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• Thinking of Getting a Bibler ?
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• Bibler, Thumbs Up From Me !
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• Patagonia - Painless !
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• Marmot - Good but Slooow !
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• Feathered Friends - POOR !
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Subsequent to purchasing a piece of gear, what support have you received from the manufacturer and/or retailer.

Like all the other gear review sections, this page depends on you for input  !

Thinking of Getting a Bibler ?:

Here is a story of my experience dealing with Bibler (recently bought-out by Black Diamond) which I would like to share with anyone considering buying a Bibler tent / product.

I purchased my Bibler Awhanee two years ago, after a nine month fanatical period of research into the best all-in-one tent I could purchase. I read every catalog blurb, every magazine review, and every internet posting I could find, and compared dozens of makes and models.

After this search, I came up with the Bibler Awhanee. I must admit, I loved this tent, and not just because it cost me over $700, but because the design and construction were absurdly well thought out and executed. It is a true four season tent, and was supposed to weigh-in at 5 lbs 4 oz (more on this later).

To make a long story long (I must be thorough to be fair), over a year ago, I sadly setup my tent on some pine needles in the Sierras that were like porcupine needles. End result - over a hundred little pin holes in the floor. Understanding that one buys a tent like this (or any other tent for that matter) to keep oneself dry and comfortable, I decided to find out what it would cost to have the tent floor replaced by Bibler. When I contacted Bibler, (the Bibler not yet bought out by Black Diamond) they said that the tent floor would be replaced in-house, with a two to three week turnaround, for around $180 dollars.

It was more than I wanted to spend at that time, so I decided to do a home repair, and setup my tent in a small pool of water and used SeamGrip to patch a many holes as I could detect leaking through. I was fortunate (backpacking mostly in Southern California and the Sierras) to never run into enough precipitation for the holes to be a factor.

Unfortunately, this August I was sad to discover that my patch job with SeamGrip wasn't quite holding up (much sadness 10 days into the John Muir Trail). So, upon my return, I decided to have the re-flooring done. When I contacted Bibler (the Bibler most definitely bought out by Black Diamond), I was told that they no longer will repair any tents, and that I would have to contact Rainy Pass Repairs in Seattle to have any repairs done. This didn't seem like that much of a problem, until I talked to Rainy Pass.

In the first phone conversation, I was quoted $400, and a 6 to 8 week turnaround. I went quite spastic, to say the least. I called Bibler / Black Diamond to inform them of this unacceptable turn of events, and luckily they agreed, and called Rainy Pass. I later received a call back from Rainy Pass, with the end result being that they would repair the tent for around $200, with a 3-6 week turnaround. After the shock of the first phone call, it seemed almost a bargain (which it really isn't considering you can buy a decent tent on sale for $200).

So I sent my tent to Rainy Pass, and waited approximately 4-5 weeks to receive my tent. When I finally received it, I was stoked - until I opened it. There was definitely something wrong. My tent now had a new tent floor made of blue ripstop nylon. That may not seem that odd, but allow me to explain.

In the Bibler catalog, and in a letter from Todd Bibler himself, there are some statements on materials, which I would like to share.

First: "The floors of all Bibler Tents are black for fast drying in the sun, even in the cold. This is important because a wet packed or stored tent is the primary cause of deterioration and mildew."

Second: "Watch out for tent floors made with coated ripstop nylon. The ridges of the tiny boxes are raised and the coating will abrade easily and cause leaks".

The bottom line is that Bibler does not make it's OEM (original) materials available to it's recommended repair shop. When I contacted Bibler, I was told that they thought that the repair job was good enough, and that there was nothing they would do. I know that there are some of you out there with a ripstop nylon floor (maybe even blue), and think that there is nothing wrong with that. Well, yes and no.

There is an expression that seems to be applicable in most every situation I can think of, and that is "A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link". If my shelter is partially made with an inferior material, do I still have the best tent that I can?

Before you answer, also be aware that the new floor material also added approximately 6-8 ounces to the weight of the tent. And also consider that I also purchased the vestibule for this tent at $125 more. After spending another $200 dollars on the repair, I have over $1000 invested in a tent that is now heavier, will dry more slowly possibly causing irreversible mildew and rot, and be more likely to develop leaks (which will inevitably be deemed wear and tear if I were ever to attempt to get it repaired under any warranty).

Would you be happy? I most definitely was not. So I decided to talk to Todd Bibler himself, as I was convinced that a man who had his name/reputation on the line would surely see my view, and have the tent re-floored with the proper material. I talked to Todd, and after a surprising amount of convincing (surprising in how much was required), he finally agreed to have the tent re-floored with the proper fabric. He told me that he would set it up with Rainy Pass, and contact me soon.

After approximately a week, he called back and informed me that they would not re-floor the tent because Rainy Pass wouldn't do the repair for free, and Bibler/Black Diamond DIDN'T WANT TO SPEND $200 to have the repair done.

I was stunned. After dealing with many other outstanding customer support policies (LL Bean, The North Face, Patagonia to name just a few), I was in awe to see a company in today's market, with such a ridiculous outlook. If I can spend over $1000 on their product (and I was also planning on buying one of their bivy sacks as well), I would damn well expect them to support me on something like this.

Well there it is: You can buy product from Bibler; it is an excellent product in itself, but just hope that you don't need any repairs done on it - you never know what you might get back.

I realize that after this incident, they may well make the materials available to Rainy Pass, but just be aware of what kind of company you're dealing with.

Peace.

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Bibler, Thumbs Up From Me !:

I am not going to minimize the above story on Bibler, but I want to share my own good experience with Bibler/Black Diamond.

Several month's after purchasing a Bibler I-tent, they redesigned the tent, adding a pair of ceiling vents and enhancing the door. I was very disappointed because I hike in the Adirondacks where it gets very damp and would have rathered the new design. I was frustrated because I explained to the folks at Bibler how concerned I was with condensation before I purchased the one door I-tent. I decided to call Bibler and let them know I felt wronged by them not letting me know of the up-coming change in the tent. After explaining myself to Jeff at Black Diamond and another person at the Bibler factory, they decided to exhange my used tent and a modest fee for a newly designed I-tent with two doors. Try doing that with another tent company.

Unfortunately, when the tent arrived, I thought I had a problem with the door awning. Once again, I called Jeff at Black Diamond and explained what I thought was a flaw in the tent. I shipped it out to Bibler but regretted it when I realized I may not have it back for an upcoming trip. Several days later I received a call from Bibler explaining that the tent was fine, the poles just had to be lined up to tighten the awning. When hearing that I was going on a trip in three days, Jeff over-nighted my tent at no charge.

For my money, the above examples illustrate that Black Diamond/Bibler doesn't just have good customer service, they have great customer service. Just because their tents are in a class by themselves (see December 1997 issue of Backpacker), Todd Bibler would not have survived long if he did not pay attention to his customers. By my own account, Black Diamond is continuing this tradition.

Should have the folks at Black Diamond done more for the person in the above story? If you burn a hole in your Marmot shell, should Marmot pay to repair it? If you place your Gregory backpack up against a tree and get pine sap on it, should Gregory pay for the cleaning? If you place your Bibler tent on a bed of sharp pine needles and damage the floor, should Bibler pay to repair it? Who is responsible?

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Patagonia - Painless !:

I've used the vest, extensively, and it has performed well for me in both high-action and no-action modes.

I did encounter one problem, however.  After about a year, one of the shoulder seams popped open, exposing the Puffball's micro-loft innards. I took it down to the local Patagonia store where they asked only for my name and address.

Three weeks later, the repaired, as good as new Puffball was delivered to my door by UPS.

Patagonia is a good company to deal with.

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Marmot - Good but Slooow !:

I took one jacket back to Marmot and asked that it be reworked to look just like the new improved jacket. They said okay and sent it back to the factory with my instructions. THREE MONTHS later, I got the jacket, fully reworked, and good as the new ones. Good job, but sure was slow. I then sent back my second jacket for the same treatment. This time it only took TWO MONTHS. Good service, but could have been a little faster.

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Feathered Friends - POOR !

I'd like to give a counterpoint to your praise of feathered friends. While I agree that their products are of the highest quality, their customer service is so atrocious that I'll never ever buy another product from them again. Here's some specifics of my experiences with them:

1) first off, unrelated to the customer service problems, they significantly under-report the weights of their bags. I've owned two snowbuntings (one goretex, one dryloft) and the actual measured weights were 3 lbs 6 oz and 3 lbs 8 oz (vs. a 2 lb 10 oz spec'ed weight).

2) It took them 3 months to get me my first bag. During this period they continually lied to me about the status, on a number of ocassions telling me that it had already shipped when in fact it hadn't even been sewn yet.

3) I ordered this first bag as part of a pro-deal, and because I wasn't sure of the exact pro-deal price I sent them a check for a little extra (about $20 as it turned out). After finally getting the bag and finding out the exact price, I tried to get them to refund the difference. After 20 phonecalls over a 6 month period I finally gave up, and I've never to this date seen the money. Again, during the course of these phonecalls I was continually lied to and told that the check was in the mail.

4) Last summer the goretex shell on my bag began delaminating, and I sent it in for warranty replacement. I had originally bought the bag during FF's 20th (or 25th?) anniversary sale, when they were offering a free upgrade to 800 fill power down. They refused to use 800 fill down on the replacement bag unless I could produce the 6-year old receipt to prove that the original bag had 800 down in it (they claimed that they didn't keep records that long, and wouldn't take my word for it). Once again, it took considerably longer than promised to get me the new bag; during one phonecall to check on the status I could hear the person who answered the phone talking to someone in the background "there's some bozo on the phone giving me a hard time about his bag; how do I get him off my back?". They also required me to pay a $25 cleaning fee plus return shipping and handling, even though the bag was freshly laundered.

Bottom line: while their products are great, there's no way I could ever recommend doing business with them. It just isn't worth the aggravation and hassle; there's too many other companies out there that have products almost as good, and don't try to screw their customers.

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