gortex jacket over the sweater, and just take it off now and then when you are more active so that it can lose some moisture. Its pretty easy to keep a wool sweater dry if you just keep it on and add and remove the other layers. That leaves more room in your pack also.

Go-lite Gortex Jacket 13oz
https://www.golite.com/Product/proddetail.aspx?p=AM1735&s=1
Nice looking piece of kit. I will try one for sure some day.

These are Briggs & Little Yarns.
http://www.briggsandlittle.com/wool/products.asp?id=yarn&PROD=4006
For a single knit sweater, as part of a system for temps 10F to 50F, I would suggest using either the Aran or Atlantic. The Heritage would give you a great light/medium sweater but would take longer to knit. The Super would be the fastest to knit and give you a great heavy winter sweater, but might be a bit heavier than you want. If you can wear wool on bare skin this could be a good choice though, as you could keep it on when active on warm days by wearing it alone. Probably not your cup of tea, but that's what I do. Silk is a great baselayer for under wool.

Heritage = 215 yards/4oz ~ 17oz per square yard, ~35,000 stitches
Aran = 183 yards/4oz ~ 19oz per square yard, ~31,000 stitches
Atlantic = 136 yards/4oz ~ 22oz per square yard, ~24,000 stitches
Super = 85 yards/4oz ~ 28oz per square yard, ~15,000 stitches

Here is a lady that's knit some great sweaters, to gives you an idea of what can be done.
http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~amcmast/knit.html
(you will have to cut and paste that url but it works)

Here is a list of Canadian Sheep Breeds...
If you search wool you will get s sense of the many different breeds of sheep for wool. Breeds like Shetland and Merino are well known for warm fleece for fine knits, but breeds like Cotswold and Icelandic are often better for medium/heavy sweaters.
http://www.cfagrf.com/sheepinv.html#inventory

I recommend the Mountain Hardware Phantom Jacket. No hood. It's filled with 800 fill down and packs down real small in your pack. Weight is 19oz. Fits well over my other four winter layers, but sizing is a bit small in men's.

Earylite
http://sectionhiker.com

They make good sleeping bags.

I have a go-lite down hoodless jacket that is great. Very light, very warm, and I got it very on sale (~$100).

But now I really like the idea of a hooded down jacket, especially for wearing inside a quilt to turn it into something that could handle a rare below freezing fall night.

These things last forever, so consider spending the money on exactly what you need!

Hope this helps.

Have to say, if you're relying on the used market you'll be at its mercy. Light shell material, lots of high-loft down, and a detatchable hood would be a winning combination.

Brand doesn't matter so much, so long as it's a known player with a track record of making good garments. What will be difficult is distinguishing between the lower and higher loft down options that exist within most brands. Only the top makers such as Western Mountaineering and Feathered Friends exclusively use top quality down in all their garments. Pretty much every large maker has two loft grades.

If you haven't already, familiarize yourself with how the high-grade jackets look and feel, and learn to look for fill gaps in the individual baffles and check how easily compressable they are, and how quickly they spring back. You'll want to check these qualities when looking at used jackets.

I just got the Patagonia Down Sweater. I wouldn't say it's warm to 10 degrees, but I did shovel snow in it at about 20 degrees and was comfy. As far a michelen man arms - beware this sweater. The upper arms are sized really weird so your biceps look like popeye! I didn't care much about looks, but you might be able to find something better looking.

One possibility is a Jacket/Parka "System" like the 3-in-one or 4-in-1 systems composed of a shell (insulated or uninsulated) and a removable insulative layer which can be itself used as a light jacket.

Columbia make a lot of these very fashionable.

I would suspect that 20F is readily done with these, as some use them for ski jackets. 10F may be doable, but maybe not for sitting around in camp at 10F.

This is not a single jacket, but a layering clothing system which sort of looks like a jacket/parka.

You can do the same thing with a shell and a selection of light and heavy fleece zip-ups underneath.

A 300 wt fleece jacket with underarm pit zips ( eg like the Karbon models I own) is good for 0*F bicycling and may be good for 10*F passive activity.

Thank you everyone!!
I learned much through this thread and appreciate all of your feedback. I finally purchased the Patagonia Micro Puff - I liked the reviews on it and it's insulated not down. Also, it's made a recycled materials and was on sale; big pluses I've been wearing it with a non-cotton turtleneck and Lowe Alpine lightweight sweater and have been comfy. In fact it's so light I can forget that I am wearing it! Yes, the shoulder area (like in the Patagonia down sweater) is bigger, but I like that as I have free arm motion. It hasn't been too cold here in the CO front range so I haven't put it through that test yet, but it does block wind exceptionally well.

Thanks again and happy hking!
Annie

How low a temperature you can be comfortable in it will depend on quite a few variables. I have found that in camp, it's pretty good to about freezing, maybe a few degrees cooler. I haven't really tested its limits when I'm on the move.

Annie

You are wearing the coat with insulated pants or preferably bibs right?
Jim